Talk:PCCW

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(no title)[edit]

This article is not always very well written. Unless somebody knows the real story it will be difficult to edit it correctly since it is not clear what the original writer meant to say. An example: "Many in Hong Kong cried cronyism, as Hong Kong chief executive Tung Chee Hwa gave away the land to his new high-tech residential and commercial venture called Cyberport." The only person mentioned in the paragraph in which this sentence appears is Tung Chee Hwa. So the pronoun "he" in this sentence would ordinarily be interpreted to refer to Tung Chee Hwa. But giving government property to yourself is not ordinarily called cronyism. So maybe "he" refers to Li?

Another problem. This article is largely composed of one-sentence paragraphs. When every sentence is a paragraph then every sentence is strung together into one large paragraph. Sentences need to be grouped together into groups that fit together to establish a single block in the whole structure of the article. 14:43, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

(no title, 2)[edit]

The name of the company was officially changed from Pacific Century Cyberworks Limited to PCCW Limited. — Instantnood 17:30, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

(no title, 3)[edit]

How about CSL and Sunday in mobile telecom? — HenryLi (Talk) 15:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

-CSL is now not part of PCCW, and Sunday is now renamed to PCCW mobile Bloodstriker (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
CSL was a former subsidiary in 2007 (and present second-tier subsidiary in 2019). Whatever it is former or current subsidiary or not, they should be mentioned. Matthew hk (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

(no title, 4)[edit]

I think this page deserves criticisms of PCCW services Bloodstriker (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

If it had WP:reliable source to WP:verify as well as WP:DUE, then it should be included. Matthew hk (talk) 17:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Lack of references[edit]

This article majorly lacks references. Entire sections could be deleted because of this issue. 8-9 sentences without even a single proof of the correctness? That goes against wikipedia guidelines. 22 references for an article that is so long could shrink down to 22 sentences! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.255.53.7 (talk) 09:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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PCCW Engineering (CASCADE)[edit]

See the RfC close below.

Cunard (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Stevenhksar: It is too long to discuss in your talk page. So far you did not state any WP:reliable source to prove CASCADE = PCCW Engineering, which internal email is NOT a reliable source.

Despite it is a primary source , entry in Hong Kong Companies Registry, shown CASCADE Limited is CASCADE Limited. It did not have name change. It did not prove CASCADE = PCCW Engineering nor disprove CASCADE had a trading name or not, but no source is no source.

Also, it is against wiki policy to preform blanking if such blanking is disputed. Please form consensus with me or ask Wikipedia:Third opinion or WP:RfC or Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard for more users to participate to form a consensus .

May rationale is , the current content of the section PCCW#Cascade was about PCCW forming a wholly owned subsidiary Cascade Limited and centralize its work force of repairing department to this subsidiary in 2002 (see [1] and [2]). And i had dig out a pre-list prospectus of HKT Limited, which claimed Cascade Limited is transferred to HKT. However, pre-list documents are draft that subject to change, as well it is a primary source. (see also WP:primary source). Thus, Cascade Limited may be now owned by HKT Limited which formed in 2008, but since HKT Limited is a subsidiary of PCCW, making Cascade Limited may be a second-tier subsidiary of PCCW. It is totally legit to keep a brief summary for the second-tier subsidiaries of PCCW in this article that about PCCW group.

Since you have a limited English , i had opened a RfC for you. Matthew hk (talk) 09:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)


For your refernce , below data is from File:PCCW-CASCADE.jpgFrom HKT group Intranet ; I will remove it after your reply . [REMOVED - Oshwah] Answer 1: PCCW#Cascade was about PCCW forming a wholly owned subsidiary Cascade Limited and centralize its work force of repairing department to this subsidiary in 2002 . 2. PCCW AND HKT[HKTG] RELATIONSHIP NOT YOUR THINK REALTIONSHIP. FRIST Simple said Cascade Limited is PCCW-HKT[HKT] ENGINEER DEPARTMANT BEFORE 2002, 2002 MAKE CHANGE TO BE A 100% OWN- SUB COMPANY AND 2008 CANCEL THE OLD POLICY AND REBUILD HKT group, so Cascade Limited get back to HKT[HKTG] Group and Change the name to PCCW ENGINNER AND change to HKT ENGINEER SINCE HKT BACK TO STOCK MARKET.FOR Cascade Limited HAS CACNEL THE REGISTER AND NOT USE MORE.

