Talk:Palestinians
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Contents
- 1 Sophronius
- 2 East Jerusalem
- 3 Like the Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Maghrebis, and most other people today commonly called Arabs, the Palestinians are an Arab people in linguistic and cultural affiliation
- 4 Move discussion in progress
- 5 Inclusion of Sophronius of Jerusalem in the infobox
- 6 Sea peoples
- 7 Israelis and Jordanians
- 8 Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2015
- 9 Not enough words about the denial of the existance of the Palestinian People
- 10 Genetics
- 11 "Ethnic Group"
- 12 JSTOR article
Sophronius[edit]
Hi,
Somewhat surprisingly, I couldn't find an existing discussion about this, so I'll bring this up: Why is there an image of Sophronius of Jerusalem at the top of the article? As far as I can see, he lived over a thousand years ago, and has little to do with modern Palestinians, except living in the same land.
If it tries to imply that ancient Christians are ethnically Palestinian, it's OK, but why not take somebody more notable, like Saint George, or, well, Jesus? Sorry if seems like ad absurdum, but I honestly don't understand what does this particular person have to do with the article.
I don't even care that much about these image collages on top of ethnic group articles - the inclusion criteria for them are never clear and they frequently tend to be contentious. It's just that this seems like a real exaggeration to me. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- The article is about the Palestinian people, who have a heritage, like all people, and there is not such thing as a pure ethnos, in any case. We are not concerned with racial profiling here, but with people with a millennial culture and traditions associated with Palestine. This is done all over wiki articles on peoples. If one wants to be nitpicky, Sophronius might be challenged as being born in Damascus (Syro-Palestinian in one classification) not in the restricted area of Palestine proper. Of course Jesus could go in there, as could St George and many other early figures. But one group of editors strenuously object (go berserk) if contemporary terrorists (i.e. Palestinians) are associated with historical figures in the deep past. That is why we don't have Jesus, nor St George, though Christian tradition, which is underrepresented here due to nothing more than editorial animus, regards both as 'Palestinians' as over 100 academic sources testify.Nishidani (talk) 11:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- And... Sophronius is... not a historical figure in the deep past?
- To alleviate any doubt - this is not animus, just honest wondering. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sophronius didn't self-identify as of the Palestinian people and therefore shouldn't be included in the infobox. CSWP1 (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not only that, but Palestinian people can no way refer to people before the age of Mandatory Palestine (before the emergence of Palestinian nationalism). Further more, self-identification of a Palestinian is not enough to be a Palestinian, because the most common definition of Palestinian is citizen of Palestine (Palestinian Authority or State of Palestine) or at least someone with a Palestinian refugee status. People like Raed Sallah and Juliano Mer Hamis, whether identifying as Palestinians or not, do not have Palestinian citizenship or refugee status, so can't be included.GreyShark (dibra) 12:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- It seems like you are being sarcastic, but I'll respond anyway. The page for Macedonian people does not include Alexander the Great. Modern Macedonians certainly identify with him, but there isn't a link between them strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Similarly, Palestinian people often associate with Jesus and other figures born around the area of Palestine, but the link isn't strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Sophronius was born in Damascus a millenia and a half ago. He lived and traveled throughout the Med and rose to the churchly rank of Patriach of Jerusalem, where he died. It is conjecture formed mostly on geography to call him a Palestinian person. CSWP1 (talk) 02:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- This article is about ethnic Palestinians, if someone wants to make another page for Citizens of Palestine, be my guest. Regarding ethnic Palestinians, Sophronius doesn't really qualify as he was an ethnic Syrian Arab. Saint George however does qualify as an ethnic Palestinian, his father was a Roman Cappadocian and his mother was ethnically Palestinian. Lazyfoxx (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- "Ethnic Palestinians"? it was just one of the names Europeans called the region, it wasn't a name for a specific people before the early, maybe mid-20th century. Just as there was no "Mesopotamian nation" or "Pennsylvanian people" etc. Yuvn86 (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
- "An ethnic group or ethnicity is a socially-defined category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect and sometimes ideology, manifests itself through symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc."
- Now tell me again how ancestral people of Palestine such as St. George do not qualify for being part of the Palestinian ethnic group? Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- "Ethnic Palestinians"? it was just one of the names Europeans called the region, it wasn't a name for a specific people before the early, maybe mid-20th century. Just as there was no "Mesopotamian nation" or "Pennsylvanian people" etc. Yuvn86 (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
- This article is about ethnic Palestinians, if someone wants to make another page for Citizens of Palestine, be my guest. Regarding ethnic Palestinians, Sophronius doesn't really qualify as he was an ethnic Syrian Arab. Saint George however does qualify as an ethnic Palestinian, his father was a Roman Cappadocian and his mother was ethnically Palestinian. Lazyfoxx (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- It seems like you are being sarcastic, but I'll respond anyway. The page for Macedonian people does not include Alexander the Great. Modern Macedonians certainly identify with him, but there isn't a link between them strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Similarly, Palestinian people often associate with Jesus and other figures born around the area of Palestine, but the link isn't strong enough to cite on Wikipedia. Sophronius was born in Damascus a millenia and a half ago. He lived and traveled throughout the Med and rose to the churchly rank of Patriach of Jerusalem, where he died. It is conjecture formed mostly on geography to call him a Palestinian person. CSWP1 (talk) 02:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- Not only that, but Palestinian people can no way refer to people before the age of Mandatory Palestine (before the emergence of Palestinian nationalism). Further more, self-identification of a Palestinian is not enough to be a Palestinian, because the most common definition of Palestinian is citizen of Palestine (Palestinian Authority or State of Palestine) or at least someone with a Palestinian refugee status. People like Raed Sallah and Juliano Mer Hamis, whether identifying as Palestinians or not, do not have Palestinian citizenship or refugee status, so can't be included.GreyShark (dibra) 12:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Sophronius didn't self-identify as of the Palestinian people and therefore shouldn't be included in the infobox. CSWP1 (talk) 03:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Because the modern Palestinian identity is heavily if not entirely based on a shared Arab identity, usually strongly associated with Islam too. St. George was a Palestinian in the sense that he came from Palestina, but he was far from Arabic, and he probably didn't share the ancestral, social, cultural, national, religious, mythological identity that most if not all modern Palestinians identify with. Same goes for ritual, cuisine and dressing style. As for physical appearance... No one really knows, though he was probably Mediterranean olive, the same can be said of anyone from Hebron to Granada. Guy355 (talk) 13:41, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
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- 1. Ancestral: Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.
- 2. Religious: St. George's mother was a Palestinian Christian, the same Palestinian Christianity is still alive and flourishing today in Palestinians.
- 3. Social: St. George is venerated as a Palestinian hero and icon socially, Why St. George is a Palestinian hero.
- 4. Physical Apppearence: This is more inclusive than guessing someone's skin tone as you did, St. George was no doubt similar looking to other Palestinians, and the Palestinian phenotype (physical appearence) did not drastically change in the last 1800 years. Reconstruction of a Palestinian face in the time of Jesus. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think that you mix things here. Palestine was a name for a land, and that's not necessarily the same as a people/ethnicity/nation. Take my Mesopotamia example above, were the ancestors of current Iraqis belong to a "Mesopotamian nation"? And things get more complicated if you take into consideration that before Israel's independence, it was actually Jewish Zionists who were often called "Palestinians" (for example, Mandatory Palestine national football team was all Jewish, not Arab). Yuvn86 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think you mix up things here, you are talking about modern Nationalism, I am talking about ethnicity. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's what I meant. Not nation-states, but group identities. And someone like St. George didn't speak Arabic, wasn't Arab, and wasn't culturally Arabized either. So what exactly is the ethnic connection between him and someone like Arafat or Amin Al-Husseini? he doesn't really belong here, just like he doesn't belong in the Israelis article either. Yuvn86 (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- The fact that he didn't speak Arabic, wasn't "Arab", and wasn't culturally Arabized is irrelevant to him being ethnically Palestinian, as Arabization of Palestine happened after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century.
- As I said before, he is ethnically Palestinian on these grounds,
- 1. Ancestral: Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.
- 2. Religious: St. George's mother was a Palestinian Christian, the same Palestinian Christianity is still alive and flourishing today in Palestinians.
- 3. Social: St. George is venerated as a Palestinian hero and icon socially, Why St. George is a Palestinian hero.
- 4. Physical Apppearence: This is more inclusive than guessing someone's skin tone, St. George was no doubt similar looking to other Palestinians, and the Palestinian phenotype (physical appearence) did not drastically change in the last 1800 years.Reconstruction of a Palestinian face in the time of Jesus.
