Talk:Palestinian National Authority

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Why is the State of Palestine's ISO code and domain shown?[edit]

These should not be included. The PNA is certainly not the same thing as the State of Palestine. The PNA is solely an administrative body with jurisdiction over part, but not all, of the Palestinian territories, and is recognised by all states. The State of Palestine is a proclaimed sovereign state which claims all of the Palestinian territories, which lacks diplomatic recognition from a number of states.

The ISO code and domain originally were designated to the "the occupied Palestinian territories", and later the State of Palestine following its recognition as a state by the United Nations. They were never designated to the PNA.

Rob984 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the demographic details of the Palestinian territories from the infobox for this reason also. Rob984 (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you sure this ISO was never used by the PA? Also, the all of the Palestinian population in the PT, without Area C are citizens of the PA. The PCBS does not include the settler population so I think it is good enough.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:54, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean am I sure? It was assigned to the "occupied Palestinian territories", not the PNA. Unless you have a source that implies otherwise?
Good enough? Except the fact that many of those Palestinians do not live under the PNA, and instead live under Israeli administration. Yes, let's just ignore the fact that the PNA covers less than 50% of the Palestinian territories.
Rob984 (talk) 16:42, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Here: "The proposed sponsoring organisation is the Ministry of Telecom and Information Technology, a governmental department of the Palestinian National Authority." WarKosign 17:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
So? How does that imply is it the domain of the PNA? It is "designated for use to represent the Occupied Palestinian Territory". So someone with no connection to the PNA, living outside of the PNA jurisdiction, could use the domain. The PNA doesn't really have a defined area, it simply has varying jurisdiction over two designated areas. Also what about the ISO code which you reverted my removal of also?
Can you provide sources that directly imply .ps, or the ISO code, refer to the PNA, per WP:NOR? I have explained this to both of you before, "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented". That source certainly does not.
Rob984 (talk) 17:31, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
This source proves this ccTLD was registered by PNA. It is administered by PNINA. It's registration policy talks about "Palestinian" without mentioning PNA or SoP, but when it does - it mentions both, for example "for security organizations of the Palestinian National Authority and the future state of Palestine." WarKosign 14:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
From that source gov.ps is the domain intended for use by the PNA, but obviously that is not a TLD. Anyway, I'm not that bothered about the domain, but can we at least remove the ISO code which is not in any way assigned to the PNA? Rob984 (talk) 14:44, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Here, page 60. PS is associated with "Palestinian territory, occupied" and PNA is listed as list/code source. This document is from 2011, while this page implies that in 2013 the territory was renamed in ISO listing. I'd like to confirm that. If it's correct PS ISO code should be mentioned either here or at Palestinian territories as former/past/historical ISO 3166 code. WarKosign 15:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
The PA covers 40% of the West Bank, but more than 95% of the population. The PA has citizens and we need to include their number.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
The PNA actually does not have "citizens". It has never passed a citizenship law. It issues PNA passports to solely Palestinians born in "Palestine", because there is not a PNA citizenship. The PNA passport does not specify citizenship or nationality either. This is why most Palestinians are stateless. The issuing of PNA passports is also regulated by Israel, hence why they include personal ID numbers defined by the Israeli Civil Administration. I assume the State of Palestine/PLO is wanting to establish a Palestinian citizenship, but getting recognition of their own documents by both Israel and the wider internationally community would be impossible without Israeli cooperation.
Even if it covers 95% of the population, it still isn't correct.
Rob984 (talk) 22:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Dude, here is Palestinian ID. And I can read hebrew, it says "identification card" and "Palestinian Authority".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:07, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
So what? Rob984 (talk) 23:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
By the way, the PNA literally only issues the card. The Israeli Civil Administration chooses who gets a card, and what the card states. It designates the personal ID on the card also. It is in no way a form of PNA citizenship. Rob984 (talk) 23:17, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, my identity card states my nationality, like most countries'. I can't read Hebrew but I doubt that one does. Rob984 (talk) 23:20, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
What do you mean by "my identity card states my nationality"? My ID card states "status: Israeli citizenship". The Palestinian I.D. does not, but it has: the name "Palestinian Autohirity" on and and a personal number that is exactly like the numbers in Israeli IDs. It also has a stamp of the Palestinian Authority's interior ministry in Arabic (I recognize it because it is written the same way "interior ministry" is written in Arabic on my ID. The ID also label your religion. If the Palestinians have an interior ministry, I guess it makes sense they have citizens. In addition to that, there is also a Palestinian passport and it is seperated from Palestinian ID, and the new "State of Palestine" passport is the same, just the title changed. You can see that in the emblem it still says "Palestinian Authority". And there is something angry in your tongue.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment - occupied Palestinian territories and Palestinian National Authority are one and same thing from the UN point of view.GreyShark (dibra) 15:13, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry Bolter, I missed your comment. What you state, "If the Palestinians have an interior ministry, I guess it makes sense they have citizens", is frankly absurd. Like I said, the PNA doesn't have citizenship by simple fact that there is no Palestinian citizenship law. As a result, the only way to obtain Palestinian documentation is to be born in the Palestinian territories. It you are born to parents with Palestinian documentation, but outside of the Palestinian territories, you cannot necessarily obtain Palestinian documentation. This means if you are born in a country which does not guarantee birthright citizenship, you could be stateless. As a result, most Palestinian refugees are stateless, not Palestinian citizens. There is a big question as to whether the millions of Palestinian refugees will ever allowed to return to Palestine. If they had citizenship, there would be no question. For example, Palestinians displaced out of territories after the 1967 Palestinian exodus are not able to return. Does the PNA is refuse these people, born in Palestine, citizenship? Of course not. Israel refuses to allow them Palestinian documentation and the PNA can't do anything to help these people. Without using the term, the UN basically describes this as ethnic cleansing. The past is the past though, right? Sorry if I seem "angry", but what you claim, "I guess it makes sense", shows a complete disregard for the history of the way your country has systematically attempted to cleanse the entirety of the former Mandatory Palestine of Palestinians. Fortunately, it seems highly unlikely your country will succeed at this aim now the international community has woken up.

