Talk:Pagan's Motorcycle Club

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2004 post[edit]

I have tried to smooth this article out, but it seems as if it is highly POV. The list of motorcycle gangs that have contributed to the California stereotype can probably be whittled down to about five or seven. The majority of the article stands out as an explanantion for their "outlaw" stigma. The paragraph that begins, "Cities are filled with gangs and the criminal subculture so it is not as easy as you might think for a club to survive." doesn't really seem to explain why that makes it hard for a club to survive. The sentence that says, "The Pagan's MC is a motorcycle club first and foremost and as such mirrors the values of the society in which it lives." raises a question also. Which society is being referred to; a mainstream society, subculture, or even a counter-culture? Lastly, if this club is not as responsible for its stigma as we may think then it looks bad when you try to explain it all away. Focus less on the explanations and more on your day-to-day activities as a club. Tell us of the cause(s) you may be aligned with or how it is that you actually do go about achieving the American dream. Don't tell us how we think you go about achieving the American dream. Hmm, that is all I have for now, good luck! Jaberwocky6669 04:34, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

The stigma may be at least partially founded.[edit]

I'm not really a biker, but I do have a Yamaha Vino. Yeah, I know, it's a dinky scooter. Anyway, the Local 16th, which is how the Pagans here in Roanoke Virginia refer to theirselves, (P for Pagan, and P is the 16th letter of the alphabet) tend to be fairly friendly toward me. They don't see my vino as being any less of a bike. I often get affectionate nods from them for riding it around everywhere. At any rate, one day, I stop by one of the bars they frequent to shoot a game of pool. A few of them were talking about having just gotten out of prison for going up to New York City and picking fights with the Hells Angels. Wether they were just blowing smoke or not, I don't know. But at least some members of the Pagans that I am aquainted with are at least deserving of the outlaw stigma. Perhaps not all. It's really a matter of guilt by association. - 09:09, 27 April, 2006 (UTC)

Gang vs. Club[edit]

I reverted the change in category from Motorcycle Club to Motorcycle Gang. The Pagans are, in fact, a motorcycle club. The term motorcycle gang has no concensus definition. Mmoyer 02:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

When you're picking fights with HAMC where people get killed, you're a motorcycle GANG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.166.157 (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent rework[edit]

I removed much unsourced material as follows:

  • Info re Massie's: I could not find any such name affiliated with the Pagans
  • Quote from Sandy Dobkin: No source
  • History info about development timeline: No source

Here is Ms. Dobkins quote:

The Pagan Motorcycle Club was originally formed as an AMA racing team and custom show bike club by Lou Dobkin in 1963. Born 1/7/1941 in Washington D.C. and after serving as a medic in the U. S. Navy, Lou continued his education as a biochemical technician at NIH in Bethesda, Maryland, until his death in 1989. Two of many articles written about his passion for travel & custom bikes - both Triumph and Harley Davidson's - were published in the November, 1972 Custom Chopper magazine.

Wikipedia isn't about what's true, just about what's verifiable. Mmoyer 18:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC) THIS IS SANDI "DOBKIN" AGAIN....I HAVE VERIFIED INFORMATION I PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED AS TO CLUB ORIGINS. WITH MARRIAGE LICENS - DEATH CERTIFICATE - CORRECT NAME FOR LOU - HIS NAVY RECORDS - AND PICTURES....WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SEND COPPIES FOR PROOF TO WIKIPEDIA? I HAVE EVEN VERIFIED WITH CLUB MEMBERS THIS INFORMATION. THEY AT LEAST APPRECIATE THE TRUTH! AND SOME OF THE ORIGIONAL CLUB IS STILL ALIVE TO VERIFY MY STATEMENTS. START BY SPELLING LOUS NAME CORRECTLY IT IS 'D O B K I N' NOT DOBKIN 'S'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.45.244 (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagan's Motorcycle Club[edit]

My Dad Lil'Joe was sponsor by Lou Dobkins the most intelligent one percenter biker to ever live. I have a picture of Lou Dobkins holding a .38 in his right hand a fighting knife in the other. My dad was a Pagan in the 60's and 70's. The Pagan's were rumored to inventors of the drug P.C.P which was called high test green which turned the small club into one of the big four clubs like the Bandidos, Outlaws, and Hells Angels. The Pagan's are still the strongest brotherhood on the EastCoast even though the F.B.I. and rival clubs try to damage the good name of the Pagan's are even trying to buy member's out. Most Pagan's are ex-military and service men. For example the Great Derek J. Hale who was murdered in cold blood by the Delaware State Police, Derek J. Hale was a Marine that served his country proud like alot of other Pagan's did. If society wont honor and embrace our troops the Pagan's M.C. will. If society wont embrace the poor and needy children of America the Pagan's M.C. will. The Pagan's started out with 13 intelligent brave members in the 50's and 60's in Maryland. The Pagan M.C. should be loved and respected by all people who reside on the EastCoast as they have only did the same for citizens of the EastCoast. Pagan's never die only multiply.--24.35.83.148 (talk) 16:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)Joe Clark

This is more legend than reality[edit]

This article is more legend than fact. It is troubling that the legend is more verifiable than the reality. I am working on the real history and I am happy to get the real story from original members. (links redacted) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.171.174 (talk) 02:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based around reliable sources; feel free to contribute here with good citations. tedder (talk) 02:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC)