- 5. Linguistics: St. George spoke Greek and Aramaic, the latter being a heavy influence for the Palestinian dialect of Arabic today. The Greek and Aramaic languages are also preserved by modern Palestinian Christians.Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
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- It is nothing but an ideological hostility to deny Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who have a tradition of living continuously in that land longer than most of the present Israeli Jewish population, images of their cultural forebears. I think Sophonius can go out, but two or three Palestinians of antiquity should be added to stop this racist denialism and keep the article in harmony with the facts Nishidani (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- ^ I agree wholeheartedly. Sophronius may be removed as per the reason I explained above, but denying the use of antiquated ethnic Palestinians is absurd in all regards.Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's not about denying anything, it's just the simple fact that there wasn't a Palestinian ethnic or group identity before sometime in the 20th century, so it's false to describe ancient figures as Palestinians. Have you ever heard of "ethnic Saharans"? wouldn't you laugh if someone will tell you that? And if we take someone like Jesus for example, he was a Jew born in Judea, not Palestinian-Arab born in the West Bank. This article is about the modern group and their identity, that's why he's not here and not in the Israelis article either. Yuvn86 (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- ^ I agree wholeheartedly. Sophronius may be removed as per the reason I explained above, but denying the use of antiquated ethnic Palestinians is absurd in all regards.Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- It is nothing but an ideological hostility to deny Palestinians, and especially Christian Palestinians, who have a tradition of living continuously in that land longer than most of the present Israeli Jewish population, images of their cultural forebears. I think Sophonius can go out, but two or three Palestinians of antiquity should be added to stop this racist denialism and keep the article in harmony with the facts Nishidani (talk) 18:27, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
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- That's what I meant. Not nation-states, but group identities. And someone like St. George didn't speak Arabic, wasn't Arab, and wasn't culturally Arabized either. So what exactly is the ethnic connection between him and someone like Arafat or Amin Al-Husseini? he doesn't really belong here, just like he doesn't belong in the Israelis article either. Yuvn86 (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think you mix up things here, you are talking about modern Nationalism, I am talking about ethnicity. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think that you mix things here. Palestine was a name for a land, and that's not necessarily the same as a people/ethnicity/nation. Take my Mesopotamia example above, were the ancestors of current Iraqis belong to a "Mesopotamian nation"? And things get more complicated if you take into consideration that before Israel's independence, it was actually Jewish Zionists who were often called "Palestinians" (for example, Mandatory Palestine national football team was all Jewish, not Arab). Yuvn86 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
So are we OK with taking out Sophronius? If the infobox is restricted to only people who self-identified as Palestinian, that would make our working definition (for the infobox, NOT the whole page) much easier. CSWP1 (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
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- The Sophronius image should be removed only if a compensating figure identified as 'Palestinian' in reliable sources replaces it. There are many of these, as I think, archives show. What is intolerable is the removal of Palestinian figures from the past to deny them traditional roots. Any one in the Christian history of Palestine, revered by that local tradition, can replace him, like Eusebius or Sozomen, or a saint. That is the sine qua non of any removal.Nishidani (talk) 10:46, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
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- Sorry, self-identification is not the requirement for one to be part of an ethnic group as I explained above. Rashid Khalidi, a well known historian, explained that the modern Palestinian people now understand their identity as encompassing the heritage of all ages from biblical times up to the Ottoman period. As I said previously and I will continue to say, antiquated figures such as St. George fit the criteria for being part of the Palestinian ethnicity and I stated the criteria in my previous replies. Sophronius may be removed as he was ethnically Syrian from Damascus, and I haven't seen a source referencing him as Palestinian, if one is presented, we may discuss further. But any objection to known historical Palestinians such as St. George being included is absurd. Lazyfoxx (talk) 04:15, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Lazyfoxx, first of all, I think you should be commended and appreciated for putting the montage together, it is well done and adds beautifully to the article. I also think that changes should not be motivated by animus to either Palestinians or to the Palestinian sense of connection to the past. At the same time, the article itself defines Palestinians as "modern descendants of the peoples….," hence no pre-modern figure belongs to the "Palestinian people" (i.e., article title). Accordingly, if at some point, not necessarily now if you are feeling uncomfortable with this conversation per se, you decide to replace Sophronius with a modern person, that would be consistent with the article. Take care, HG | Talk 13:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- That Palestinians are 'modern descendants of the peoples' is true of Jews, Iraqis, English, Welsh, all ethnicities and nations, who descent from forebears obviously. Why are we making an exception when, as the archives show, massive numbers of scholarly RS have no difficulty is describing earlier figures as 'Palestinian'. In patristic literature Eusebius was known as "Eusebius the Palestinian” (Marcellus of Ancyra, Basil of Caesarea etc). Wikipedia's objection to this is politically and ethnically motivated as often the case. It denies, uniquely, to Palestinians a link to any premodern past, and this is done in defiance of scholarly sources that are not hung up on politics. It is quite improper to see endless insistence throughout articles on Jewish attachment to the land of Israel, the ethnic roots of all Jews in Palestine/Land of Israel, and at the same time see many editors denying any natural continuity for Palestinians with the land of their forebears. To sustain this imparity is a violation of NPOV surely. Most modern Palestinians have far longer genealogical ties to continued occupation of that land than the majority of Israelis. I say this not polemically. Families like the Khalidis, Husseinis, and Nusseibeh possess genealogical records going back to the 7th century, and intermarried with local (converted Jews, pagan Greeks et al. and Christians) from earlier times. It's to me unbelievable that an attachment to a territory by an ethnicity that has one and a half thousand years of continuity at a minimum in the Islamic case, and 2,000 years in the Christian Palestinian case, is not allowed to be translated into an identity with historic roots like the Welsh, the Armenians, the Jews, the Italians or anyone else, simply because a political expression for it in state terms is lacking. All state national identities were created from the 16-17th century onwards, and in every case, congeries of territorially united people were then retroactively given an historic identity by their national literature. The Palestinians are no anomaly (except on Wikipedia) for this process. Like everyone else, Israelis included, Palestinians are an imagined community, but are denied it by, well, mostly editors who have a similar, very strong emotional and ethnic identification for the same land, and cannot, for lack of imagination, see that the logic applies to their 'other' in that territory. Nishidani (talk) 14:20, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Lazyfoxx, first of all, I think you should be commended and appreciated for putting the montage together, it is well done and adds beautifully to the article. I also think that changes should not be motivated by animus to either Palestinians or to the Palestinian sense of connection to the past. At the same time, the article itself defines Palestinians as "modern descendants of the peoples….," hence no pre-modern figure belongs to the "Palestinian people" (i.e., article title). Accordingly, if at some point, not necessarily now if you are feeling uncomfortable with this conversation per se, you decide to replace Sophronius with a modern person, that would be consistent with the article. Take care, HG | Talk 13:16, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yitzhak Rabin was born in Jerusalem, and is, obviously, not considered to be part of the "Palestinian people". Arafat, however, was born in Egypt, and is considered one of the most famous Palestinians. So why is that? because Rabin wasn't Arab, and Arafat was. So it's further proof that Lazyfoxx's "ancient ethnic Palestinians who were of many ancestries" argument doesn't hold water. Yuvn86 (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for effectively stating that an ethnic Ukrainian Ashkenazi Jew is not a part of the Palestinian ethnic group, but I think that is common knowledge. The reason Arafat is Palestinian is because he fits the criteria for being part of the Palestinian ethnic group. Regardless if he was "Arab" or not. A person's nationality (where they were born) is not always an indicator of ethnic origin. And again I will say, I think you're confused in this matter. Make sure to read adhere to Wp:NPOV. I suggest actually reading Nishidani's last post and not glossing over it to only respond to me, he explains the situation on this page accurately. Lazyfoxx (talk) 15:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Lazyfoxx, I did read Nishidani's last post. But the comparison with, say, Welsh does not work. The Welsh are not defined in terms of the modern period, as in this article. Nishidani is also incorrect about Iraqis, who are defined as modern citizens and their photo montage does not include ancient Babylonians. My only concern is that the photo montage match the article definition. You could propose to change the definition instead of this image, but presumably the article text reflects a consensus or compromise, which should be respected until modified. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- I was adressing Yuvn88 above, is that you? But anyways, regarding Nishidani's post, his statement about the other ethnicities is just an example of ethnic group identities, all of those ethnic groups are obviously today Modern descendants of their respective populations. Wikipedia is full of editors that will seek to change the way certain ethnic groups are defined on basis of animus. The Palestinian article, like any other ethnic group, is not a place for that, as scholarly sources confirm the Palestinian identify and ethnic group encompassing the historical figures. An example, as I said previously, Rashid Khalidi, a well known historian has stated that the modern Palestinian people now understand their identity as encompassing the heritage of all ages from biblical times up to the Ottoman period. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yitzhak Rabin was ethnically Jewish, not Ukrainian. Calling him ethnically Ukrainian is a lie and extremely anti-Semitic if you are not ignorant on the subject. Just because someone's ancestors lived in an area now called Ukraine doesn't mean they were Ukrainian. There is such a thing as a minority group. I suggest you learn what that is. On a note more relevant to the topic of this talk page section, the Wikipedia article on Sophronius of Jerusalem claims in its second paragraph that Sophronius was of Arab descent. That would seem to make him a part of this so-called "Palestinian people." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.109.93 (talk) 09:29, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