PS, is it not glaringly obvious Israel effectively controls the issuing of Palestinian documentation, considering like you point out, the personal ID numbers of Palestinians are the same as Israeli personal ID numbers? What did you think, Israel gets to choose who can be a Palestinian citizen? Every country in the world recognises Palestinian documentation because the issuing is conducted in cooperation with the Israeli Civil Administration. Without this cooperation, many countries would not recognise the documentation. This makes any unilateral declaration of Palestinian citizenship pointless at this time. Israel will never allow Palestinians the right to return to the West Bank. Not unless the UN intervenes.

Rob984 (talk) 01:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

There are people who pay taxes to the PNA and to councils that are funded by the PNA. They have a right to vote in PNA elections and must abide the laws accepted by the PNA and in return they are entitled to some welfare. What are they?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
People under a jurisdiction? I figure that's what you mean by "citizen" now. However, you wouldn't talk about "citizens of Paris" just because they live in Paris. Anyway, getting back to what this discussion was about, the PNA doesn't have councils, laws, etc everywhere in the Palestinian territories. Hence they are not synonymous. Rob984 (talk) 11:43, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Permanent residents it what they are. Similarly, there are permanent residents of Israel, who pay taxes and must abide by Israeli law, and are entitled to some welfare. But they are not citizens. Rob984 (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Flag[edit]

@Rob984:According to the Palestinian basic law which is the constitution of the Palestinian Authority whose legislative body, the PLC accepted it in 1997, The flag of Palestine shall be in four colors, and in accordance with the dimensions and measurement approved by the Palestinian Liberation Organization. It shall be the official flag of the country., in accordance to that, the PLO provided the dimensions and measurements: Three equally sized bars, top is black, central is white, lower is green and a triangle, whose lengh is equal to a third of the flag's lengh, and the whole flag is half the lengh of the original PLO flag. I.e. the PLO is describing this: [1]