Pagan's Motorcycle ClubPagans Motorcycle Club — An editor made a good faith move from original name. Although the club patches do read "Pagan's", the name used by virtually every source is "Pagans". Pagan's Motorcycle Club would be the motorcycle club belonging to Pagan, not the motorcycle club composed of people who are pagans. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
  • Comment The naming convention for trademarks says they should be changed to standard English unless the majority of sources use the unconventional form. Some sources use Pagan's with the apostrophe, but most correct it. However, this isn't a case of using an unpronounceable symbol like Se7en, Alien3, or Toys Я Us (see MOS:TM). Keeping the apostrophe is informative to the reader; it shows one of the ways the gang flout convention. I wouldn't want to add an apostrophe to change Hells Angels to Hell's Angels either, because it's over-correction. The official Hells Angels equivocation that "there are many hells" is nonsense -- the truth is their grasp of English grammar just wasn't that good, and they don't care to fix it. Fixing these minor punctuation errors would be like correcting the spelling and grammar of Boyz II Men to say Boys To Men, or changing the The Beatles to The Beetles.

    So I'm pretty sure policy suggests we should remove the apostrophe, but it doesn't strictly demand it as with Toys Я Us, and so I kind of think we should leave it as Pagan's. --Dbratland (talk) 19:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

    • I'm not suggesting that we remove the apostrophe because it may be incorrect, I am suggesting that despite the club patches, this outlaw motorcycle gang is commonly known as the Pagans (with no apostrophe). As an example, this book by a former chapter president uses no apostrophe. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, you are correct: the great majority of sources remove the apostrophe, and policy says that we should go along with that. But I think it's probably also within the bounds of policy to use the name the way they style it, so I don't have strong feelings either way. --Dbratland (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose The move was made following an inquiry to OTRS, where one of the members stated that Pagans was incorrect, as the image on the page clearly demonstrates. Furthermore, I left a redirect from Pagans to Pagan's, so there's no harm in having the page titled correctly. An encyclopedia should be concerned with presenting correct information, not supporting incorrect conventions, however common the may be. Asav (talk) 14:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
    • As I pointed out above, this book by a former chapter president uses no apostrophe. Sending an email to OTRS does not magically make the sender a reliable source. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
      • Obvously not. OTRS ignores a great many requests of this nature, so this was simply FYI. When an OTRS member makes edits, it's done as an editor just like any other. In this case, it's simply because it's the correct title, as I've stated above. So if you have any objections to the move, please address the points I made above. Asav (talk) 05:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
        • Other than asserting that your opinion is correct, you have not made any points that I can refute. We agree that the spelling on the patch is "Pagan's" - that is not in dispute nor does it have any bearing on the spelling of the gang's name in other circumstances. Although both forms of the name are used in books and news articles, I believe that the apostrophe-less version is far more common. The example of a club member preferring "Pagans" over "Pagan's" in their book negates your single email to OTRS. Perhaps you could restate your points for me? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
          • Sure: Pagan's is the correct name, as is clearly demonstrated by the patches the gang itself hands out to its members, so it's a verifiable fact. I left a redirect from Pagans, so it's not going to cause any problems for a user looking for the club. Asav (talk) 07:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
            • Why does the patch "clearly demonstrate" that the name of the group is "Pagan's". To me, it equally clearly demonstrates that the jacket belongs to a member of the club "Pagans". That is, the group is the Pagans, one of whom is a Pagan and the jacket is a Pagan's jacket. All you're showing is that there are at least two people in the world who don't know how to use an apostrophe.120.19.116.42 (talk) 06:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
              • If you do an image search, you'll find that all patches (and tattoos) have the spelling Pagan's, so this is the rule, not the exception. Asav (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
            • Yes, although the patches do say "Pagan's", the name of the club is commonly written as "Pagans" including by club members in at least one published book (as opposed to someone asserting membership in an email OTRS). I'm not sure why you find it hard to understand that the two may be different. Think of the patch more as a logo rather than a literal word. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
What is the collective form of "Pagan's"? Is it Pagan's', Pagan's's or Pagans? --Bridge Boy (talk) 18:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why the apostrophe?[edit]

All this discussion over its presence in the title, with nothing about the history? Are there any references anywhere that mention how the apostrophe originally got on the patch, or why it remains there? —Darxus (talk) 20:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Only thing I've been able to find so far, apparently from a member:

"It's retarded," the Saint remarked once to me when he thought I wasn't listening. "I get that denim is traditional. But look at this." He showed me the club's former top rocker with the embroidered letters PAGAN'S. "There's a fucking apostrophe before the s. It's just gramatically incorrect."

- http://books.google.com/books?id=TKp8H1RMQSoC&q=apostrophe (Prodigal Father, Pagan Son: Growing Up Inside the Dangerous World of the Pagans Motorcycle Club) —Darxus (talk) 21:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


The story I read was that it was a one fingered salute to the Hells Angels who, in an equally grammatically incorrect manner, miss out their apostrophe (i.e. Hell's Angels instead of meaning Angels of Hells at present). I don't remember where that quote came from but, given the enmity between the two, it seems a likely explanation.
What is the truth re the "Nazi and white supremacist badges on the front"? Do the cops just mean swastikas and the double-sig rune sign?
I don't know about the Pagan's but in general, within the biking world, I would argue those things don't mean the same thing, e.g. I've seen black or ethnic minority bikers wearing them, just as I have seen them wearing Confederate flags. --Bridge Boy (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)