Talk:Pentecostalism

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Former featured article candidate Pentecostalism is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
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Current status: Former featured article candidate

Spiritual gifts too simplistic[edit]

I am unfamiliar with the work by Van Cleave, and I object to its simplistic interpretation of the subject of spiritual gifts.

While it might make sense to create simple cladistic categories (i.e., "vocal" gifts), such notions do not fit the descriptions given by the Apostle's writings (i.e., I Cor 12). Paul said that "...to one " (that is, to one sort of believer) is given the gift of tongues, and to another (greek, hallos - another of the same sort) is given the interpretion of tongues. To yet another sort of believer (greek, heteros - another of a different sort) is given the logos of wisdom, or the logos of knowledge. To yet another class of believers are given the remaining gifts (discerning of spirits, miracles, healings, faith, and prophecy.

Prophecy, then, is not classified by the Apostle as a "vocal" gift. It is hard to say what reason there may be for the opinions of Van Cleave, but his source isn't grounded in a careful reading of the Greek text. Still, it leaves one to wonder: whatever reason there is for the distribution of different gifts to different individuals may be found in individual differences in attitude, character, or some other qualifying conditions. To me, there is no question that the Apostle associated certain gifts with individual attributes of the believers who exercised them. Mjmondt (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

He is simply distinguishing between those gifts that involve speech and those they do not. This same categorization has been utilized in the article to provide focused sections for the different gifts. No one is saying Paul would have used that terminology, but there is a similar dichotomy found in 1 Peter 4:11 where is mentioned "whoever speaks" and "whoever renders service." The article does not claim that this is biblical terminology, it only claims that such characteristics have been observed. These differing characteristics are helpful in structuring the article. Unless you have a WP:Reliable source that reflects a Pentecostal viewpoint to back up what you are saying, this falls under the category of WP:No Original Research. Ltwin (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: what is the difference, eith...[edit]

64.185.130.217 posted this comment on 16 June 2013 (view all feedback).

what is the difference, either official or unofficial, between a Pentecostal congregation and an Assemblies of God congregation? What about congregations that bill themselves as both Pentecostal AND Assemblies of God?

Any thoughts?

The Assemblies of God is a denomination within the Pentecostal movement.
DocRushing (talk) 04:18, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

The Foursquare Gospel[edit]

"Pentecostals emphasize the teaching of the "full gospel" or "foursquare gospel". The term foursquare refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism: Jesus saves according to John 3:16; baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:4; heals bodily according to James 5:15; and is coming again to receive those who are saved according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17.[5]" This is technically incorrect and unsupported. I think that they are referring to this book by Dayton that one can find with excerpts on the Internet - "The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism." I am unable to find the statement that the foursquare gospel refers to the four fundamental beliefs of Pentecostalism within that book. The terminology of the "foursquare gospel" is a term uniquely used by the "International Church of the Foursquare Gospel," not by Pentecostalism as a whole. "It's the Foursquare Gospel, the Foursquare Gospel, Clear let the message of the Foursquare ring, Jesus Only Savior, Baptizer, and Healer, Jesus the Coming King." - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QXpWTjacO8 Kids song from Angelus Temple ca. 1925.Easeltine (talk) 16:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

The citation does not refer to Dayton's book, but to an article he wrote in 1980. The full reference can be found in the Reference section of the article (Dayton, Donald W. "Theological Roots of Pentecostalism". Pneuma: The Journal of the Society for Pentecostal Studies 2, no. 1 (Spring 1980): 3-21.) On page 4 of Dayton's article, he uses both "full gospel" and "foursquare gospel" interchangeably. The term "Foursquare" may be associated with the Foursquare Church, but they are not the only Pentecostals who use the concept of four cardinal doctrines to define Pentecostalism. Ltwin (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence that any other Pentecostal group uses the term "Foursquare." The term "Foursquare," is not found in any other Pentecostal group's Statement of Faith. Can anyone provide a reference other than Dayton's article from 1980 that uses the terminology "Foursquare?" Dayton is a Northern Baptist, might be a little skewed perspective. Easeltine (talk) 11:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