The law of the PLO is signed by "Mahmoud Abbas , Chairman of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization President of the Palestinian National Authority"

So in a nutshell, the PLC made a law to determine that the PLO will create a flag and the PLO, whose leader is also the leader of the PNA, had released a law in 2006, determining how the flag should look like.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:06, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Except it's called the "Palestinian flag", not the "Flag of the PNA" and has never been designated as the flag of the PNA. The PNA isn't a country, its an administrative body. The PNA deals with wider Palestinian matters, as well as administration of the areas. According to your logic, the Palestinian flag is also the flag of the PLO, PLC, etc.. It has only been designated as the Palestinian flag. Do I need to remind you of our policies on WP:SYNTHESIS? Rob984 (talk) 11:37, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
According to your logic, the PNA never uses the Palestinian flag.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
So every article of a Palestinian-related body which has ever used the Palestinian flag should have it in the top of its infobox? The problem is you think the PNA is like a country. If it were a country, then merely use of the flag would be justification. However the PNA is not a country, it is an administrative body with varying degrees of control over areas and a specific role in the domestic and international representation of the Palestinian people. It was created through cooperation with Israel as a result of the Oslo Accords, and is not an independent entity like a country. The State of Palestine is the PLO unilateral attempt to create a state around the PNA. However, they cannot abolish the PNA, and still must work within the framework of the PNA in relation to the Palestinian territories and Israel, because of the Oslo Accords. Rob984 (talk) 13:39, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Every country is an administrative body. There are countries today that are de-facto not independent while autonomies and federal districts have flags and symbols, dispite only being "administrative bodies". If you happened to forget, even companies or the smallest of shops or businesses sometimes have symbols. My city has a flag and so every little village out there. While not being a country (lacking independence and clear sovereignty), the PNA is a country much more than the SoP, which is no more than an idea, recognized by some UN members and organizations. In 1988 the Palestinians didn't try to create a state. When the PLO failed to take over Jordan in 1970 and Lebanon in 1975-1982, they moved their focus to the West Bank and Gaza and during the First Intifada declared independence which was followed by not a single attempt to actually establish the state. In reality, the Palestinian declaration of independence simply gave the Palestinian National Council another title, and was used to justify UN recognition. The PNA is an entity and this entity wave only one flag. This entity had an observer status in the UN and it was recently upgraded to a "non-member state". The PNA, oPt, SoP... in the eyes of the UN, all of those are the same. The PNA has its constitution, it is called the "Palestinian Basic Law" and in that law, it is said the flag is decided by the PLO and the PLO had decided in 2006 how the flag should look like. I brought you the sources.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
A country isn't an administrative body, it is an administrative area, with the administrative body being its government. I don't see an Israeli flag in the infobox of Government of Israel. The PNA is not an administrative area, instead, it is an administrative body with varying degrees of control over administrative areas. Referring to the PNA as a place doesn't even make sense: "I live in the Palestinian National Authority". And the UN certainly does not see the Gaza Strip and Areas A & B of the West Bank (the PNA's jurisdiction, since it only has a very limited role in Palestinian populated parts of Area C) as = to the occupied Palestinian territories. It does however see the State of Palestine as = occupied Palestinian territories, hence it changed the designation from the latter to the former. Rob984 (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
The Palestinian Authority also has it's own cabinet. Just like the Israeli cabinet, the Palestinian cabinet is accepted the the Palestinian legislative body which is called the Palestinian Legislative Council. The Israeli cabinet and the Israeli Knesset are both the operative and legislative authorities of the State of Israel. The Palestinian cabint/government and the Palestinian Legislative council are the operative and legislative authorities of the Palestinian Authority. While you can't "live" in the Palestinian Authority, you can indeed be a [https://www.btl.gov.il/English%20Homepage/Insurance/Employers/foreignresident/Pages/default.aspx resident of the Palestinian Authority". I don't live in the "State of Israel", I live in a land which is the legal sovereign territory of the State of Israel... While I brought two sources which are not WP:SYNTH, you go too deep in the philosophy of states.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:49, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Maybe that was a poor comparison with Israel's "Government" (I confess I didn't actually check where that link went). Most countries dont have an all-encompassing "Government" body, unlike say, the United States. Instead they have various bodies, including an executive (which can also be referred to as "the government") and a legislature, which form the administration of the country (as in the case of Israel I assume). The PNA is similar to US Government in that it includes all aspects of the national administration. Although this whole comparison is slightly silly since the PNA is not a state, nor part of a functioning state.
