Talk:Paul Newman

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography / Actors and Filmmakers / Sports and Games (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers (marked as High-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the sports and games work group (marked as Low-importance).
WikiProject Sports Car Racing (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sports Car Racing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sports Car Racing on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
WikiProject United States / Ohio (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Ohio (marked as High-importance).
WikiProject Religion / Unitarian Universalism (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Unitarian Universalism work group.
WikiProject Cleveland (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Cleveland, the scope of which includes Cleveland and the Greater Cleveland Area; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment[edit]

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Newman article under attack from HarveyCarter IPs SP[edit]

Revert all sock puppet additions in this 92.8 to 92.12 IP range.

~ WikiDon (talk) 08:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


He is in the categories Americans of Jewish descent and Jewish actors. Was he Jewish or merely of Jewish descent? He self-identified as Jewish. His father was Jewish, but his mother was not. Was he a religiously observant Jew and/or a convert? What religion was he raised in? If he is categorised as Jewish, he should be in the American Jews category, not Americans of Jewish descent. If he is not regarded as actually Jewish, but merely of part Jewish ancestry, he should not be in the Jewish actors category. Werdnawerdna (talk) 18:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

According to Jewish law, Newman was not Jewish. To be Jewish, you have to have a Jewish mother. --Gilabrand (talk) 19:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

There are many people who self-identify as Jewish, yet were not born of a Jewish mother. These include people with a Jewish father and people who convert to Judaism. Whilst many matrilineal Jews do not consider such people to be real Jews, there are many people not born of a Jewish mother who are currently in Jewish (not merely Jewish descent) categories on Wikipedia. His father was a lifelong Jew and Paul self-identifed as Jewish. Werdnawerdna (talk) 02:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

If you convert, then it is not "self identifying", it's being Jewish - Jewish law is the first to say this. No "matrilineal Jew" considers a convert as anything other than another Jew. Now I've heard that Newman considered himself Jewish, but I can't seem to find anything concrete to put in the article - or even a good spot to throw it in. However, he shouldn't be put in any list that is specifically for categorical Jews.FlaviaR (talk) 02:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Some fully-Jewish/matrilineal Jews do not accept converts that were not born of a Jewish mother to be Jewish. Jews in general do not seek out converts, and many discourage it. Many Jews view converts and prospective converts to Judaism with suspicion. Some people, who were not born Jewish, claim to have become Jewish, yet have never practised Judaism. Can such people really be regarded as Jews? Newman self-identified as Jewish because "it's more of a challenge". If that, along with the fact his father was Jewish, is all there is to his Jewishness, then he was of partial Jewish descent, but not a Jew himself. Werdnawerdna (talk) 23:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

An article about Paul Newman hardly seems like the place to settle the age-old question of "what is a Jew?" If we have reliable sources where he considers himself to be Jewish, that should be enough for Wikipedia, especially if it's worded correctly. We don't need to try to settle the may never be settled and that has nothing to do with Newman.  Frank  |  talk  00:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you, Frank, above, and I made those points on Gilabrand's talk page. Epson291 (talk) 04:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone really have a problem with saying "Paul Newman considered himself Jewish" & leaving it at that?FlaviaR (talk) 06:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
If you've got a reliable source, no problem. Ed Fitzgerald t / c 01:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Firstly, it is already sourced by Time, which is as reliable as sources come. Second, I do have a problem with removing the categories which identify him as Jewish, I'm not sure if that's what you're proposing or not, as I said before, he identified as a Jew, had a Jewish father, and the largest Jewish denomination in the United States would regard him as a Jew, it is not right to remove the category. The definitions on defining Jewishness is not clear cut, and doing it only as Orthodox Judaism would see it would be NPOV (see Who_is_a_Jew#The_controversy). Other than that, unless there is anything more concrete on his Jewishness I would just leave what is already in the article, no need to make a big deal about it. Epson291 (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Newman=Not Polish I think he should reconsider his ancestral roots, because that is either English or German.Davido488 (talk) 13:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Strange sentences in Jewish articles[edit]

What is the point of having the sentence:

Newman had described himself as Jewish, stating that "it's more of a challenge"?

This only seem to be added to make someone "more Jewish" (if by law, their mother isn't) as you never see it used with other ancestries. "Newman had described himself as Hungarian" or "Newman had described himself as Christian" Nobody ever bothers to search for and add that. There's a similar sentence in the Neve Campbell article:

Campbell is Roman Catholic, but also identifies as Jewish because of her mother's Sephardic Jewish ancestry, about which she has said: "I am a practicing Catholic, but my lineage is Jewish, so if someone asks me if I'm Jewish, I say yes".

