Talk:Persepolis (comics)

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Graphic novel?[edit]

Can you really call Persepolis a graphic novel? I know that's what it's categorized as in bookstores, but it's really more of a graphic memoir. IMFromKathlene 05:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not a graphic novel. I'm renaming it to reflect that. Snoutwood 00:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, graphic novel, as our article makes clear, is a term which doesn't denote fiction and as such this page shouldn't really have been moved on that basis. The work is typically referred to as a graphic novel. Hiding Talk 20:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I would disagree that the term "graphic novel" doesn't imply fiction, and I wouldn't say that our article (on which I didn't find a source for that claim, but I could have missed it) isn't a good source do corroborate that. Now, I don't have any material apart from my own personal, totally non-RS experience in comics to say that it should be "comic" instead, so I can't really base the move on anything other than that and personal preference. Thus, feel free to move it back if you strongly disagree, but I certainly wouldn't call it that myself. This is an issue that I've seen up a couple of times, and though I really should seriously investigate it I haven't had the time lately to dig into the subject. Snoutwood 00:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Time magazine states "Graphic novel" is a vague moniker that gets applied to any extended form of comics, including non-fiction and short story collections. [1]. Paul Gravett states "The term novel can make people expect the sort of format, serious intent, and weighty heft of traditional literature, as if a graphic novel must be the visual equivalent of "an extended, fictional work". True, some individual graphic novels can run to hundreds of pages, while others stretch to thousands across multiple volumes - but many are much shorter, or consist of collections of short stories, and they can come in all shapes, square, oblong, from miniscule to gigantic. Even more importantly, a great many are definitely not fictional at all but belong in the categories of non-fiction - history, biography, reportage, documentary, or educational." Gravett, Paul (2005). Graphic Novels: Stories To Change Your Life (1st ed. ed.). Aurum Press Limited. ISBN 1-84513-068-5.  page 8. Gravett makes usage of the term "graphic-novel biography" in "Hip Hip Herge!" The Independent on Sunday (London); Dec 10, 2006; Paul Gravett; p. 35, 'The Evening Standard describes Pyongyang [2] as graphic novel in its review, "TRAVEL" Evening Standard (London); Dec 12, 2006; SIOBHAN MURPHY; p. 28, The Times note the confusion thus: "Some genre names seem particularly troublesome. We here in Books have a particular fondness for what are sometimes called comic books, sometimes called graphic novels, and never, it seems to us, called anything really satisfactory. How can something be a graphic "novel" if it happens to be a memoir?" 'Isn't any really good book a thriller?' The Times (London); Dec 9, 2006; Erica Wagner; p. 2, Craig Raine writes "Marjane Satrapi's wonderful Persepolis, her account in graphic-novel form" in The Guardian, Nov 25, 2006; p. 6. I can go on, The Times notes the "Iranian storyteller discusses Persepolis, her autobiographical graphic novel" Nov 11, 2006; p. 9, The New York Times describes the work as "Marjane Satrapi's graphic novel" December 19, 2004, and the publisher of the work itself lists it in its graphic novel section[3].
I hope that is enough to convince you to amend the article, I would hope there are enough citations there describing the work as a graphic novel to allow the text to reflect that. I don't have a research background either, I assume that is what RS means. I'd also note the current form of the article is wrong, the work should be described as in the comics form rather than as a comic if we ignore the citations above and not describe it either as a graphic novel or published as a graphic novel. Appreciate your further thoughts on the issue. Hiding Talk 11:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Nice research. Even so, I prefer the term "graphic memoir" for Persepolis. While the term "graphic novel" is more common and conveys much of the meaning that I would want it to when describing Persepolis, it does not go far enough.
Also, there is evidence that the term "graphic memoir" is more appropriate. In the June 18, 2006 New York Times Book Review[4]] of Alison Bechdel's Fun Home, Sean Wilsey uses the term "graphic memoir" in the first sentence and comments later on that "It's odd that this memoir, a work of meticulous personal reportage, is referred to as a 'graphic novel' in the accompanying letter from its publisher — though I was relieved to discover that I'm not the only one in need of a trip to the dictionary."[5]
Dkreisst 08:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Good article, but applying the term to this work without a direct quote is original research. Hiding Talk 15:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
"A brilliant and unusual graphic memoir. . . . [Told] in a guileless voice . . . accompanied by a series of black-and-white drawings that dramatically illustrate how a repressive regime deforms ordinary lives." -–Vogue
It is just one quote, probably not enough to convince supporters of calling Persepolis a graphic novel, but a start. I need help finding the source.
Dkreisst 07:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, my news archive doesn't include Vogue. I'm guessing that's from the Amazon site? And I'd state, I'm not bothered if we also refer to it as a graphic memoir, but the publication format the work takes is typically referred to as a "graphic novel". I think almost everyone is aware it is a bad term and doesn't suit works such as this, but it's the term used. Look at the term comics, a phrase initially used to describe comical strips, now used to apply to superhero stories. Maybe we can work some sort of compromise? Perhaps we can introduce the graphic memoir term later in the article in addition to the term graphic novel? Hiding Talk 21:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I saw the quote in an ad in the New Yorker, it was referenced as from Vogue, but an internet search couldn't get me a Vogue book reviews. Right now I don't even have the issue number of the magazine.
I would definitetly agree to the compromise mentioned. Though I should mention that my issue is with the name "graphic novel" being used in general to describe memoirs. You (Hiding) seem to have a more thorough understanding of comic history than I do and your argument about the proper usage of novel vs. memoir, to me, still seems valid. Dkreisst 06:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Well I guess if you want to shape the article how you want it, and we can take it from there, do you reckon that's the best way forwards? Hiding Talk 21:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Compromise[edit]