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- Notice I did not say he was not ethnically Jewish, I called him ancestrally an Ukrainian Ashkenazi Jew, that is sourced information. As is his Belarusian Jewish ancestry on his mother's side. I suggest you take heed to what Oncenawhile said below. Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Your comment betrays your double standards. You scold another editor for using the word Ukrainian to describe a person with Jewish identity, yet you then use the term "so called" when referring to the identity of another group of people. Ethnic identity is a complex and sensitive subject, and so editors who cannot control their own bigotry are advised to stay away from these discussions. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
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- Lazyfoxx, I did read Nishidani's last post. But the comparison with, say, Welsh does not work. The Welsh are not defined in terms of the modern period, as in this article. Nishidani is also incorrect about Iraqis, who are defined as modern citizens and their photo montage does not include ancient Babylonians. My only concern is that the photo montage match the article definition. You could propose to change the definition instead of this image, but presumably the article text reflects a consensus or compromise, which should be respected until modified. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you for effectively stating that an ethnic Ukrainian Ashkenazi Jew is not a part of the Palestinian ethnic group, but I think that is common knowledge. The reason Arafat is Palestinian is because he fits the criteria for being part of the Palestinian ethnic group. Regardless if he was "Arab" or not. A person's nationality (where they were born) is not always an indicator of ethnic origin. And again I will say, I think you're confused in this matter. Make sure to read adhere to Wp:NPOV. I suggest actually reading Nishidani's last post and not glossing over it to only respond to me, he explains the situation on this page accurately. Lazyfoxx (talk) 15:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
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East Jerusalem[edit]
Why does the Israel figure, in the infobox, include Palestinian East Jerusalamites? Under international law, East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian Territory. This is a case of WP:VALID. False balance. It is Palestine, not Israel. Presenting the other view, that it is somehow "disputed" and to be "unbiased" we must present "both sides"—by categorizing Palestinians living in East Jerusalem as residents of Israel and the state of Palestine—is clearly undue, as virtually every international institution regards East Jerusalem as Palestine. JDiala (talk) 05:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
- Most government recognize Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea, it's still thought of as disputed because there's a clear difference between de facto and de jure control.108.131.85.155 (talk) 08:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Like the Lebanese, Syrians, Egyptians, Maghrebis, and most other people today commonly called Arabs, the Palestinians are an Arab people in linguistic and cultural affiliation[edit]
This is utter crap,mostly because the arabs (Umiyya and Abbas) came from the arab peninsula and flourished in the aspect of population growth in where they came to. Most arab speaking countries (especially the levant) are made from those who came from what is now saudi arabia,while the non muslim communities still have some roots to the ancient population. the Coptic christians are a great example. Maybe palestinian christians have something similiar too. Most researches say there are roots which go backward to an ancient population but theres a catch : Since some of the palestinains are egyptian ,moroccan and even lebanese (the terrorist praised in the palestinian authority Ibrahim al akari is from akar,lebanon,and i dont think akar is a refugee camp or that the name has changed due to the naqba) it is possible that it was a genetic mixture which RESEMBLES an ancient origin. I think you should redo your own thinking. --109.64.48.134 (talk) 14:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but did you have an edit you would like to make? Please remember that the talk pages are not for us to voice our own feelings on a topic, but rather discuss improvements to the article. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 10 Adar 5775 14:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Move discussion in progress[edit]
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Belizean people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Inclusion of Sophronius of Jerusalem in the infobox[edit]
Of all the claims made in this article, this is perhaps the most dubious. There is no evidence whatsoever that Sophronius bears any relation to today's Palestinians beyond his Arab descent. This is historical revisionism. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:23, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
- This was discussed earlier this year. Anyone may change Sophronius with a pic of any other figure born in Palestine for that early period. This has nothing to do with 'Arabs', but with the representation of people who figure prominently in Palestinian (Arab, Arab Christian or otherwise) accounts of their ethnic or national history. Unless one espouses the extreme fringe lunatic idea that Palestinians, uniquely of all ethnic groups, appeared out of nowhere in the 1900s, and before that were just immigrant foreigners from Arabia, this view is not odd. It is normative for all ethnic articles. I think Saint George is the one who best fits the proposal to swap Sophronius for a more familiar impeccably indigenous figure that was, has been, and remains central to the historic culture of Palestinians, Christian or otherwise. If you can upload a pic of him, by all means put it in while taking out Sophronius.Nishidani (talk) 19:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
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- I normally would not post on a Israel-Palestine conflict page but I am going to do so anyway.
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- This article does not claim that Palestinians are an ethnic group. Judith Drick Toland says that Palestinians are a nationalist group and not an ethnic group as they are lacking aspects of an ethnic group such as a distinctly different language, religion or social origin.
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- At least some Palestinians consider themselves to be ethnically Arab.
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- Nationalist groups normally pick military figures from the past not religious figures. I have a hard time seeing all Palestinians viewing Sophronius as an inspirational leader. I would suggest such a military figure Saladin.
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- https://books.google.com/books?id=bL9dfjYK2eMC&pg=PA31&dq=saladin+palestinians&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UPQ5Va7lJMjjsATQ-oGgAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=saladin%20palestinians&f=false page 31
- Rashid Khalidi say Saladin is viewed very favorably by Palestinians.Jonney2000 (talk) 08:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- Saladin was a Kurd. Palestinians are now considered an ethnic group, and St George is honoured, according to Tewfik Canaan, by all constituent parts of the Palestinian people.(Ethel Sara Wolper, 'Khidr and the Changing Frontiers of the Medieval World,' in Jill Caskey,Adam S. Cohen,Linda Safran, Confronting the Borders of Medieval Art, BRILL, 2011 pp.120-146, p.125 n.11) Nishidani (talk) 10:28, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- I am in favor of the swapping of St. George for Sophronius on these grounds,
- 1. Ancestral: Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times.
- 2. Religious: St. George's mother was a Palestinian Christian, the same Palestinian Christianity is still alive and flourishing today in Palestinians.
- 3. Social: St. George is venerated as a Palestinian hero and icon socially, Why St. George is a Palestinian hero.
- 4. Physical Apppearence: St. George was no doubt similar looking to other Palestinians, and the Palestinian phenotype (physical appearence) did not drastically change in the last 1800 years.Reconstruction of a Palestinian face in the time of Jesus.
- 5. Linguistics: St. George spoke Greek and Aramaic, the latter being a heavy influence for the Palestinian dialect of Arabic today. The Greek and Aramaic languages are also preserved by modern Palestinian Christians. Lazyfoxx (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think that the two Palestinian saints from the 1800s would be a pretty good substitute. They were just canonized. http://www.timesofisrael.com/pope-francis-to-canonize-first-palestinian-saints/ --Monochrome_Monitor 19:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Saladin was a Kurd. Palestinians are now considered an ethnic group, and St George is honoured, according to Tewfik Canaan, by all constituent parts of the Palestinian people.(Ethel Sara Wolper, 'Khidr and the Changing Frontiers of the Medieval World,' in Jill Caskey,Adam S. Cohen,Linda Safran, Confronting the Borders of Medieval Art, BRILL, 2011 pp.120-146, p.125 n.11) Nishidani (talk) 10:28, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Also, Saladin wasn't Palestinian, he was a Kurd. :) --Monochrome_Monitor 19:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC) And Jesus wasn't a Palestinian, he was a Judean. See now we are just getting into psuedohistory. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:45, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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- But yeah, I recommend Mariam Baouardy --Monochrome_Monitor 19:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- And St George wasn't Palestinian either. He was a Greek born in Syria Palaestina, which bears no connection to the modern day State of Palestine other than location. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC) That's why the two Christian Saints I just mentioned would be a good fit.
- I have provided five common ethnic criteria showing St. George as part of the Palestinian people. His father was a Cappadocian Greek. Lazyfoxx (talk) 20:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- By that logic all the Jews in the land can be called "Palestinian" and therefore Jesus is a Palestinian. The argument that Palestinians are descended from Jews and Christians is BS Palestinian nationalist crap anyway. They are Arabs. They come from Arabia. Genetic studies show that they cluster tightly with other Muslims, including Lebanese, Syrians, and Saudis, while Jews, Druze, Cypriots, and Assyrians are a separate though related cluster. The modern genetic analysis doesn't show Palestinians are descended from anyone, it just shows that Arabs are genetically related to Jews. Of course they are. The only people who take this to mean that Palestinians descend from Jews are revisionists. Therefore, your first criteria is out. The second criteria is meaningless too, it doesn't matter that there are Palestinian Christians. Lots of people are Christians, its the biggest religion in the world. As for the third criteria, the fact that St. George is important to Palestinians means nothing. If anything, that's just evidence of cultural appropriation. Physical appearance is also meaningless. Firstly, St. George looked like a Greek, we know that from contemporary images. He didn't look like an Arab, Christian or Muslim. As for what people think Jesus looked like, that's highly speculative and unrelated. And your last criteria is also preposterous. A shared language means nothing, at the time Aramaic was the predominant language of the Middle East so most people there spoke it. Again, Jesus spoke Aramaic, are you claiming he was Palestinian? Your argument is completely baseless and obviously motivated by nationalism. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:34, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have provided five common ethnic criteria showing St. George as part of the Palestinian people. His father was a Cappadocian Greek. Lazyfoxx (talk) 20:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- And St George wasn't Palestinian either. He was a Greek born in Syria Palaestina, which bears no connection to the modern day State of Palestine other than location. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:49, 10 May 2015 (UTC) That's why the two Christian Saints I just mentioned would be a good fit.