Again, why was this dug up? It doesn't seem to be done with other ancestries, and it feels weird. We report their background, why not leave it at that? What significance do these sentences have other than to tickle the fancy of Jewish grandmas wondering if they're favorite celebrities identify with their religion? Bulldog123 00:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

New image[edit]

New image on commons

Your image has been deleted. :( We really need to get a good picture of this important person. --Tocino 06:02, 08 October 2008 (UTC)

I notice that the picture of him is from 2007. Is it preferable to use recent pictures, or to use a picture of the person when they were in their prime? Is there a guideline or policy on that? I would certainly prefer the former approach. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 02:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It's recommended to use a more recent image. And a free use one. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
But that doesn't make sense to me - all public figures (alive or dead) need to look as old as possible? I mean, it doesn't seem to apply to people who died before Wikipedia started. The picture that they use for Jimmy Stewart, for example, is from the 1950s, not from the 1990s. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 09:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Regardless, it's recommended to use the most current and valid image as possible. Newman was still making films in 2005 and doing voice work in 2007, the date of the image used in the infobox. It's as valid as any other image of him. I'm not sure that Newman would have considered his prime, at least work-wise, 40 years earlier. It's not a matter of "looking as old as possible", it's a matter of available free-use images, the length of the body of work and what editors agree upon. We can't replace a current free image with one that is non-free from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Wildhartlivie (talk) 12:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Not disputing your claim, but you have used the phrase "it's recommended to use the most recent image" several times in variation. Could you provide a cite where this recommendation occurs in WP guidelines? I haven't found one. My opinion, BTW, is that the image should be one in which the subject is most recognizable for the period in which he or she is best known. For example, film star Anita Page was huge in silent pictures, then practically disappeared from public view until she did a few TV interviews in her 90s. It seems strange (and, to me, silly) to insist on some image of her when she was a shrunken and unrecognizable little old lady instead of one from her prime. My opinion. I would appreciate that cite, though. Thank you.Monkeyzpop (talk) 18:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


Paul went to Kenyon College (my grandparents were in his graduating class), not Ohio State. I'm not good at edits, so can someone add this? The source would be Kenyon's website - Thanks. (talk) 15:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't claim that he went to OSU. Nothing needs fixed. —Politizer( talkcontribs ) 15:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Unitarian Universalism[edit]

Newman was apparently a Unitarian Universalist. See [1]. I'm not sure where this should go into the article. Aleta Sing 18:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

If you can find examples of how he was involved in the church, you might be able to put it under Political activism, as the UU church is often fairly politically active. Or, if you can find proof that he was raised UU (as opposed to joining later in his life), you could put it under Early life. —Politizertalk • contribs ) 14:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions, Politizer. I think he probably did become UU later in life; I read somewhere that he was introduced to it by Woodward. That was not a citeable source, however. So far I have not been able to find really anything beyond what I've already posted. I'm hoping some more about his UUism will appear in reliable sources so we can flesh it out a bit. Aleta Sing 17:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Non-notable source[edit]

I've deleted references to Paul Newman: The Dream Has Ended!: Part One by Jenifer Demers as a non-notable reference in the bibliography. The "book" is a 32-page pamphlet, apparently self-published, written in a manner more reminiscent of something from a not-very-literate fan than of a reliable source. For further information, see I appreciate the writer's devotion to Newman, but this work has no place in an encyclopedic bibliography. Comment invited. Monkeyzpop (talk) 04:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


In what movie did Paul Newman's character's brother drown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes a Great Notion Monkeyzpop (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Lung cancer[edit]

Does anyone know when he was actually diagnosed? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 11:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Simpsons dedication[edit]

The Simpsons episode Lost Verizon has a (seemingly sarcastic) dedication to the memory of Paul Newman at the end. It depicts a bottle of his salad dressing. (talk) 00:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sooner or later, every celebrity/actor gets mentioned on The Simpsons and/or South Park. It's not unusual. Wildhartlivie (talk) 08:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Fidelity claims[edit]

An open secret has recently emerged casting doubt on his claims of fidelity. See the following link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Auto racing[edit]

Does this, "and auto racing enthusiast.", merit inclusion alongside his other occupations in the intro sentence? I've never seen someone's recreational hobbies included like this in a WP article. (talk) 10:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It was a bit more that a recreational hobby. See the other sentence "He also won several national championships as a driver in Sports Car Club of America road racing, and his race teams won several championships in open wheel IndyCar racing" and the entire section Auto racing. He placed second in the 1979 24 Hours of Le Mans, was the oldest driver to be part of a winning team in a major sanctioned race in his class at the 1995 24 Hours of Daytona, co-founded Newman/Haas Racing, was a partner in Newman Wachs Racing and owned a NASCAR Winston Cup car. It was a business venture that was notable. Wildhartlivie (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Did Newman finish his Yale drama studies?[edit]

