Talk:Pecker Dunne

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I've fully protected this article due to edit warring over a content dispute. Why is it that there is edit warring, but no discussion on this talk page? Dreadstar 05:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I initiated a discussion here, where it seems to have petered out. RashersTierney (talk) 06:12, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Breaches of copyvio do not need discussion. A source was posted which had a copyright claim, and included identical sentences. Kevin McE (talk) 12:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Apparent copyvios should be discussed. There does not appear to be a breach, since the 'reference' (14:15, 20 December 2012 ) clearly post-dates the Wikipedia content (02:34, 1 July 2009). The question of 'circular referencing' is another matter, which could also have been brought up for discussion. RashersTierney (talk) 13:17, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Kevin, in fact you are accusing me of copyvio. I am not happy with that and I politely request you to stop with those accusations. When you have a problem with Clare FM copying text from Wikipedia, you have to complain there. I did not and I never will deliberate commit copyright violations. The Banner talk 14:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
As I have already stated, in was a prima facie case of copyvio, in which case removal of possible infringing text is the correct step. If it is the case that those other websites were reliant on Wikipedia, they cannot be regarded as RS, and the text still fails WP:V, for which the recommended course of action is removal, not discussion. Kevin McE (talk) 15:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
"Removal, not discussion" is exactly why this page is now locked. Is this really not getting through to you? RashersTierney (talk) 16:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
You are at the wrong place. You should file your complaint at Clare FM, not hammer an article because a journalist was lazy. The Banner talk 16:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
It would appear that you did not read what I wrote. Let me repeat it for you: If it is the case that those other websites were reliant on Wikipedia, they cannot be regarded as RS, and the text still fails WP:V. Kevin McE (talk) 16:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
If it makes you happy, I am more than willing to remove that Clare FM article. For those other websites: please prove that they are taking info from Wikipedia. The Banner talk 16:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Examination of text and verifiability[edit]

If we are to claim that copyvio is not breached on the grounds that publication in other sites postdates appearance of the information here and is sourced from this article, then by the principle of circular referencing, we must exclude at least those sentences of those more recent sources.

Patrick (One source has Patrick, one has Padraig: unconfirmed) "Pecker" Dunne (1 April 1933 (only source that specifies 1 April gives 1932 as year of birth, cannot be assumed reliable as every other source says he was 79 at time of death) - 19 December 2012) was an Irish musician and seanchaí.

Dunne was born in Castlebar, County Mayo, "in the old county home". (contradicted in another source, which says he was born in a horse-drawn caravan) His family were Irish Travellers originally from County Wexford, where his father was a fiddle player. (Sourced only to a lyric in a song, which cannot be consider reliable: any autobiographical song might contain poetic licence.) In Parley-poet and Chancer, an autobiography transcribed by Micheál Ó hAodha (page 21), he stated that he later lived in the Dublin suburb of Drimnagh. He was one of Ireland's most noted banjo players (unsourced peacock term) and was also proficient on the fiddle, melodeon and guitar, and was among an elite of Traveller musicians. (Citation is circular sourcing to a previous version of this article, as can be seen from inclusion of the BLP violation in regard to the Fureys)

Dunne became known to a wide Irish audience from his regular busking at GAA sporting fixtures, particularly in Munster. Later he played in England, France, Australia and New York, where he appeared with The Dubliners. He also performed alongside Richard Harris and Stephen Rea in the 1996 feature film Trojan Eddie. (Only source for this is the Ramblinghouse site that contradicts all other sources, including Dunne himself in his voiceover on the RTE piece, and pieces sourced from wikipedia.)

He lived in Killimer, County Clare with his wife and four children, who continue the musical tradition. (There is no evidence as to the age of these children, other than that they were at school in or after 1982, per the registration of the school bus. We have no information from any non-wiki dependent source that the children still play instruments, nor that they are still attached to the family home.) He died there, (We have a source stating that he died at the hospital in Ennis) aged 79, (some sources say 80) and is buried in Burrane, near Killimer. (Only source has Burane, but I note Burrane in googlemaps)

Sources are contradictory and incomplete, and from publications that, even if their reputation suggests otherwise, are of dubious reliability given dependence of Wikipedia. Our knowledge would be enhanced if we knew the date of the bio-doc piece from which clips were shown on RTE.

The omission of any mention of his alcoholism, marriage breakdown and the two children of that marriage casts doubt on the NPOV of the page.

The infobox contradicts the lead as to date of birth.

