Talk:Pál Kinizsi

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Untitled[edit]

His name should be changed to Kinizsi Pál since he was a Hungarian not a Romanian. As much as I know this is not disputed by anybody.

{{templatename| section=section name !! reason=the ethnic origin is under dispute, with no proofs on either side !! time= 09:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC) }}

Pavel Chinezul[edit]

Pavel Chinezul. "Chinez" is the local Banat variant of "cneaz", a Romanian institution of slavic origin. In medieval Hungary you will not find a cneaz who is not a Romanian. It's a bit strange that the modern Hungarians are claiming him. Medieval Hungary was not a national state and the multietnic medieval "Hungarians" are a part of the people that gave them, in this case Romanian people.

I read somewhere that his Hungarian name, "Kinizsi" is clearly borrowed from Romanian, because the regular Hungarian word for "Knyaz" is "kenéz", not "kiniz". bogdan 19:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you can quote an exact reference that clearly proves his Romanian ethnicity or the authenticity of his name "Chinezul" (which, as I believe, also means "Chinese" in Romanian, the name change is unacceptable. 81.182.208.215 07:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His name appears in contemporary documents as Paulo de Kynys. A standard noble name based on the name of an estate. Its translation is Paul of Kynys. Kinizs (currently Kiskinizs and Nagykinizs) is a villagename in Hungary, near Miskolc. So I did not see any evidence that his name is related to the word "cneaz" or he was of Romanian descent. 84.2.210.17 08:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

He was called after his estates, Kiskinizs and Nagykinizs as other Hungarian noblemen of the age. Zello 21:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The estate you refer to, was given to him later in his life. The first mentions of him (by name) are about a simple soldier, as he was not of noble birth. Also there are a lot of romanian legends about his romanian origin. In medieval Hungary religion was much more important than ethnicity. So him being a romanian or hungarian was no big diference in his time. He was catholic, but this was the condition to advance in hungarian social system. Just take a look at John Hunyadi. He was of a certain romanian and still he was catholic. A part of the old romanian nobility kept their status after conversion to catholicism. The truth is than nobody knows if he was a romanian or not. The only historic study I read about him is written by Ioan Haţegan, "Pavel Chinezu – un conducător al luptei antiotomane". He claims that Pavel was romanian, but uses "circumstantial evidence", also the author is romanian so you will not belive him. He was born a simple man so we can not know for sure if he was a romanian or not. So , at least, his name is in dispute, please mention this on the wiki. If the name change is unacceptable, please provide an exact reference about his hungarian origins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.24.22.66 (talk) 09:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, kinizsi like romanian??? ohh.... saddly trie... To all romanian nacionalists!!

The Kinizsi familys name was originali Brankovics, a serb name... so kinizsi wasent hungarian, and of course not romanian idle. Hes origin was serb, but he call him self Hungarian, and this is the important, his personal identity ;)

By.

Hungarus1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hungarus1 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 16:44, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pál Kinizsi → Paul Kinizsi – More common name, as per Google Books results: 887 vs 488. It is more natural to use Paul (which is the English variant of the Hungarian surname Pál) on English Wikipedia. Sidinnou (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Sidinnou (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose current name outnumbers proposal 56-to-8 in 2000-2013 English books. 1800s-1990s books aren't relevant. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, modern historiography use the name variant of Pál Kinizsi, however a redirect from the title of Paul Kinizsi to this article is well-founded. There are problems and conflicts actually which name variant should be used in the case of medieval Hungarian historical person (English first name from Latin version or Hungarian which modern studies use). --Norden1990 (talk) 09:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per reasons above. --Article editor (talk) 02:10, 10 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Szendrő vs Semendria[edit]

The latin-greek name Semendria is used in English sources related to this historical character: The new cambridge modern history, by R. B. (Richard Bruce) Wernham, A History of the Ottoman Empire to 1730 by V. J. Parry. See also the references to the 1441 Battle of Semedria (roughly the same historical context - 15th century Hungary) [1]. Szendrő is used exclusively in Hungarian sources. Sidinnou (talk) 11:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]