Prepare to go even deeper into the philosophy of states... If you live in the "legal sovereign territory of the State of Israel", you either live in an internal or external territory of the State of Israel. If it is internal, you live in the State of Israel. If it is external, you live in outside of the State of Israel, in an area under Israeli sovereignty as a dependent territory. Israel doesn't have any dependent territories, so you must live in the State of Israel, even if that is the disputed territory such as the Golan Heights or Jerusalem, since both have been annexed by the State of Israel. States are places and span geographic areas. They aren't just political concepts.
The use of those sources is synthesis, since they don't directly support the material being presented. I'm only going into the philosophy of states to convince you your synthesis is wrong. I don't need to prove anything since adding synthesis is a policy violation. Although as always, these discussions are always a pleasure.
Rob984 (talk) 21:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
My comments "you can't live in the State of Israel" were sarcastic (although as a very moderate nihilist I do believe in them but not in the current discussion). My point is that the PNA, unlike how you show it, is not only the government, it is the "national authority" and even if it was only a government, just like Israel's government, it uses a flag. Now, in the source I provided it is said clear that the Palestinian Basic Law is the constitution of the PNA. I am honestly not an expert of political science, but I do believe it is states that have constitutions and not the governments. In this case I am really not sure. What I do know is that the two sources I provided are connected to each other. What is the best way to determine if it is synthesis or not?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I think that most of this discussion, interesting though it is, is irrelevant to the question. If the PNA customarily uses a flag, there is no basis in the rules for excluding it from the article. All the other stuff about what type of object the PNA is or of the PNA's right to fly a flag do not come into it. Argue by applying Wikipedia rules for excluding the flag that the PNA flies; otherwise there is no reason to exclude it. Zerotalk 00:23, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the argument is the same as the reason the Federal government of the United States article does not have a flag. The flag is deemed to represent the State, not the governmental authority. Oncenawhile (talk) 05:59, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, ok. I don't have a strong opinion on it. Zerotalk 09:21, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Oncenawhile: Rob had already brought this example. The Federal government of the United State is of the United States just like the Palestinian Unity Government of June 2014 is the government of the Palestinian Authority. Now I"ve brought two sources, the one shows the constitution of the PNA, saying the PLO determines the flag, and one PLO law, that determine the flag according to the Palestinian constitution. How can we determine if this is synth or not and be done with it?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:18, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
The PNA government is only the executive branch of the PNA. The Federal government of the United States is the entire national administration of the United States, like the PNA is for Areas A & B. The Executive branch of the Federal Government of the United States would be comparable to the Palestinian Unity Government of June 2014. The naming of these bodies is irrelevant since different countries/polities name and structure bodies differently.
Unless the source directly implies the Palestinian flag is the flag of the PNA, its synthesis. Eg, a statement saying "the Palestinian flag is the flag of the PNA".
Rob984 (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
So this debate rests on whether the PNA is a government or a quasi-state. I have read the sources provided by Bolter, including the Basic Law. The Basic Law states "the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches". If we take this phrase and replace in the US context, you could not write "the establishment of the United States with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches", but instead you would need to write "the establishment of the United States Government with its three pillars – the legislative, executive and judicial branches" for the sentence to make sense. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
And yet districts and autonomies have flags.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Huh? States, districts etc can all have flags. Governments don't. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Can a national authority have a flag?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It is a government, so it would be more usual for it to have a seal or an emblem. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)