How about: "Persepolis is a French-language autobiography, written in graphic novel format, by Marjane Satrapi that..." It removes the lable of "graphic novel," but retains the term for reference. And, altogether, is a little bit awkward.Dkreisst 19:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The current intro is fine. --Knulclunk 01:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
As stated above, my issue with the current intro is inclusion of the term "graphic novel." Please read the above discussion, if you have not already, and be specific about what you think is fine about the intro and list the reasons that relate to that decision. Dkreisst 06:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I have read the above discussion and feel that Hiding's arguments and research is solid. The term graphic novel does not diminish the autobiographical nature of the Persepolis story. Graphic novel is a format, meaning "a long comic book story intended for adults". I see that Maus is appropriately referred to as a graphic novel as well. The term "graphic memoir" does not mean anything, unless we go through the convoluted definition Sean Wilsey uses to make the point in his article. --Knulclunk 16:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Knulcluck, I agree that Hiding's research is solid I can't argue that the term graphic novel doesn't apply to nonfiction. I don't believe that it should however, as you have probably picked up. I guess that I should have brought this up at the Talk:graphic novel page. I hope both you and Hiding contribute to that conversation if I find time to bring it up. Dkreisst 01:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Author's preference[edit]

I just attended a personal appearance by Marjane Satrapi, and she stated a personal preference for "comic book" as the term for her work, as opposed to "graphic novel". She regards "graphic novel" as a term for comic books invented by marketing people for adults who are embarrassed to buy comic books. She also prefers "comic book" because she wants her work to be perceived as popular art, as opposed to stuffy Serious Literature.

She also stated that it's not strictly autobiographical. Although it's based heavily on her personal experiences, the details are not presented with strict accuracy. Sometimes the details differ because she just didn't remember the exact wording of conversations (which is fair in non-fiction, if disclosed), but sometimes she knowingly changed details for dramatic purposes.

For example, during the Iran-Iraq War, a neighbor she cared about was killed by a bombing. In the film (and I think the comic too), it happened when she was 13, but in real life it happened when she was 18. She changed the detail because a "five years later" transition would have disrupted the flow of the story. She implied that she made numerous similar changes, but that was the only one she cited.

So, rather than calling it "autobiographical", it would be more accurate to call it a work of "fictionalized autobiography", or maybe a "fictionalized memoir". She didn't state a preference on that point, but her discussion of the fictionalized aspect does suggest that she wants it clearly known that the story isn't strictly accurate on the details. —- Steve Schonberger (talk) 11:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tricky thing is this is about what we can prove. If she said it at a personal appearance then she must have said it elsewhere and if so we can source it. Otherwise it could be tricky adding it. (Emperor (talk) 13:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC))

WikiProject Afhganistan?[edit]

Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Knulclunk (talkcontribs) 21:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC). I removed the Afghanistan Project. Feel free to replace it if I made an error. --Knulclunk 00:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Film[edit]

Looks like we might need Persepolis (film) as it is getting some heat already. It is due to screen at Cannes but the Iranian government are already launching protests. [6] (Emperor 20:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

As I had the resources to hand I though I might as well start it. (Emperor 00:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I am adding an article by an Iranian émigré, Marjane Satrapi and her veiled Bridget Jones. Although it is in French, the article is important as it suggests — with considerable evidence — that Marjane Satrapi is not a real opponent to the régime in Tehran and, indeed, that the mullahs' opposition to the movie of her graphic novel/memoir was feigned.

References[edit]

The first reference (pointing to an article on metimes.com) just redirects to that site's front page now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.36.137.77 (talk) 02:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Big Problem with Persepolis 2 Summary[edit]

Really, really big problem with that. It only describes two sections when there is actually around 11, similar to the first book. I'm not very good with summaries, but will someone take care of this. And soon.(71.172.98.223 (talk) 22:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC))

summary incomplete[edit]

summary of perseoplis only goes though chapter 10 and skips half the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yogurtshwartz (talkcontribs) 02:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Persepolis-books1and2-covers.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion[edit]

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Outline[edit]

Up for review Your instructor has asked me to look at the outlines for changes that you plan to make to this article. It appears that you have yet to create an outline on this talk page, so it's not possible for me to provide feedback. Please bear in mind that I will be happy to help you, but I can't do that if you don't make any effort yourself. Pacing yourself is key to this assignment and since semester is mostly over, you really need to ensure that you're keeping up with project. —Justin (koavf)TCM☯ 05:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Graphic novel or comic?[edit]