IF YOU WANT A DATA PHOTO FROM HKT INTRANET CAN PROVE AND SEND LINK TO YOU ; IS GOOGLE DRIVE OK?, BUT FOR WIKI UPLORD I DON'T THINK SO.... (talk) 00:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC+8) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenhksar (talkcontribs) 17:04, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Stevenhksar:, you can't use internal email as reference. Matthew hk (talk) 17:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Also, according to the prospectus [1] page 166, yes Cascade Limited was owned by HKTGH, but at page 167 "The Pre-IPO Restructuring comprises two stages: Stage 1: Transfer of certain businesses out of HKTGH, such that HKTGH will hold only the Telecommunications Business.", so it was unable to tell Cascade Limited is a present subsidiary of HKTGH (HKT Limited) or not.
What more importantly , this article can have a brief section about the second-tier subsidiaries of PCCW (the first-tier subsidiaries of HKT Limited), and this is the whole point of RfC. Matthew hk (talk) 17:52, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, you can still said this article is important, but the real world has change since 2008.,now is 2019, still important? https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipOqfylNRHeMi2Hyb8lUN2AQ_5Jmvw8eF-cF1nln [HKTGroup intranet copy] by the way, if you still request second resources from others or media , It would BE Marginal fish .

For other copy page from intranet, you can reference that Engineer intra page is Under PCCW-HKT page.this is not MEAN PCCW-HKT[TELEPHONE], this IS MEAN PCCW-HKT Group[HKTG\HKT Trust \HKT Limited] https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipOKUTXeGI2gGQS_y-Usd2mk3rKGfIpbBkkdn1iO

Finally , here is HKT Group and PCCW Group chart for you reference. https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipPTt0vDhj5IJw3nSNtuOH030U1eqZ4aVZI3PIr_ https://photos.google.com/u/1/photo/AF1QipNWFVdfXpX_rI6sVZi6oCv6QEIWuiCy3LBSOth9

Based on http://www3.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2011/0925/ltn20110925015.pdf .page: — II-82 —

"The employees in the Telecommunications Group are employed by a separate service company, HKT Services Limited, which is indirectly wholly-owned by HKT." has said clear for woker in HKT group since 2008


(talk) 08:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stevenhksar (talkcontribs)

It is called WP:original research with way too much interpretation on primary source. Please read WP:primary source guideline. There is no source with a plain statement "Cascade became PCCW Engineering in X year" in secondary source or published primary source.
Also, the main point is, whatever the direct parent company of PCCW Engineering/Cascade was (or did PCCW Engineering = Cascade or not), there is no point of just blank it in this article PCCW. PCCW Engineering/Cascade is still a division /second-tier subsidiary of PCCW. It may better trim more and expand more in HKT Limited or leave it as it, that the point of RfC. Matthew hk (talk) 12:33, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Global Offering (PDF) (prospectus). HKT Limited c/o HKT Trust. 16 November 2011. Retrieved 16 March 2019 – via Hong Kong Exchanges and Clearing website.

RfC for sections of this article that about the second-tier subsidiaries[edit]

The consensus is for Option A. keeping a brief summary in this article for the second-tier subsidiaries.

Cunard (talk) 23:45, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on sections of this article that about the second-tier subsidiaries:

A. keeping a brief summary in this article for the second-tier subsidiaries. Or

B. just like Stevenhksar, Special:Diff/887194189, Special:Diff/887194125, remove/blanking the sections about the second-tier subsidiaries (including Cascade Limited which had a disputed status as first tier or second tier or not) and expand the sections in Hong Kong Telecom instead.