- But yeah, I recommend Mariam Baouardy --Monochrome_Monitor 19:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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- This entire page is biased! What in particular do I need to source? That palestinians cluster closer with fellow Arabs and Muslims than Jews and Christians? Sure. http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316 I just hate the perversion of history. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your source actually tends to contradict the argument you're trying to make. ← ZScarpia 12:08, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- This entire page is biased! What in particular do I need to source? That palestinians cluster closer with fellow Arabs and Muslims than Jews and Christians? Sure. http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316 I just hate the perversion of history. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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Honestly, the issue won't get addressed, so I'll just leave it. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:59, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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- If you like make an edit request to delete this page, seems to be your goal. Lazyfoxx (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? I don't want this page to be deleted, its an important article. I just want it to be based on facts rather than political theory. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:07, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Then please keep Zionist political theory statements such as "The argument that Palestinians are descended from Jews and Christians is BS Palestinian nationalist crap anyway. They are Arabs. They come from Arabia." off of this article. Thanks. Lazyfoxx (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. Such statements are no different from claiming Ashkenazi Jews "are Slavs" or "come from Khazaria". The surest sign of an anti-Palestinian racist is when the person claims that Palestinians and "Arabs" are exactly the same thing. The modern nationalist concept of Arabness is extremely complex, just like (albeit in different ways to) the complexity of Jewishness. Monochrome, if you can't hold back your bigotry, I suggest you do some more research before continuing here. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, they are quite different. I'm definitely over simplifying but its different from endorsing fringe theories. I'm not denying a unique Palestinian national identity but there isn't really a standalone ethnicity to the point where you can actually distinguish them from Lebanese or Syrians through genetic analysis. Palestinians are a subset of Arabs, they view themselves as part of the Arab Umma. The exception to this of coarse is Christian Palestinians who very likely have some Aramean/Assyrian ancestry. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also, if anything saying that Arabs come from Arabia is analogous to saying Jews come from Judea. Both are more or less correct. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to imply that Palestinians are the same as Arabs, just as Lebanese aren't the same as Arabs and Egyptians aren't the same as Arabs, even though they are all Arabs. My concern is that Palestinians are treated differently, instead of as a population group defined by national lines they are defined in vague, mystical terms. Compare "Palestinians are the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region" with "The Iraqi people (Arabic: العراقيون ʿIrāqīyūn, Kurdish: گهلی عیراق Îraqîyan, Aramaic: ܥܡܐ ܥܝܪܩܝܐ ʿIrāqāyā, Turkish: Iraklılar) are the citizens of the modern country of Iraq." On the article Iraqis it is explained that Iraq wasn't fully Arab until the Sassanid Empire. It makes no claims that these Arabs were native Mesopotamians who had been "Arabized". This designation only applies to Palestinians for some reason. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:32, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also, if anything saying that Arabs come from Arabia is analogous to saying Jews come from Judea. Both are more or less correct. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, they are quite different. I'm definitely over simplifying but its different from endorsing fringe theories. I'm not denying a unique Palestinian national identity but there isn't really a standalone ethnicity to the point where you can actually distinguish them from Lebanese or Syrians through genetic analysis. Palestinians are a subset of Arabs, they view themselves as part of the Arab Umma. The exception to this of coarse is Christian Palestinians who very likely have some Aramean/Assyrian ancestry. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. Such statements are no different from claiming Ashkenazi Jews "are Slavs" or "come from Khazaria". The surest sign of an anti-Palestinian racist is when the person claims that Palestinians and "Arabs" are exactly the same thing. The modern nationalist concept of Arabness is extremely complex, just like (albeit in different ways to) the complexity of Jewishness. Monochrome, if you can't hold back your bigotry, I suggest you do some more research before continuing here. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Then please keep Zionist political theory statements such as "The argument that Palestinians are descended from Jews and Christians is BS Palestinian nationalist crap anyway. They are Arabs. They come from Arabia." off of this article. Thanks. Lazyfoxx (talk) 21:24, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Are you kidding? I don't want this page to be deleted, its an important article. I just want it to be based on facts rather than political theory. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:07, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- If you like make an edit request to delete this page, seems to be your goal. Lazyfoxx (talk) 21:04, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Also it's completely unfounded and frankly offensive for you to accuse me of anti-Arab racism. I'm actually somewhat of a arabophile. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- If you personally believe the Palestinian ethnicity doesn't exist that is fine, but please keep such political theories off Wikipedia. Whether your views are Arabophile or Zionist, Wikipedia is for neutrality. And you directly contradict scholarly sources with your statements. Lazyfoxx (talk) 14:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Monochrome, your comments above show no understanding of the term "Arab"
- You may be Arabophile (despite not understanding the term), but your comments above are Islamophobic. The idea that Copts, Maronites and Palestinian Christians are the only regional inhabitants who can claim descent from pre-Islamic inhabitants is bigoted and frankly shows no understanding of Islam's proselytizing history.
- Arab / Arabia is not comparable to Jew / Judea when the word Arab is being used linguistically. The linguistic aspect to the term "Arab" is one which you appear to misunderstand or ignore.
- The idea that Palestinians are ethnically from the Arabian peninsula is a fringe theory, which has been propagated by Zionism. Scholars have shown that there is no evidence for a mass migration from Arabia to Palestine.
- Please stop wasting our time and go and fix your inherant biases.
- Oncenawhile (talk) 15:54, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- The arguments have been made endlessly, and if you want responses MM, read the archives. Don't engage people with useless polemics. I think St George is best fitted for the infobox, in any case.Nishidani (talk) 17:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Again, your claim that I am "Islamophobic" is completely groundless. I have great respect for all monotheistic religions. It's also not fringe to say that the Palestinians are ethnically primarily Arab. It's heavily suggested by genetics. You fail to refute the fact that Palestinians are genetically far closer if not indistinguishable from Syrians, Egyptians, and Muslim Lebanese than to Jews, Copts, Druze, Samaritans, and other pre-Islamic peoples of the region. Regardless, I'm not trying to get the article changed. I'm trying to show that's it's absurd to call St. George a Palestinian just because he lived in Syria Palaestina. Such a claim is no different than calling Jesus a Palestinian. Both are cultural appropriation. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your inability to acknowledge Palestinians as an ethnic group and as an pre-islamic people is incredibly biased, please refrain from making such politically motivated statements. Your analysis of Genetic research is not only ignorant and inaccurate but also says that you only define an ethnic group on Genetic basis. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I don't deny that Palestinians are an ethnic group at all. However they are not a particularly distinct one by most standards of ethnic groups:linguistics, genetics, culture, etc. Palestinian cuisine is largely Middle Eastern cuisine, Palestinian culture is largely Arab culture, and Palestinian language is largely Arabic language. I don't make these facts, I just interpret them. If Palestinians were a pre-Islamic people they would be significantly more similar gentically similar to pre-Islamic peoples than, say, Saudis, but they simply aren't. Find me one study showing otherwise. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:32, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not trying to change anything on the page. My objection was to people with zero relation (other than sheer geographical coincidence) to Palestinians being put in the infobox as Palestinian. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:36, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sigh. Nishidani is right. You are just wasting everyone's time. So much of what you write is wrong, and I don't see why I should bother. If you genuinely want to remove the inherant racism and propaganda that has infected your knowledge base, I suggest you go do some research of your own. Perhaps the sources at Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#Palestinians and Palestinian Arabic would be a good place to start. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- The study you cite shows that Jews are closely related to many Levantines, including Palestinians. "a recent survey of 18 binary Y-specific polymorphisms showed that Y chromosome haplotypes of Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations are almost indistinguishable from those of Jews" That's the fallacy I mentioned earlier—that because Palestinians are related to Jews (of course they are, both are Semitic peoples) they must be descended from Jews. I asked for a study showing that Palestinians are closer to Jews and Christians than other Arab peoples. You did not cite one, so I'm guessing it doesn't exist. I also advise you against accusing people of racism on a whim, others could do the same for you. Also, thanks for directing me to that article because I found that it's falsely cited. The study never claims that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD". It says that the majority of Jews converted to Christianity in the 5th century, that Arabs arrived in the first millennium, and that the population became Islamized after the 7th century Islamic conquests. It doesn't speculate about the origins of Palestinians at all. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:37, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're wasting your time, and I suggest you employ it more fruitfully studying the subject rather than pontificating on what you known little of, except the standard school memes. 99% of human races (Andaman Islanders are the exception) are miscegenated. Nishidani (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure that finding a huge citation error is "wasting my time", but I'll leave. Nice ad hominem though. "School memes", very funny. Also I agree that the vast majority of ethnic groups are "non-pure", for example a recent study showed that Native Americans aren't really that close to East Asians as had been thought and are surprisingly close to Europeans. It was in the Wall Street Journal, unfortunately it's probably behind a paywall now. Anyway, the fact that human populations mix frequently doesn't mean genetics as a whole aren't a valid means of ascertaining descent. I was wrong to imply that all Palestinians are descended from Arab conquerors who arrived in the 7th century, that's a gross oversimplification. I However it's also a gross exaggeration that Palestinians are not descended from Arabs who arrived in the first millennium at all and are 100% Christians and Jews who converted, which is sort of implied by this article. The truth somewhere in between. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- You're wasting your time, and I suggest you employ it more fruitfully studying the subject rather than pontificating on what you known little of, except the standard school memes. 99% of human races (Andaman Islanders are the exception) are miscegenated. Nishidani (talk) 19:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- The study you cite shows that Jews are closely related to many Levantines, including Palestinians. "a recent survey of 18 binary Y-specific polymorphisms showed that Y chromosome haplotypes of Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations are almost indistinguishable from those of Jews" That's the fallacy I mentioned earlier—that because Palestinians are related to Jews (of course they are, both are Semitic peoples) they must be descended from Jews. I asked for a study showing that Palestinians are closer to Jews and Christians than other Arab peoples. You did not cite one, so I'm guessing it doesn't exist. I also advise you against accusing people of racism on a whim, others could do the same for you. Also, thanks for directing me to that article because I found that it's falsely cited. The study never claims that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD". It says that the majority of Jews converted to Christianity in the 5th century, that Arabs arrived in the first millennium, and that the population became Islamized after the 7th century Islamic conquests. It doesn't speculate about the origins of Palestinians at all. --Monochrome_Monitor 18:37, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Sigh. Nishidani is right. You are just wasting everyone's time. So much of what you write is wrong, and I don't see why I should bother. If you genuinely want to remove the inherant racism and propaganda that has infected your knowledge base, I suggest you go do some research of your own. Perhaps the sources at Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins#Palestinians and Palestinian Arabic would be a good place to start. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not trying to change anything on the page. My objection was to people with zero relation (other than sheer geographical coincidence) to Palestinians being put in the infobox as Palestinian. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:36, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't deny that Palestinians are an ethnic group at all. However they are not a particularly distinct one by most standards of ethnic groups:linguistics, genetics, culture, etc. Palestinian cuisine is largely Middle Eastern cuisine, Palestinian culture is largely Arab culture, and Palestinian language is largely Arabic language. I don't make these facts, I just interpret them. If Palestinians were a pre-Islamic people they would be significantly more similar gentically similar to pre-Islamic peoples than, say, Saudis, but they simply aren't. Find me one study showing otherwise. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:32, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Your inability to acknowledge Palestinians as an ethnic group and as an pre-islamic people is incredibly biased, please refrain from making such politically motivated statements. Your analysis of Genetic research is not only ignorant and inaccurate but also says that you only define an ethnic group on Genetic basis. Lazyfoxx (talk) 17:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Again, your claim that I am "Islamophobic" is completely groundless. I have great respect for all monotheistic religions. It's also not fringe to say that the Palestinians are ethnically primarily Arab. It's heavily suggested by genetics. You fail to refute the fact that Palestinians are genetically far closer if not indistinguishable from Syrians, Egyptians, and Muslim Lebanese than to Jews, Copts, Druze, Samaritans, and other pre-Islamic peoples of the region. Regardless, I'm not trying to get the article changed. I'm trying to show that's it's absurd to call St. George a Palestinian just because he lived in Syria Palaestina. Such a claim is no different than calling Jesus a Palestinian. Both are cultural appropriation. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- The arguments have been made endlessly, and if you want responses MM, read the archives. Don't engage people with useless polemics. I think St George is best fitted for the infobox, in any case.Nishidani (talk) 17:07, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- If you personally believe the Palestinian ethnicity doesn't exist that is fine, but please keep such political theories off Wikipedia. Whether your views are Arabophile or Zionist, Wikipedia is for neutrality. And you directly contradict scholarly sources with your statements. Lazyfoxx (talk) 14:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- To repeat, study the subject. Your first error was corrected. 'Arab' in a historical world of shifting populations is as obscure as 'Jew'. 'Arabs' have been attested in that area since the early Ist millennium B.C.E., and to simply identify 'Arabs' with those who came in the wake of Omar's army is silly. History discomforts as it enlightens: it discomforts because nothing turns out to be simple. It enlightens because its complexities confirm that we are, individual by individual living mosaical residues of immense civilizations and obscure forgotten tribal worlds, something that should leave any sane person with a Grecian sense of joyous wonder. Nishidani (talk) 19:54, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Deep. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps too abstract. Consider that some rumours in rabbinical corridors make out Shemaiah and Avtalyon might be descendants of Sennacherib, or that Rabbi Meir’s father hailed from a descendent of Nero who converted, and he in turn was taught by the noblest of them all Akiva ben Joseph a humble country bumpkin whose own rustic dad might have been a convert. When you see an ethnonym attached to someone, hold your breath, perk up your ears, and forage for details. The stories that emerge are almost always more interesting than the tedium of belonging to an abstract noun serving as nomenclature for an undifferentiated 'monoethnic' identity.p.s. By the whey, I commend your readiness to admit to error. That is very rare round here, and a sign of strong potential to become a fine Wikipedian.Nishidani (talk) 20:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Deep. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also it's completely unfounded and frankly offensive for you to accuse me of anti-Arab racism. I'm actually somewhat of a arabophile. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:38, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I've heard that Abraham was a Kurd. The reason for this was because he's from the Iraqi city of Ur, which was dominated around Abraham's time by the Gutians, a tribe of the Zagros mountains which many believe are the forefathers of modern Kurds. The other reason was that Jews are scary closely related to the Kurds, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, even moreso than they are to some Semitic populations. It's an interesting theory. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, and thanks. I'm certainly still learning. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:52, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
1. Same religion as some palestinians
2. Similar language since arabic came from aramaic
3. may have looked similar to them
4. may be genetically related
5. is revered by palestinians
These criteria aren't nearly substantive enough to justify an infobox inclusion. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- What is your definition of an ethnic group then, Monochrome Monitor? Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:37, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Merriam-Webster's definition of ethnicity "of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background." Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:45, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your criteria make a lot of assumptions and are almost entirely speculative. For one, there's no evidence that St. George self-indentified as anything but Greek. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- You seem eager to identify him as a Greek rather than a Palestinian, when in reality he was both. Do you have a source stating that St. George referred to himself as a Greek? I have an encyclopedia of Saints that states he was half Palestinian and half Greek by ancestry. Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Both of his parents were Greek, however one of them was a Greek born in Syria Palaestina. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Please source your statement. Here is my source. Lazyfoxx (talk) 01:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Also, little is known about him. We don't even know if he was born in Syria Palaestina or if he moved there after his father died. He's more myth than man at this point. But as for his mom being Greek? Here's a few. "his mother, Polychronia, was a Greek from the city Lyda." Also [1] and [2] Remember that at this point the region of Palestine was heavily hellenized, and it had a Greek rather than an Arab majority. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- And if we are basing his "Palestinianess" on the fact he was born in Lyda, Lyda is the city of Lod in modern Israel. Does that make him an Israeli? --Monochrome_Monitor 02:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Are you denying that modern Palestinians descend in part from the hellenized population of ancient Palestine? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:21, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- What? There's no significant Greek genetic component in Palestinians. In fact, Ashkenazi Jews have a far larger Greek component (accounting for most of their non-Levantine maternal admixture along with Italians) in them than Palestinians. Does that mean St. George was Jewish? --Monochrome_Monitor 02:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Have you genetically sequenced St. George and other hellenized Palestinians from the 3rd century or are you saying there is no modern Greek component in Palestinians? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm saying there's little modern Greek component, yes. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:29, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- So would a hellenized Palestinian from the 3rd century be identical to a Greek from Greece today? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:32, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- It's also wrong for you to call him a "hellenized Palestinian". He wasn't "Hellenized", he was Greek. And he wasn't Palestinian in any modern sense of the word. He was from Syria Palaestina, but Syria Palaestina was originally Judea and Lydda is in modern Israel. You are drawing a bullseye around an arrow here. You're the one who is calling him a hellenized Palestinian, not me. Both of his parents were Greek, as I just showed you. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm really sorry if it causes you personal distress but, "According to Rashid Khalidi, the modern Palestinian people now understand their identity as encompassing the heritage of all ages from biblical times up to the Ottoman period." These two sources state Polychronia as a Palestinian Christian, [1]2 Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:55, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Let me also remind you, you are only addressing one of my ethnic criteria out of the five above that support St. George in place of Sophronius. Lazyfoxx (talk) 03:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's also wrong for you to call him a "hellenized Palestinian". He wasn't "Hellenized", he was Greek. And he wasn't Palestinian in any modern sense of the word. He was from Syria Palaestina, but Syria Palaestina was originally Judea and Lydda is in modern Israel. You are drawing a bullseye around an arrow here. You're the one who is calling him a hellenized Palestinian, not me. Both of his parents were Greek, as I just showed you. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:38, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Have you genetically sequenced St. George and other hellenized Palestinians from the 3rd century or are you saying there is no modern Greek component in Palestinians? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- What? There's no significant Greek genetic component in Palestinians. In fact, Ashkenazi Jews have a far larger Greek component (accounting for most of their non-Levantine maternal admixture along with Italians) in them than Palestinians. Does that mean St. George was Jewish? --Monochrome_Monitor 02:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Also, little is known about him. We don't even know if he was born in Syria Palaestina or if he moved there after his father died. He's more myth than man at this point. But as for his mom being Greek? Here's a few. "his mother, Polychronia, was a Greek from the city Lyda." Also [1] and [2] Remember that at this point the region of Palestine was heavily hellenized, and it had a Greek rather than an Arab majority. --Monochrome_Monitor 02:17, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Please source your statement. Here is my source. Lazyfoxx (talk) 01:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Both of his parents were Greek, however one of them was a Greek born in Syria Palaestina. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- You seem eager to identify him as a Greek rather than a Palestinian, when in reality he was both. Do you have a source stating that St. George referred to himself as a Greek? I have an encyclopedia of Saints that states he was half Palestinian and half Greek by ancestry. Lazyfoxx (talk) 00:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your criteria make a lot of assumptions and are almost entirely speculative. For one, there's no evidence that St. George self-indentified as anything but Greek. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Right... Rashid Khalidi is a Palestinian Nationalist more than he is a scholar. As for Polychronia being a Palestinian christian, she was. A Palestinian Greek Christian. Palestine being the region, Greek being the ethnicity. Ask any catholic/church scholar to if Polychronia is Greek and they will say yes. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC) You're going off the deep end here. You need to convince yourself that St. George was a Palestinian despite all the evidence. This is my problem with this article. Instead of offering facts it offers the opinions of someone named Rashid Khalidi, apparently the representative of all Palestinians. Apparently "Palestinians view themselves as going back to biblical times" but they can't show any evidence of this. There are millions of artifacts testifying to ancient Jewish history, yet not a single one testifying to ancient Palestinian history, unless you consider Jewish history to be Palestinian history, which many do (more cultural appropriation). --Monochrome_Monitor 03:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Rashid Khalidi is an eminent scholar, a full professor at Columbia University. This present thread in which you are arguing that one group of people has greater racial purity than another is not your finest moment. Zerotalk 03:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Greater racial purity? Is that a joke? I didn't say anything in the like. As for Rashid Khalidi being an "eminent scholar", he was a PLO spokesman. MAJOR conflict of interest. Also he has been caught lying at times.--Monochrome_Monitor 11:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- So what? See WP:BIASED. Do you dismiss Michael Oren too? Secondly, nearly all scholars have misquoted or been wrong on some things. You have to work a lot harder to show why Rashid Khalidi is not a good source. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I already addressed your other criteria. We don't know what Jesus or St. George looked like. The possibility of them looking like Palestinians when Jesus was a Judean and St. George was a Greek is very slim. As for language, the vast majority of Palestinians speak Arabic, not Aramaic. As for religion, the vast majority of Palestinians are Muslim, not Christian. And lastly, just because some Palestinians revere George doesn't make him a Palestinian. You know who else likes George? British. The love him. He inspired their flag. Does that mean he was a Brit? Of coarse not, that's absurd. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Ugh, sorry. I'm getting a bit hot-tempered. I just can't stand historical revisionism. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- 1. The reconstruction of a Palestinian in the time of Jesus does not look drastically different than Palestinians today, it takes only a glance to see that.