The Foursquare Gospel is the peculiar perspective of one denomination, The Church of the Foursquare Gospel. Other denominations which better represent the mainstream of the Pentecostal Movement are the Church of God in Christ, The Assembly of God, and the Church of God (headquartered in Cleveland Tennesee). While none of these churches reject Salvation, Baptism by Fire of the Holy Spirit, Divine Healing and Rapture as cardinal teachings of the early church, other denominations are more balanced and classically Wesleyan in their doctrines and dogmas. Trying to represent the entirity of the Full-Gospel perspectice as the Foursquare Gospel is to terminally truncate the teachings of the Pentecostal movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.111.31 (talk) 20:32, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not the term that is important, but the fact that these are common doctrinal emphases that all classical Pentecostals share. Do you deny that other Pentecostals follow these patterns? The Assemblies of God's own website emphasizes its "Core Doctrines" which are identical to the foursquare gospel paradigm.
Donald Dayton is not Baptist. He is a member of the Wesleyan Church, which is theologically closer to Pentecostalism. He teaches at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, but he's the only non-Pentecostal/charismatic Christian who has ever been elected president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies. In his 1987 book Theological Roots of Pentecostalism, Dayton writes: "These four themes are well-nigh universal within the movement, appearing, as we have been arguing, in all branches and varieties of Pentecostalism" (p. 21-22).
In any case, it is not for us to decide if Dayton "proves" his point or not. Dayton is a reliable source, and Wikipedia defers to reliable sources when deciding what goes into articles. The reliable sources say that the full gospel, fourfold gospel, or foursquare gospel (whatever term one uses) is central to how Pentecostals think about their theology across the different groups within the movement. I think its a fine way to structure the article in terms of what beliefs are most characteristic of Pentecostals. Ltwin (talk) 20:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Pentecostal pastors[edit]

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Category:Pentecostal pastors and related categories have been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. Ltwin (talk) 17:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Appearance of Pentecostals[edit]

Shouldn't the appearance of pentecostals be included. They all follow the old testament on how women and men should appear. With women having long hair and long skirts and men having beards and pants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwesar (talkcontribs) 02:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a source stating that "all" Pentecostals follow this dress code. I can give you many that state that most do not. Some specific groups may have dress codes, but there is not universal Pentecostal "appearance". Ltwin (talk) 05:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
The above dress code is not part of Assemblies of God, Foursquare, or COGIC.Easeltine (talk) 11:23, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
First of all, the teaching comes from New Testament scripture, not Old. Today, that type of dress is typical for Oneness Pentecostalism or Holiness, which is already mentioned in the 1960–present sub-section. Also, there are some groups that teach and dress that way that aren't Pentecostal. And, incidentally, all 3 of those denominations above (plus the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) and others) came out of the Holiness movement, and originally did dress that way, but changed between the late-60s to the early-80s (depending the particular group). --Musdan77 (talk) 03:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
[edit] After saying all that, I notice now that you (Qwesar) said, "men having beards" (??) Did you leave out the word "not"? I don't know of any Pentecostals that teach to have beards. --Musdan77 (talk) 03:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Pentecostalism or Classical Pentecostalism is a renewal movement[1] within Protestant Christianity[edit]

Are you sure, surely many within the protestant Christian community reject Pentecostalism, http://www.gty.org.uk/resources/sermon-series/219/charismatic-chaos , the Westminster confession of faith (aritcle 1,1) http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ , RC Sproul https://www.gty.org/blog/B131008/rc-sproul-on-the-cessationist-convictions-of-the-reformers , what about some differences in core doctrines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism I don't think you can say it is within Protestant or reformed Theology at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeepVeinInsomnia (talkcontribs) 00:05, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