C. Other proposal.

Matthew hk (talk) 09:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Option A as an inclusionist when it comes to corporate structure and ownership, I prefer more information to less. I was asked here by the RFC bot. EllenCT (talk) 04:27, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Option A - summoned by bot. I like to include subsidiary info, summarized and with links if they have their own articles, with more detail if they don't. If it's uncertain that a subsidiary is actually a subsidiary, and there are no sources, then don't include the subsidiary. One source saying it's a subsidiary is enough to warrant inclusion. Please clarify if I'm missing the point here. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 22:17, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Option A is better. (invited by the bot) I think that the way that this is worded may lead to conflicting interpretations of whichever result. I'm reading option A as "don't avoid brief 2nd tier mentions" North8000 (talk) 16:01, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
May be my wording is unclear. PCCW was established in 1999 (year of reverse IPO) and acquired HKT in 2000. The brand HKT was retired and new subsidiaries were established under the prefix "PCCW", workforce of HKT were fully reorganised into PCCW group. And then HKT was re-birthed in 2008 and in 2011 as another listed company (my so called Matryoshka of companies). Since PCCW still majority owned HKT (>50.1%), and some subsidiaries are unable to determinate their fate: Cascade, or named after PCCW: PCCW Global, it seem to me it should kept the brief description of those subsidiaries of HKT in this wiki article that was about the PCCW group (PCCW and HKT and other subsidiaries). Or may be other editors may find out moving those content to HKT and leaving an even shorter (may be just name) description in this wiki article, would kept this article in a reasonable length. Matthew hk (talk) 17:37, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes - unfortunately the language barrier is difficult. I tried to rewrite the poorly written PCCW#HKT (Hong Kong Telecom) section but am not familiar enough with the group to determine if I captured the info correctly. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 00:07, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment (Summoned by bot) – Just a note to say that I couldn't really understand what the Rfc question is, so I gave up and have no !vote. Otoh, North8000 and Timtempleton seem to have understood it, and perhaps you (User:Matthew hk) could consult with them on new wording (below) and modify the Rfc question for clarity, in order to gain more eyeballs and !votes here. (There's a WP:TPO issue in their altering it directly, and a possible WP:REDACT issue in your altering it, but I think the latter would be okay in the interest of clarity if you follow the REDACT rules (use strikeout and underscore to clearly indicate what you changed) especially if North and Tim were okay with coming back to review/confirm their original !vote after any change in the Rfc statement.) If you do change it, please {{ping}} me and I'll have another look. Thanks and good luck, Mathglot (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Rfc wording[edit]

It sounds like this Rfc is a section re-org question about moving existing article content around, from one subsection to another without changing any content, but it doesn't say that, and I'm not really sure. Or, is it about removing content? Please make a clear statement about exactly what the goal of this Rfc is, and lay out your three options clearly. Mathglot (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

The rfc was due to Stevenhksar of total wipe of any trace of content of HKT's subsidiaries from this article PCCW. So, it may be not 0 to 1 question, but how long or brief the content (for HKT's subsidiaries) should be in this article that about PCCW group, parent company of the HKT group.
See his more earlier edits Special:Diff/887194189, Special:Diff/887194391 and Special:Diff/887194505 and at the same time at HKT: Special:Diff/887194125, Special:Diff/887194349, Special:Diff/887194594 on 11 March 2019. Matthew hk (talk) 18:02, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request on section PCCW Engineering[edit]

Change the section "PCCW Engineering" to Cascade . The citation did not said Cascade = PCCW Engineering.

Also delete

"Started from December 2008, Cascade became a Subsidiary of PCCW-HKT Limited, which PCCW-HKT is still 100% owned by PCCW. The name of Cascade is removed from now on, become a part of HKT and named as "Engineering", a business unit of PCCW-HKT, simply like Commercial group of PCCW. All staff in Cascade had transferred to PCCW-HKT without changing."

It did not supported by the existing citation either. Add [1] as additional citation for the date of establishment. Matthew hk (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

or at least add {{not in source}} or move the cite to the mid of the paragraph and add {{cn}} to 2008 contents. Matthew hk (talk) 13:09, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "PCCW'S STAFF IN CASCADE". South China Morning Post. Hong Kong. 30 November 2002. Retrieved 11 March 2019.
 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Administrators are not allowed to edit a fully-protected page to continue an edit war. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
You'll also be able to make changes yourself in about twelve hours, so if nobody objects, and it looks like this has been sitting awhile with no discussion, you might be able to just do it. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

"Main business" section[edit]

After Special:Permalink/812831301 the "main business" of PCCW became unclear, it seem incorrectly shown the company only had one business called "Commercial and international business".

However, in fact PCCW had telecommunication business that was separately listed as HKT Limited, as well as wholly owned PCCW Media (Now TV, ViuTV), as well as real estate (as listed subsidiary Pacific Century Premium Developments). It may need more citation for PCCW Solutions is belongs to which sub-holding company, but "Main business" section and "Brands and services" section of the article should be merged. Matthew hk (talk) 14:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)