- 2. Palestinians speak Palestinian Arabic, look it up. Palestinian Christians retain the Aramaic language as well.
- 3. Religion, many Palestinians converted to Islam, that is true (This does not erase their Christian history before Islam by the way), but Palestinian Christians still remain today, and have since the time of St. George, it is a continuity of the same religion by the same people, I do not see how you do not understand this.
- 4. You do not understand the social/cultural criteria of an ethnic group, he is revered by Palestinians as a Palestinian hero, the British do not revere St. George as a British hero, because he is not British. Lazyfoxx (talk) 03:43, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Ugh, sorry. I'm getting a bit hot-tempered. I just can't stand historical revisionism. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- 1. One reconstruction of Jesus based on pure speculation looks somewhat like Palestinians. Though it actually looks most like a Mizrahi Jew, but regardless its one artists reconstruction. The majority of actual contemporary sources draw the indigenous non-Arab peoples of the Levant as looking like Jews, like the one on the right from Seti's Tomb showing a Semite (specifically a Phoenecian), 3rd from the left
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- 2. Yes they do speak Palestinian Arabic. And the Egyptians speak Egyptian Arabic. Also your contention that Palestinian Christians retain Aramaic is simply not true. The majority do not speak Aramaic.
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- 3. Show me one genetic study showing that Palestinian Christians are descended from Greek Christians.
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- 4. It doesn't matter if Palestinians think St. George is a Palestinian. They can think that the earth is flat and that Israel flattened it and it wouldn't matter because it's not true. Wikipedia:How many legs does a horse have? --Monochrome_Monitor 04:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- What's Zionist political theory? The "earth is flat and israel flattened it" is from some UN Guy, I think Kofi Annan. It referred to UN's unequal standards against Israel. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm obviously not convincing you since apparently everything I say is "Zionist political theory". Feel free to put it in the infobox, but it will likely be reverted. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your belief that Palestinians are Arabs that come from Arabia and that Muslims do not descend from Jews and Christians that lived there in the past. That Zionist political theory, which is not only blatantly racist against the Palestinian ethnicity, it is not substantiated by scholarly sources.
- And no you are not convincing me, your line of thinking seems incredibly biased and we should strive for neutrality on Wikipedia. Lazyfoxx (talk) 04:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm obviously not convincing you since apparently everything I say is "Zionist political theory". Feel free to put it in the infobox, but it will likely be reverted. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:24, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- What's Zionist political theory? The "earth is flat and israel flattened it" is from some UN Guy, I think Kofi Annan. It referred to UN's unequal standards against Israel. --Monochrome_Monitor 04:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Oncenawhile, you are correct in that the "idea that Copts, Maronites and Palestinian Christians are the only regional inhabitants who can claim descent from pre-Islamic inhabitants is bigoted...". Many Islamophobic websites etc. present Muslims in many parts of the Levant and Egypt as immigrants and that spreads to Wikipedia articles too. In the case of Palestine and Israel, it has a special meaning as it is a myth told often by the Israeli state and Zionists. --IRISZOOM (talk) 05:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Pre-Islamic inhabitants" is a misleading word. The Arab people obviously come from long before Islam, and some Palestinians are Arab immigrants who arrived in the early first millennium AD. Most of the theories out there that contend that Arabs outside of the Hijaz and surrounding regions (the location of the bulk of Arabian tribes) are indigenous are manifestations Arab nationalism—ie Phoenicianism and Pharaonism, both dubious. The belief that Palestinians are not "pure Arabs" but rather wholly descended from Christians/Jews/Canaanites/Phillistines/etc. is a component of Palestinian nationalism. Also, I don't read "Islamophobic Sites". --Monochrome_Monitor 11:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Monochrome, this debate is going in circles primarily because you appear to have a very poor understanding of what nationalism is. Please take a break and go and research nationalism as a broader topic. Your idea of "Greeks" is another concept of which you show almost total ignorance, in addition to your poor understanding of the term "Arab". To understand this properly you need to understand how these concepts developed during the 19th century. Just remember one thing - all nationalisms are as flawed as each other. Please spare us any more of your views on this until you have educated yourself on this properly. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I didn't speak specifically about you, MM. That view is common by Islamophobes and Zionists. Sure there have been Arab immigrants to Palestine just like there have been emigrants from there (to for example South America and Jordan) and I haven't seen anyone say that all of them have been there for ever. However, the claim that most Palestinians or other people in the Levant or Egypt are from Arabia is false. It has nothing to do with Phoenicianism, Palestinian nationalism etc. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Monochrome Monitor, from reading your comments I would suggest that you dump any ideas stemming from the race theories of the 19th and 20th centuries: being 'Arab' is a cultural, not 'racial', identity and the concept of a "Pure Arab" is a nonsense; there are people who speak Semitic languages, but the concept of a 'Semitic race' is another nonsense. ← ZScarpia 12:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
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- I am sorry if I missed something, but as far as I know Sophronius was born in Damascus and Damascus was never part of Palestine. Beside there are WP:RS which precisely define Sophronius, so we should use them without personal interpretations. --Tritomex (talk) 18:22, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Being Arab is more than cultural. It's panethnic. Ie, Arabs are more or less genetically related loosely even though they don't form a monolithic genetic group. Also, when applied to Arabian tribes, ie Hashemites and Beduin, it's a distinct ethnic group. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:24, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- You're right. He was from Syria, he moved to Palestine. I'm not sure this would disqualify him as not being Palestinian (moreso than other reasons at least), since a lot of people considered Palestinian don't come from Palestine. Yasser Arafat is a good example, he was an Egyptian. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:33, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think Arafat father originated from Gaza. However the case of Sophronius is very much clear. He was a Syrian saint born in Damascus --Tritomex (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Sea peoples[edit]
I find the addition of the Sea Peoples under related groups problematic.
1. They are a conjectured people.
2. They are an ancient/now non-existent people, and therefore no actual (genetic, cultural) links will be possible to prove between them and Palestinians.
3. No sources. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:54, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
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- We don't deal in 'proof' here, but we transcribe what reliable sources state
- They are not a 'conjectured people', they are a confederated tribal movement, probably of predominantly Aegaean-Anatolian extraction, to judge from the ethnonymic evidence in Egyptian. Many might have been speakers of paleo-Greek or Hittite dialects like Luwian, but there is no certainty. I think Sea Peoples is not necessary there, not however for the reasons you give. I don't mind its removal, but I'd wait for further input from others.Nishidani (talk) 13:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- We don't deal in 'proof' here, but we transcribe what reliable sources state
- From the article Sea Peoples: "Sea Peoples were conjectured groups of seafaring raiders". Is that wrong? I'm confused. --Monochrome_Monitor 21:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- MM, you are right. If you read some of the quoted sources in the Sea Peoples article (e.g. Drews), it is arguably worse than "conjectured" - it is arguably not much more than a romantic story made up by the early Egyptologists from some sparse evidence and large assumptions that happened to catch the imagination of the late 19th century public. The "Peleset" are not connected to the sea in any known Egyptian record. And the Aegean migration hypothesis is still no more than a hypothesis, with no known proof, despite 100 years of attempted etymological connections between Egyptian inscriptions and modern place names.