The bigger issue raised here has to do with distinctive that define a particular denomination or movement. To say that: anyone who doesn't accept the pope as titular leader and authoritative prophet and interpreter of scripture and practice is protestant is simplistic in the extreme and factually inaccurate. While Pentecostals do take this stance they do NOT have other distinctives in common with Protestants, such as: doctrine of election, eternal security, and irresistible grace. Pentecostals are also not Sola Scriptura in that they do believe that God continues to speak authoritatively through prophecy given to prophets--both in tongue with interpretation and didactic messages passed in ecstatic utterance in a known language. They are not Sola Gratia in that Classical Pentecostalism teaches that maintenance (not reception) of salvation and of the relationship wherein the spiritual gifts can operate requires a life of obedience to the commands and dictates of OLD AND NEW testament moral law. This is what is alluded to in another comment where the commemorator mentions clothing. The "holiness standards" associated with Pentecost and indeed the classsical Wesleyan tradition at large is an attempt to insure moral dress that avoids the appearance of evil and worldly sensuality. In other words four distinctives: Per Obsequium (as oposed to Sola Gratia, Per Oraculum, the present day outpouring of the Spirit and Gifts, and a total rejection of even one point Calvinism clearly position John Wesley and the Pentecostal offshoot thereof OUTSIDE of the protestant umbrella. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.111.31 (talk) 20:24, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Please post one reliable source that states that John Wesley was not Protestant. Also, please find a reliable source that states Pentecostals reject sola scriptura or sola gratia. Also, please find me a reliable source that states that eternal security and irresistible grace are required beliefs one must hold to be considered Protestant. I have posted reliable sources, unconnected to any denominational perspective, that state that Pentecostals are Protestant. I have posted a reliable source that gives a non-sectarian definition of Protestantism. All anyone else in this discussion has offered are opinion and falsehood. The belief in spiritual gifts of prophecy do not violate Sola Scriptura. In the case of classical Pentecostalism, all prophecies are subject to testing by the Scripture. In order to squash this debate, I'm adding a citation to the claim that Pentecostalism is Protestant. I don't think it needs it as the "Protestantism" of Pentecostalism is well established by sources in the article. Ltwin (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Whether Reformed Protestants like Pentecostalism or not has no bearing on whether Pentecostalism is a Protestant movement (In any case, those Reformed Christians you have cited are not the only representatives of Reformed Christianity on this subject). Reformed churches do not get to decide who is and isn't Protestant. Are you aware that there are and always have been Protestants who disagreed with cessationism? Wikipedia relies on reliable sources to determine what is eligible for inclusion in articles. You can find guidelines for determining what is and is not a reliable source at WP:Reliable Sources.
Many non-Pentecostal Protestants consider Pentecostals to be Protestant. For example, a number of Pentecostal denominations have membership in the National Association of Evangelicals. These include the Assemblies of God USA, the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee), and others. They are in partnership with Reformed denominations such as the Christian Reformed Church in North America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and the Presbyterian Church in America.
Scholars of religion routinely classify Pentecostalism as a subset of evangelical Protestantism. Examples include the PewForum (Why has Pentecostalism grown so dramatically in Latin America?), the Encyclopedia of Pentecostalism and Charismatic Christianity, and Columbia Encyclopedia's entry for "Protestantism". Ltwin (talk) 05:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm all for debate, my thoughts, "Whether Reformed Protestants like Pentecostalism or not has no bearing on whether Pentecostalism is a Protestant movement", so the church of little bo beep can now declare itself a protestant church and it does not matter whether or not that community accepts it? There are many within reformed theology that have deep concerns about Pentecostalism and some claim some strands, such as oneness to be heresy. A similar debate is faced by Mormons that are attempting to have their religion perceived as Christian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity
Are you aware that there are and always have been Protestant who disagree with cessationism? No actually I'm not aware of this, I would particularly welcome examples of this around the reformation (say October 31, 1517 on) or points of note outside the 1500s would also be the 1600s, and 1700s, I would spectacularly impressed if you could draw a conclusive line from the early Church Fathers all the way to today.
"Wikipedia relies on reliable sources", yes exactly could we see some before unsupported comments are added?
"Non-Pentecostal Prostestants consider Pentecostals to be Protestant", the national association of evangelicals is not one such organization with it's membership including churches such as the vineyard church, assemblies of God etc.
"Scholars of religion routinely classify Pentecostalism as subset of evangelical Protestantism", yes pentecostal ones do, what about oneness Pentecostalism is that subset too despite defining a different Godhead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.0.212.88 (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
"so the church of little bo beep can now declare itself a protestant church and it does not matter whether or not that community accepts it?"
"A similar debate is faced by Mormons that are attempting to have their religion perceived as Christian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity"
  • Mormonism is an entirely different category. Mormons reject Sola Scriptura. Pentecostals subscribe to Sola Scriptura. Mormons have an open canon. Pentecostals do not. Mormonism is non-Trinitarian. Most of Pentecostalism is Trinitarian. Mormon baptisms are considered invalid by all Christian churches. Trinitarian Pentecostal baptisms are accepted. Pentecostalism is accepted as Protestant by Christian and academic sources. Mormonism has never been classified as Protestant by any reliable sources.
"I would particularly welcome examples of this around the reformation (say October 31, 1517 on) or points of note outside the 1500s would also be the 1600s, and 1700s, I would spectacularly impressed if you could draw a conclusive line from the early Church Fathers all the way to today."
  • One example would be the Scottish Reformers. See "The Scottish Presbyterians and Covenanters: A Continuationist Experience in a Cessationist Theology" by Dean R. Smith published in the Westminster Theological Journal. Excerpts are available here.
"'Wikipedia relies on reliable sources', yes exactly could we see some before unsupported comments are added?"
  • They are not unsupported. The entire article makes clear, with reliable sources, that Pentecostalism is a branch of evangelicalism. Read the article. As Wikipedia guidelines indicate, the lead section is a summary of the article and therefore citations for every claim in the lead are not necessary since it just repeats what has already been supported by evidence. See WP:LEAD.
"'Non-Pentecostal Prostestants consider Pentecostals to be Protestant', the national association of evangelicals is not one such organization with it's membership including churches such as the vineyard church, assemblies of God etc."
  • All of these Presbyterians and Reformed Christians are wrong??? Or is it you don't consider them "legitimate" Presbyterians because they don't agree with your narrow definition of Protestantism? You can't be the only one getting it right.
"'Scholars of religion routinely classify Pentecostalism as subset of evangelical Protestantism', yes pentecostal ones do, what about oneness Pentecostalism is that subset too despite defining a different Godhead?"
  • You are wrong. It's not just Pentecostal scholars who place it within Protestantism. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed.), published by Oxford University Press (hardly a hotbed of Pentecostalism) writes in its entry on Protestantism:
Because Protestantism has become such an inclusive term, it is difficult to provide a definition of its beliefs; acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revealed truth, the doctrine of justification by faith alone, and the universal priesthood of believers are characteristic. Protestants reject any kind of two-tier spirituality (clerical/monastic and lay); a lay spirituality based on Bible-reading and a high standard of personal morality have been the norm. In general Protestant worship is marked by the participation of the whole congregation, by the public reading of the Bible in the vernacular, and by an emphasis on preaching. Charismatic, Pentecostal Christianity has been an important element in modern Protestantism.
  • Pentecostalism is widely regarded as a form of Protestantism. Oneness Pentecostals do reject the Trinity, which does place them outside of Protestant theology, but Oneness Pentecostals are a small proportion of overall Pentecostals, who are overwhelmingly Trinitarian and considered fully Protestant. Ltwin (talk) 21:56, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Do you think you are maybe mentioning the fringes here and hugely american view, what about southern baptists? What about the Presbyterian Church in the UK?