Kevin McE (talk) 14:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you finished now? Hohenloh + 15:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I think I have adequately illustrated my point about the article not being reliably sourced. Is that what you mean? Kevin McE (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
For "Patrick" Dunne: Obituary on Clare FM, [1]
But it is contradicted in another cited source.
If you don't know that Patrick (English), Padraigh (Irish) and Paddy (popular) are one and the same first name, you better move to another areas of interest than Irish subjects. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Such a patronising attitude ill becomes you. We only have one source that claims to give his official recorded name, and that is not the version that we give. MOS:BIO states, "the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph," our sources don't even agree on what that was. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Buried in Burrane: [2], [3]
Only a spelling issue, but another cited source says Burane.
Look at the map, look at the source. Is it not impossible that someone made a typo? The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The map (google maps), backed up by databases of townlands, give two townlands: Upper and Lower Burrane, but no settlement of the name. Not the biggest of issues, but still some contradiction between sources
Children still playing: [4], [5], [6]
That refers to his oldest son, so presumably one of the two from his first marriage and not one of the four sons of Madeleine. In any case, it does not prove the musical activity of all four children, or whether this son plays publicly other than at his father's funeral.
Read the sources provided. The last one states These days, Dunne is in failing health and no longer performs: he will not be at Sunday’s gala, although his children will be playing the instruments and songs he taught them.. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
OK, good find. I would rather a more formal tone than that they "continue the musical tradition". Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Alcoholism (to be added to article, I don't know why it is left out): [7], [8]
Family from Wexford: [9], [10]
I wasn't challenging that, but the detail of his father being a fiddler is sourced only to a song, which is not reliable.
There are enough sources available to prove it, not only the song. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I look forward to seeing one. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Busking at GAA matches: [11], [12], unusable as source, but see the edit from Xenophile, p. 100
Both published after the claim appeared in Wikipedia, therefore cannot be a source under circular sourcing.
Not every journalist turns to Wikipedia for information, some newspaper have something called an "archive". The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
The only other sources were published after it appeared in Wikipedia. They do not justify appearance of the claims before they were published. Looking again, they do have enough material not found in Wiki to agf on their part (although one repeats the apparently disproved "born in a caravan" claim, so reliabilty cannot b taken as certain). Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Rambling House: I guess this is a better source, as it is dated: [13]
This is the source that provides a year of birth and place contradicted by Dunne's voiceover, and the version of his first name that you reject.
Nobody is perfect, not even the guy who wrote this article on Rambling House. But the fact that he was wrong, does make al the other sources wrong or dodgy. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
In assessing whether a source is reliable, there is little we can do other than to examine the commitment to accuracy by comparing it with what we know from elsewhere to be true. On that count, the blog comes out badly. It might be correct in some areas: the issue is that we cannot rely on it to be correct. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

About being born "in the old county home" in Castlebar in 1933: It is The Pecker himself who told that in the RTE newsreel. I guess he was there at the moment it happened... Face-smile.svg
I would not trust myself as a source on the details of time and place of my own birth: my parents' recollection would be much clearer. But assuming he has been reliably informed on these details, it casts great doubt on the reliability of the Rambling House blog as a source.
There you might have a point. But you need a lot of words before you make it clear that you just want better sources than Rambling House and the Clare FM article. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
And you have found some, congratulations. They should have gone into the article when the claims were made. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Can you explain "The infobox contradicts the lead as to date of birth." as I see only the same dates for his birth.
Apologies: I should have put date of death
About his marriage breakdown: please provide sources
The RTE footage that you cite above.
Do you have relevant information about this marriage, like name of the bride, wedding date and the date of the end of the marriage? I did see something about a relationship with a Dutch woman, but no evidence of a marriage. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
You have the same access to the source that I have. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
About his two children out of that marriage: please provide sources
The RTE footage that you cite above.
Any names? The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
You have the same access to the source that I have. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
About the POV: perhaps you should take a look at your own edits.
Please identify any occasion when I have proposed or made any POV insertion in respect to this article.
Your general treatment of the article is POV. The Banner talk 20:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
So the answer is "no", you can't. Largely because I have no particular opinion about the man or his music. I have opinions about unsourced claims in Wikipedia though. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
The Banner talk 15:31, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Kevin McE (talk) 16:48, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations to Banner on finding some additional sources that will help improve the article when it is unlocked, but I think it would be naive to claim that sourcing is no longer a problem, or to deny contradictions between them. Kevin McE (talk) 01:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank. I hope we can now receive some proposals for text changes? The Banner talk 01:51, 31 December 2012 (UTC)