- Nish, if you ever have time, can I encourage you to look into a little Egyptology. I believe that science of Egyptology would greatly benefit from Egyptologists who understand Chinese / Kanji. The etymological jumps that have been made over the last two centuries of research would have been done with much more caution if people had understood how Chinese characters represent different sounds in different regions of China and wider region. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually I was reading the late lamented Dominic Montserrat just the other day. No, those folks don't need a dabbler like me, and in any case Japan has plenty with a total mastery of both, folks like Kondō Jirō (近藤 二郎) and Yoshimura Sakuji (吉村作治). My father wanted to be an Egyptologist, poverty and the great depression stopped him. He was delighted at the outbreak of WW2 to have the opportunity to pretend to be a soldier, get shipped off to North Africa at government expense, and spend his time touring the pyramids and museums. He changed the dates on his birth certificate because he was overage, and managed to take it all in.Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Monochrome Why did you remove Phillistines entirely from the list instead of just moving it out of the Semitic category? Probably should discuss before changes like that are made. Lazyfoxx (talk) 14:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's not quite fair to call those poor blighters philistines. They have enough abuse on the plate without that :)Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No doubt the Phillistines settled a region of Palestine the same era the Canaanites did.
- http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/large-map-land-of-canaan-during-book-of-joshua.jpg Lazyfoxx (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Lol on the Philistines. Living in the same place doesn't make you related. No one says that the Turks are descended from the Anatolians. I also think Syrians and Lebanese should be re-added since they are the ethnic groups closest to the Palestinians. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually researchers do say that about the Turkish people. And Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians are already on the list under the first term, Levantines. Lazyfoxx (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, they don't. You should do more research. They say Turks are descended from Chinese and Siberian ethnic groups. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- And why not just say "Jews"? Instead of listing all the major Jewish ethnic groups? --Monochrome_Monitor 16:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- 'Living in the same place doesn't make you related. No one says that the Turks are descended from the Anatolians.'
- Actually, nearly everyone says precisely that. Genetically, the Turks of Turkey are largely of Anatolian descent, as the Hungarians are of Indo-European descent (see the refs at Genetic history of the Turkish people ). Language is no marker of origins.Nishidani (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's actually part of the point; culture is not genetics, and that the Sea Peoples are genetic ancestors of the modern Palestinians means little if there is no reasonable cultural connection. Really, every Eurasian human alive today is likely descended from the Sea Peoples. The most recent common ancestor of all humans on Earth lived between 2000-5000 years ago (excluding genetically isolated populations) and it's much closer for people from populations which have had more recent chances to intermingle. It is meaningless to say the Palestinians are genetically descended from the Sea Peoples, since essentially so haven't the French and the Swedes and the Russians and the Moroccans and the Afghans and etc.... When we're looking at a culturally-defined people group, the only thing that matters is social connections, language, and culture. I know of no scholarship that indicates the modern Palestinian people are culturally related to the Sea Peoples/Philistines/etc. --Jayron32 19:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Well, I deleted it so yeah. Also, there's no genetic evidence either since we have no genetic samples of Sea Peoples or Canaanites for that matter. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
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- Yes, but that's actually part of the point; culture is not genetics, and that the Sea Peoples are genetic ancestors of the modern Palestinians means little if there is no reasonable cultural connection. Really, every Eurasian human alive today is likely descended from the Sea Peoples. The most recent common ancestor of all humans on Earth lived between 2000-5000 years ago (excluding genetically isolated populations) and it's much closer for people from populations which have had more recent chances to intermingle. It is meaningless to say the Palestinians are genetically descended from the Sea Peoples, since essentially so haven't the French and the Swedes and the Russians and the Moroccans and the Afghans and etc.... When we're looking at a culturally-defined people group, the only thing that matters is social connections, language, and culture. I know of no scholarship that indicates the modern Palestinian people are culturally related to the Sea Peoples/Philistines/etc. --Jayron32 19:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- And why not just say "Jews"? Instead of listing all the major Jewish ethnic groups? --Monochrome_Monitor 16:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, they don't. You should do more research. They say Turks are descended from Chinese and Siberian ethnic groups. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually researchers do say that about the Turkish people. And Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians are already on the list under the first term, Levantines. Lazyfoxx (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Lol on the Philistines. Living in the same place doesn't make you related. No one says that the Turks are descended from the Anatolians. I also think Syrians and Lebanese should be re-added since they are the ethnic groups closest to the Palestinians. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's not quite fair to call those poor blighters philistines. They have enough abuse on the plate without that :)Nishidani (talk) 15:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- The point being that there is agreement that Sea Peoples should be removed as not a specific ethnonym but a vague term for a congeries of tribal groups. If you check the thread, MM, I and Lazyfoxx have already concurred on this. Philistines is a biblical ethnonym, like Amorites, etc., and since the Philistines qua Sea Peoples settled in Palestine is another question, autonomously or via Egyptian fiat, or both, they no doubt constituted one of the ethnoi that went to make up the resident population, and, just as the Israelitic groups, they mixed heavily with other populations already present in the area. The number of groups who ended up there is extremely numerous. There is a lot of 'spin' in the history of the scholarship (it took decades to establish the obvious fact that there is a profound overlap between Semitic and Greek mythic cores. History is promiscuous. There is even a 'Slavic' constituent in certain Palestinian areas, like Yanun, dating back to the 1870s.Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. The archaeological record is overflowing with evidence for the existence of "ancient central hill peoples" and "ancient coastal peoples". But in 150 years of research, there is absolutely no evidence connecting the "ancient central hill peoples" to the name "Israelites" and the "ancient coastal peoples" to the name "Philistines". These are just Biblical designations that have been applied by modern scholars for ease of use based on an assumption (and perhaps some cognitive bias). Oncenawhile (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- The cognitive bias is not a 'perhaps'. Most neutral scholars accept that the Bible is a partisan document, rewriting heavily tribal legends with significant 'romantic' elaboration, and thus what is said of both ingroup and outgroup is not to be taken as 'historical fact', but rather evidence to be scoured to ascertain possible facts, as they are framed by a variety of internally cogent hypotheses that sit better with what archaeology actually tells us. Much of the tale of David and Goliath recurs in the Iliad, and it was quite possible a bilingual Greek-speaking coastal bard who passed the story on in a way that enabled the biblical rewriters to patch it in to the David cycle. Who said 'Philistines' were culturally illiterate!Nishidani (talk) 21:07, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. The archaeological record is overflowing with evidence for the existence of "ancient central hill peoples" and "ancient coastal peoples". But in 150 years of research, there is absolutely no evidence connecting the "ancient central hill peoples" to the name "Israelites" and the "ancient coastal peoples" to the name "Philistines". These are just Biblical designations that have been applied by modern scholars for ease of use based on an assumption (and perhaps some cognitive bias). Oncenawhile (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- There is a great reluctance to do DNA tests on the ample ossuary remains (it's technically difficult) from the Biblical period, as well, some of it stemming from religious quarters. If it were possible to extract DNA from the massive Tel Lachish gravesites you'd have a very precise index of the genetic makeup of that region at the time of Sennacherib. The stuff's all sitting in the museum storerooms. No one seems interested.Nishidani (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- It goes against sentiments regarding the treatment of the dead. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:52, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also, Canaanites probably shouldn't be in related groups either, unless there are genetic sources. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Nope. Genetics and history are two different disciplines, in a relationship of evidentiary complementarity, meaning their independent results or hypotheses have to be harmonized. To make genetics the hermeneutic dominus, particularly when genetic papers make historical comments that are often stupid to any historian's eye, is to exclude the harder field and textual evidence which is highly specific on dates and cultures, to favour 'race', always a dubious concept, even if masqueraded under words like ethnos etc.Nishidani (talk) 07:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but the vast majority of ethnic groups pages only list extant peoples. Ie, you could put Canaanites under related groups for Jews (they are far closer to Canaanites than Palestinians because Israelites were an offshoot of Canaanite), but we don't. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- It goes against sentiments regarding the treatment of the dead. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:52, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, no one said anything about earlier neolithic. Canaanites are largely Bronze Age. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:25, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Israelis and Jordanians[edit]
Since when are the 1.6 million Arab Israelis and 3.2 million Jordanians classed as "Palestinians"? This is nothing but propaganda. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 04:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
- See [3] for self-identification as Palestinians for the Palestinians in Israel. As far as Jordan, I wasnt even aware thats in dispute. nableezy - 15:17, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
An article can't just assert that citizens of other states are "Palestinians." Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel. In Jordan, apart from the Palestinians living in the UNRWA camps, Jordanians are Jordanian citizens. The assertion (often made) that they are "really" Palestinians is nonsense, since both Palestine and (Trans)Jordan were artificial entities created by the British at the same time. Before that the Arab inhabitants of region had no national identity other than as Ottoman subjects. In the Arab world nationality is determined by state frontiers, arbitrary those these may be. If you live in Jordan you're a Jordanian. This is just a propagandist exercise designed to inflate the number of Palestinians in the world. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 00:07, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
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- Whether it is a surprise or not, being a citizen of Israel or Jordan does not magically change their ethnicity and ancestry. Lazyfoxx (talk) 19:08, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
- There is no "Palestinian ethnicity" (Palestinians are Arabs), and no "Palestinian ancestry" beyond 1918, when the British drew lines on a map of Ottoman Syria and said "let's call this bit Palestine." The Palestinians are a nationality, like Israelis and Jordanians. The Palestinian nation consists of the (Arab) residents of the Palestinian Territories, plus the residents of the UNRWA camps in the neighbouring states. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 08:05, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
- Whether it is a surprise or not, being a citizen of Israel or Jordan does not magically change their ethnicity and ancestry. Lazyfoxx (talk) 19:08, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2015[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The beginning part of the page should state that they are ethnically Arab. 79.181.174.49 (talk) 20:42, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Not done: The second paragraph of the lede goes into quite some detail on the genetic background of Palestinians Cannolis (talk) 12:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Not enough words about the denial of the existance of the Palestinian People[edit]
- Zuheir Mohsen, leader the the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979 said: The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
- Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist said: "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?"