I read recently bits of a chatty bio of Newman. The author states that Newman did not complete his course of study at Yale Drama School; rather, he resettled in New York City for paying work after spending some time at the Drama School. I'll research this point, and edit accordingly this and the Yale Alumni entries. Anyone know more than I do now on this point?SLY111 (talk) 18:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)SLY111

What bio is that? There have been a couple released that are less than accurate and reliable. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Paul Newman, artist[edit]

I have come across a pen and ink pix of a young robert redford. It is signed Newman. I am curious because he was a multi tallented man and one of my favorite actors. Personally, I don't think he did any artwork, but I would kike to know for sure. My curiosity is peaked! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No idea. You'd be better asking an autograph dealer about the signature, but you won't find that here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a pen and ink portrait of robert redford in his 30's. Is it possible paul newman did this. It is signed Newman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
No idea. You'd be better asking an autograph dealer about the signature, but you won't find that here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Marriage date(s)?[edit]

Comparing Paul's and Joanne's articles:

"Newman married actress Joanne Woodward on February 2, 1958."
"Woodward married Paul Newman on January 29, 1958."

Why did they marry each other on two different dates? Maybe there is a missing fact which should be mentioned?


Actually, you go with the date that has a sold reference with it, which was on February 2, 1958. ("Remembering Paul Newman." People. September 27, 2008.) Wildhartlivie (talk) 20:34, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Early works[edit]

Perhaps more detailed research should be done to include a more complete history of Paul Newman's acting career. I have recently viewed an episode of Suspense (TV series) in which he appeared briefly (as Captain Radetski) in the second act, and more prominently in the third act. The episode: "Woman in Love" (episode #160) aired August 26, 1952; [ref: ]. (talk) 20:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Last work[edit]

Was in 2005 in "Empire Falls" mini-series. A real appearance in most episodes, not just a voice. Macaldo (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Paul-Newman-portrait.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Icon Now Commons orange.svg An image used in this article, File:Paul-Newman-portrait.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests May 2011
What should I do?
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.

This notification is provided by a Bot, currently under trial --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Correction to Newman meeting Woodward[edit]

The article states that Newman met Woodward on the set of The Long Hot Summer. Newman met Woodward while working as understudies in New York on the play "Picnic". By 1958, Newman was already separated from his wife, he and Woodward were living together in California, and married this same year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

confusion about children[edit]

The children in the article and the children listed on the side bar are not the same. Who is Jack Newman and where is the second daughter from the first marriage? (talk) 15:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Political Activism and Gay Rights not verifiable under citation quoted[edit]

The link to the "Actively supported gay rights" contains absolutely no reference to being a supporter let alone an open supporter. Further, there is no mention of "gay" anywhere IN the article. I believe this allegation should be challenged and opted to voice concern here first in case I have missed something?NunyaBitnes (talk) 17:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)NunyaBitnes

Second paragraph of Military Service[edit]

This is a confusing paragraph. Looking at reference 13, I can understand some of what happened, but our paragraph is badly phrased, at best. The squadron he was assigned to was sent to an unknown carrier, but his aircraft was grounded from that assignment because of the pilot's ear infection. The others (all?) in the squadron were killed on that carrier. He then performed further service. If I knew more about it I'd try to fix it, but someone should. htom (talk) 14:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


There seems to be conflicting info about his birthplace. I see Shaker Heights (1, 2, 3), Cleveland Heights (1, 2, 3), and Cleveland ( 1). Does anyone have sources of official records or cities claiming him? Given the sources, I'm most inclined to believe it's Cleveland Heights (as noted by local newspapers and historians), but felt it was worth discussion. EvergreenFir (talk) 16:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Infobox image[edit]

There seems to be a dispute about the infobox image and I think it might be a good idea to discuss this rather than continue to revert each other. My personal view is that the image of Newman and Woodward is a better image because the alternative image proposed looks like it was taken while Newman was on the toilet and the lighting makes it harder to look at.-- Mrmatiko (talk) 09:02, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