Pentecostals do not subscribe to Sola Scriptura if they believe they receive extra revelation that is on par with scripture. Mormonism is non-Trinitarian (as are some pentecostals, see point below, a little leaven) again we get to the credibility of sources and I'm yet to see your credible sources which by the above point would have to come from within mainstream reformed theology.
this book was wrote in 2001, I think you would agree, what little reference there might be, which I'm yet to be convinced of, lives in obscurity within the main body of reformed theology.
Again credible sources.
This is a tradition dating back hundreds of years, that occurred in geographically disparate locations yet was unified by it's interpretation of scripture, from which you must support your stance, you are picking sources that are clearly in agreement with you view (also arguably in geographically united locations with varying interpretations of scripture) and ignoring what I would argue to be the majority that are not.
This would honestly grief me if it was true, I'm glad it is not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism and the criteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae at the very least you must acknowledge this definition is disputed and conversely must be tagged in the main article as such.
are you saying their are a subset that do not meet the five solae, but my question is do the "core" set meet them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.164.26 (talk) 19:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Please do not insert your comments inside the comments of others. It causes confusion.
Re: "the american view"-- the Assemblies of God and several other Pentecostal denominations are members of the Evangelical Alliance UK, which like the NAE is a member of the World Evangelical Alliance.
Re: "Pentecostals do not subscribe to Sola Scriptura . . ."-- this is not true. Pentecostals believe that the gift of prophecy continues, but they do not place prophecy on the same level as Scripture. Pentecostals believe that the canon is closed. There is no more Scripture-level revelation. Prophecy is judged by Scripture. Scripture is not judged--it is obeyed. If you read any Pentecostal theological work, this will be plainly stated. A brief example is the Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths. It's first article states: "The Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments, are verbally inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct."
Re: "Mormonism is non-Trinitarian (as are some pentecostals, see point below, a little leaven)"-- yes, and this is mentioned already in the article. Oneness Pentecostals do fall outside of Protestantism, but the vast majority of Pentecostals are Trinitarian—so classifying the whole movement as non-Protestant because of a fringe group is not accurate.
Re: "I'm yet to see your credible sources which by the above point would have to come from within mainstream reformed theology"-- 1) I've provided many credible sources, including the Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, which is as credible (and religiously unbiased) as you can get. 2) I don't know why you think that a credible source "would have" to be drawn from a "mainstream reformed" source. We would not require Reformed Christians to prove their Christianity by citing the opinions of Pentecostal theologians, so why would we put Pentecostalism in that position?
Re: "you are picking sources that are clearly in agreement with you view . . . and ignoring what I would argue to be the majority that are not"-- I haven't seen one source you provided that clearly states that "All classical Pentecostals are outside of Protestantism." Criticisms of Pentecostalism is not the same thing as a denial that Pentecostals are Protestants.
Re: "This would honestly grief me if it was true, I'm glad it is not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism . . ."-- Protestantism includes Pentecostals as a denominational family under the Protestant umbrella, so I am not sure what directing us there was supposed to prove. In any event, under Wikipedia's own rules (see Wikipedia: No original research), "Wikipedia articles may not be used as tertiary sources in other Wikipedia articles."
Re: "are you saying their are a subset that do not meet the five solae, but my question is do the "core" set meet them?"-- Oneness Pentecostals are a small subset of classical Pentecostalism. They are non-Trinitarian, so most people would place them outside of Protestantism. As to whether the "core" of Pentecostals adhere to the five solae, I would say they do. Ltwin (talk) 22:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Technically, Pentecostals aren't Protestants because they weren't part of the Reformation - so they have/had nothing to protest against -- unless you want to say that Oneness Pentecostals protested against Trinitarianism -- but then they would say that Oneness doctrine is Apostolic (meaning it was how the original apostles believed). --Musdan77 (talk) 21:29, 17 August 2015 (UTC)