- Joseph Farah, an Arab journalist said: "There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today... No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough".
- Awni Abd al-Hadi, a Palestinian political figure said: "There is no such country [as Palestine].... Palestine is a term the Zionists invented.... Our country was for centuries part of Syria." Crum, Bartley C. Behind The Silken Curtain. Page 25. Victor Gollancz Ltd., London. 1947.
- The delegate of Saudi Arabia United Nations Security Council, Ahmad al-Shukeiri, the first Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization said in 1956: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
- Hafez al-Assad said to Yasser Arafat: "You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people" Bolter21
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- Thanks for illustrating exactly what rubbish we must keep out of the article. Zerotalk 00:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. It's an interesting point though. These type of quotes are known amongst a right-wing community of conspiracy theorists, who believe that they somehow lift the lid on a grand political scheme. It could be worth adding a deconstruction of this as a paragraph in the article. It would in effect be "an introduction to nationalism 101". As an illustration, perhaps we could compare it to the Jewish national identity debate in the 19th and early 20th centuries, where many Jews believed that the concept of a "Jewish people" was bunk. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for illustrating exactly what rubbish we must keep out of the article. Zerotalk 00:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Genetics[edit]
Monochrome Monitor, "Palestinian Christians" are not mentioning in the link you provided. Please provide a new link. Your edit will shortly be reverted - please get consensus here first before proceeding. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:21, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
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- It's mentioned in the article. The source listed as "Ana Teresa Fernandes; Rita Gonçalves; Sara Gomes; Dvora Filon; Almut Nebel; Marina Faerman; António Brehm (November 2011). "Y-chromosomal STRs in two populations from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area: Christian and Muslim Arabs". National Center for Biotechnology Information." The very distinct haplotype distributions of Muslim and Christian Palestinians is certainly significant enough to warrant inclusion in the lead. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:25, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
- Upon further review, I think mentioning the haplotype differences between Palestinian Christians and Muslims would be fine. But Perhaps it would be better to say it has an effect on their haplotype, a specific part of their genetics. So instead it would read, "Genetic studies have found religion has a large effect on the YDNA of Palestinians — with Palestinian Christians and Muslims showing distinct distributions of many different haplotypes." Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- Feel free to add that, I can't stand confrontation. --Monochrome_Monitor 01:32, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
- Upon further review, I think mentioning the haplotype differences between Palestinian Christians and Muslims would be fine. But Perhaps it would be better to say it has an effect on their haplotype, a specific part of their genetics. So instead it would read, "Genetic studies have found religion has a large effect on the YDNA of Palestinians — with Palestinian Christians and Muslims showing distinct distributions of many different haplotypes." Lazyfoxx (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
- It's mentioned in the article. The source listed as "Ana Teresa Fernandes; Rita Gonçalves; Sara Gomes; Dvora Filon; Almut Nebel; Marina Faerman; António Brehm (November 2011). "Y-chromosomal STRs in two populations from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area: Christian and Muslim Arabs". National Center for Biotechnology Information." The very distinct haplotype distributions of Muslim and Christian Palestinians is certainly significant enough to warrant inclusion in the lead. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:25, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
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"Ethnic Group"[edit]
Consensus was gained for the statement that Palestinians are an ethnic group long ago. See for example /Archive 22. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:57, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- : No, there was no consensus, but the discussion was about, how to define the most efficiently the Palestinians And also, if the Palestinans could be define as a People....
::::There is a problem, since last year, in this area regarding articles on history, of trying to overcome our natural state of uncertainty, or provisory knowledge, or temporary consensus on complex historical questions, by leaping on the genetics bandwagon. Genetics is being used to back one of several theories of the origin of Yiddish, of the territorial origins of modern people, to define indeed, modern peoples, and to support one side in a multi-faced, theoretically intricate series of hypotheses. This is extremely dangerous because the incremental growth of knowledge is due to the sophistication of research awareness of how political, social and other factors tend to impinge on our conceptualizations, something that affects particularly an area as ideologically overheated as the I/P area. There is a substantial literature on the political uses by Palestinians of Canaanite roots, as there is on the sociology of theories of Jewish (or any other) identity. There are assumed facts, and meta-analysis of the way historiography produces those facts, and in all ethnic-invested areas of wiki, these two levels of discourse are confused by partisans who fail to disentangle the two.
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- I'm personally unhappy with all restrictive definitions of identity, which is, I believe how we reconstruct selectively our various, respective pasts in terms of a group affiliation. I like the Palestinian definition we have because it is very generic. As soon as you get into the nitty gritty, however, by trying to add to its vagueness, points that highlight one or other part of it, you get into trouble, as you do with all such definitions. I've been accused of double-standards in adducing the genetic paper here. In fact I do not think genetics papers are satisfactory sources for history (NMMGG rightly notes this). I do however think that when biblical scholars, historians, area specialists, and public intellectuals can be shown to concur on a definition, then adducing also a genetic paper as a supplementary source, (as Dlv argues) is reasonable, if only to show that the simple sentence has support from several interrelated disciplines. What one should not do, as was done on the Ashkenazi Jews page, is invent a definition that is itself definitionally flawed and historically false, and then, since no historical source supports it, propose an ostensible RS from genetics as unique confirmation of its veracity. Anne Hart there was patently wrong (distinguished geneticists do not publish self-publish and a glance at the text will show the writer is not a geneticist). Nor can you, as Tritomex now says, replace it with a better source in genetics.
- One of the complications here, which I haven't mentioned, is that if you consult the literature on the definition of Palestinian Christians, then you will google up dozens of very good sources which clearly affirm their historic roots in ancient Israel/Palestine. If you do this for Palestinian Muslims, then all of a sudden the issue gets tetchy, difficult, controversial, and an extremely high bar of evidence is demanded before any statement that implies, suggests or states that they have historic roots in the area is passed, and even then grudgingly. I see that as a systemic bias in our eurocentric sources and in our general failure to step out of our natural frameworks of perception to try and get a balanced perspective. The sentence we have is vague, generic and well-sourced, though not perfect. In the meta-context it is a fair navigation between the pressures, official and otherwise, of denial of Palestinian roots, and the flimsy rhetoric of Palestinian Canaanitism.Nishidani (talk) 11:19, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
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Khazen48 (probably a sockpuppet of Silvertrail) propose by POV pushing whitout even one reference to change the proper definition to this incorrect statement : "The Palestinian people are an ethnic group .
--Point by point (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)--Point by point (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2015 (UTC)(edited)
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- No, there is no scholary consensus. If you are supportive of the Khazen48 proposition, cite sources. The issue is not about me nor Zionism. --... Point by point ... (talk) 22:35, 13 October 2015 (UT
- http://www.socresonline.org.uk/10/3/khattab.html Lazyfoxx (talk) 22:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
- No, there is no scholary consensus. If you are supportive of the Khazen48 proposition, cite sources. The issue is not about me nor Zionism. --... Point by point ... (talk) 22:35, 13 October 2015 (UT
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- Could you provide sources of the exact subject or of a scholarly consensus? Nabil Khattab and Sami Miaari describe the Arab israelis as Palestinians, to back up their thesis of an hypothetical inequality between ethnic groups in the Israeli Labor Market. While other studies prove the opposite. I think, adding this sentence would suffice:
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The PLO molded and developed the construction and creation of the palestinian ethnicity symbolized by Islam and the Arabic language.[1][2][3]
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... Point by point ... (talk) 02:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm sorry you seem to not believe the Palestinian ethnic group exists, when in plain site a scholarly source says it does. I wonder why you are not giving other ethnic group pages the scrutiny of this one? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:36, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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- Regarding the fact that it is not consensual, is not serious to write it in the opening sentence, whatsoever. And it is not like if, the Palestinian were stricly an ethnic group. Why don't you consider all other groups as ethnic groups then? (e.g. the syrians, the lebaneese or the jordanians)--... Point by point ... (talk) 03:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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- I'm sorry you seem to not believe the Palestinian ethnic group exists, when in plain site a scholarly source says it does. I wonder why you are not giving other ethnic group pages the scrutiny of this one? Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:36, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- They are all respective ethnic groups, just as Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, and Sephardi Jews are ethnic groups. Lazyfoxx (talk) 03:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
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Could I suggest everyone here reads Imagined Communities. Ethnicity is not a scientific fact, but a political construct. European Jews debated their identity throughout the Haskalah; only with the advent of Zionism did the concept of a modern "Jewish ethnicity" become widely held. Palestinian ethnicity is no different. Jews and Palestinians are both ethnic groups, because their nationalisms define them as such. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:14, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
JSTOR article[edit]
Does anyone have access to:
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2979/israelstudies.18.2.11
Oncenawhile (talk) 12:19, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
- ^ Toland, Judith Drick (1993). The final factor in the developpement of the palestinian ethnicity was the explicit effort of the OLP to mold and develop it. Transaction Publishers. p. 178.
- ^ González, Nancie L. Solien (1989). Conflict, Migration, and the Expression of Ethnicity. Perseus Books. p. 121.
- ^ Schulz, Helena Lindholm. The Reconstruction of Palestinian Nationalism: Between Revolution and Statehood. Manchester University Press.
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