They're both good, but I'd go for the john shot. His eyes and face are lit better, with more color and depth, where the other one is in shadow. It's also a bit distracting to have two people instead of one. --Light show (talk) 09:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
I certainly agree that a picture of Paul alone would be preferable but I find it difficult to look at the publicity shot. This image would have been good if it didn't have other peoples' heads in the way. Maybe this one from 1954 would be better? -- Mrmatiko (talk) 09:40, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
I vote for "Paul Newman - publicity". It's a nice clear head shot and comes from the era when he was at his peak. --Loeba (talk) 13:11, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • My position is fairly obvious; the publicity shot is awful. The lighting is utter garbage, and it makes him look very unpleasant. I cannot understand why people think that is an acceptable picture to use, given how poor the colours are. I'd be perfectly happy with the 1954 picture; the lighting is reasonable, he doesn't look like he's badly ill, and there's nothing wrong with black-and-white. The 1987 one isn't really that good, and he's quite a lot older in that one. Lukeno52 (tell Luke off here) (legitimate alternate account of Lukeno94) 13:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't dislike the publicity shot, and I think it is better for this use than the dual shot (which could be used later In the article). I do prefer the black and white however. --kelapstick(on the run) 01:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, some editor just tagged the publicity photo for deletion. Apparently it was taken and copyrighted around 2006, just before he died, which they feel is more likely than it being a prime example of copyfraud. Newman was noted for looking youthful. The 1954 shot is my 2nd choice. --Light show (talk) 19:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • It's highly unlikely that the image itself was from 2006; that is two years before he died, and he would've been 81. If you look at the deletion thread on Commons, you'll see that the copyright is attributed to the company who initially uploaded the still, and not the original image creators; I would expect that request to fail. Lukeno52 (tell Luke off here) (legitimate alternate account of Lukeno94) 20:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry Luke, but after looking at all the options I pick the publicity shot as well. It's a shame, though, that we don't have more choices. Drmies (talk) 05:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
    • The Getty Images version of the color publicity shot is much better than the version being debated, but it is watermarked. The photo with Woodward is wonderful and belongs in the article, but not in the infobox. I vote for the 1954 image, cropped tighter to his face. I hope a better freely licensed image can be found. What a wonderful guy he was! Excuse that opinionated comment. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:36, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
The photo of him and Woodward is still in the Personal life section, so I added a new one for the lead. The 1954 photo was his debut film and not really a prime career photo. Hope the new one is OK. --Light show (talk) 08:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I like the new image, seems more suitable for the infobox than any of the other images in the article. -- Mrmatiko (talk) 08:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm happy as well. My objection was to the terrible publicity shot, so :) And yeah, the Woodward/Newman shot definitely has to be in the article. Lukeno52 (tell Luke off here) (legitimate alternate account of Lukeno94) 11:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Cullen, I have it on good authority that you and Newman used to go toe to toe in male beauty contests. Is this true? Drmies (talk) 15:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Well done, Light show. As for you, Drmies, I have two aphorisms for 2014: "Question authority!" is the well known one. I wrote the other one, "Question those who question authority". Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
To be fair and play it safe, I also gave Joanne Woodward a new lead image. It's not that I believe in ghosts or anything, but . . . . Light show (talk) 18:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Not a bad idea whatsoever, particularly as that image is very good. I'm glad this has been rectified to pretty much everyone's contentment. Lukeno52 (tell Luke off here) (legitimate alternate account of Lukeno94) 19:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Contentious edit regarding Newman's mother[edit]

It seems that this edit about Newman's mother is contentious. Rather than edit warring, it seems sensible to discuss this here.

My view is that the assertions made shouldn't be in the article because they seem to imply something through an interpretation of the lack of evidence, rather than any secondary source that provide actual evidence that Newman's mother isn't of the ancestry stated in the article. -- Mrmatiko (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The evidence re her baptism can be disputed. The immigration-record evidence, no. I found that record; that was clearly hers; go look at yourself. (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
In edit summary, the IP editor mentioned a link to a St. Mary's University of Minnesota web page that discusses the advantages of primary sources in doing research at the university level. That is all well and good for university research. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and we simply don't publish original research of any kind. Instead, we summarize what the best quality independent, reliable sources say about the topic. The best of these will be secondary sources. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." Accordingly, I am not comfortable relying on what someone says they saw in an immigration document for a factual assertion in this biography. Instead, we should summarize what the best biographers of Newman say about his ancestry. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:34, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Drank 24 cans of Coors beer each day[edit]

Newman drank a lot of beer and probably had an affair. So what? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Paul Newman. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Paul Newman movie credits[edit]

Paul Newman had a starring role in a 1963 movie called "The Prize" I did not see this mentioned in his Wikipedia biography. Did I miss it or should it be verified and added?

Fred Dreis174.23.4.208 (talk) 01:19, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

It's not exactly a major film. Plus the image in the infobox is from the film (the caption gives the title and year) and it's in Paul Newman filmography. That's plenty IMO. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:38, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Note on a RfC about "military careers"[edit]

There is currently a discussion and a RfC on Mel Brooks's article about his so-called "military career," noted by an infobox module. Since his military service, similar to that of Don Rickles, was for a few years and before their actual careers began, inserting a massive module in the standard infobox, as in this article, seems both misleading and erroneous. For Newman, his "military career" module takes up about 25% of the infobox, while his notability is for being an actor. And like the others, he never had a "military career."--Light show (talk) 02:07, 6 September 2016 (UTC)