I believe persepolis is a graphic novel rather than a comic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gautham.gg (talkcontribs) 02:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

sample?[edit]

It's a graphic novel. Wouldn't it be appropriate to show one or two panels as examples of the style? This would fall under fair use, no?--345Kai (talk) 01:43, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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I am considering splitting this page into two – one for Persepolis and one for Persepolis 2: The Story of a Return, as the Plot Summary and Character List sections are extremely long. Does this seem to make sense? 141.161.133.178 (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Plan to Edit Article[edit]

We intend to add specific censorship cases to the reception section of the article, in addition to more information on public reception, including overall popularity, of the book. We are still considering condensing the summary section, or splitting Persepolis and Persepolis 2: The Story of a Return into two separate pages. We are looking into the background to make sure it is thorough and that the language is precise. Finally, we intend to make copy-edits throughout the article.

Bibliography: Cavna, Michael. 'Persepolis,' 'Saga' and 'Drama' among 'most Challenged' Books in U.S. Libraries. Washington: WP Company LLC d/b/a The Washington Post, 2015. ProQuest. Web. 16 Nov. 2017. Costantino, Manuela. "Marji: Popular Commix Heroine Breathing Life into the Writing of History." Canadian Review of American Studies/Revue Canadienne d'études Américaines 38 (2008): 429-47. Literature Resource Center; Gale. Web. Crowe, Emily. "Satrapi to Discuss “Graphic Freedom”." Chips: Luther College (Decorah, IA)Oct 16 2014. Web. LAUREN FITZPATRICK, and Education Reporter . "CPS denies it banned book." Mar 16 2013. Web. "Libraries and Schools." Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom 62.3 (2013): 103-4. Web. Nabizadeh, Golnar. "Vision and Precarity in Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis." Women's Studies Quarterly 44.1 (2016): 152. Web. Satrapi, Marjane. "Why I Wrote Persepolis." Writing 26.3 (2003): 9. Web. "Schools." Newsletter on Intellectual Freedom 63.6 (2014): 171-2. Web. Vtl6 (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Sshekarchi's proposed edits as of 4/11[edit]

Persepolis (comics) plans for user sshekarchi as of 4/11.

-After reviewing talk page- there definitely needs to be some edits to the summary of the book, many are arguing that it is incomplete

-I think the film section needs to be lengthened- I've watched it so I know I can contribute to this. I see that there is a new film page for itself, but it still needs work. I added that Satrapi herself co-directed the film, a significant fact that was missing.

-At the top of the article, wikipedia itself expresses concern over the length of many parts of the summary, I feel as though i could help in maybe shortening or summarizing this further.

-I added a genre/style section preemptively and wrote a few sentences- I plan on working on this more.

-I want to add more references throughout the article, I think it lacks citations.

-remove the word “even” from the film section - possible bias

-add “graphic novel” and “iranian revolution” to see-also section


- I want to switch the sentences in the lead and the publication history sections regarding languages. The one in the lead goes too into depth- it will be more appropriate in the specific section about publication.

-Quotes like this are found in the same article that might be beneficial to add to the summary when it is reworked: "Persepolis provides readers with a variety of characters who were all affected by war and revolution differently, each providing their own perspective on the nature of freedom and ultimately providing us with a more accurate account of the event."

-Background section: add Satrapi's quote about her intended audience: "Using a graphic novel like Persepolis in the classroom can enable students to acquire the necessary critical literacy skills that aid them in the important tasks of reading the word and the world (Freire & Macedo, 1987). If students develop their critical thinking and reading abilities, they will be far readier to deal with the world they face and to have a positive impact on that world and on its prospects for peace" from the GRAPHIC ETHICS: THEORIZING THE FACE IN MARJANE SATRAPI'S PERSEPOLIS article.

-Change article title from comics to graphic novel, maybe explain it in genre/style section

-Change "graphic autobiography" to "graphic novel based on her life" in the genre section and where else it is featured.

quotes from the article "Critical Encounters in a Middle School English Language Arts Classroom: Using Graphic Novels to Teach Critical Thinking & Reading for Peace Education" on ProQuest. It has good quotes regarding the benefits of teaching graphic novels in the classroom, like "The graphic novel is a relatively new concept that is highly promising for engaging secondary school students in literacy and literary studies. It is an inviting resource for them because its multilayered, nonlinear structure format allows students to access the text in various ways beyond what the traditional linear format of print texts can offer.....Using a graphic novel like Persepolis in the classroom can enable students to acquire the necessary critical literacy skills that aid them in the important tasks of reading the word and the world (Freire & Macedo, 1987). If students develop their critical thinking and reading abilities, they will be far readier to deal with the world they face and to have a positive impact on that world and on its prospects for peace."


-Shorten the summary/character section Shorten Uncle Anoosh's description to as follows:

Uncle Anoosh is Marjane's father's brother. At 18, he joined his paternal uncle Fereydoon (Marjane's paternal grandfather's brother) who had linkage to Iranian Azerbaijan, proclaiming independence from Shah's Iran. In response to the Shah's regime, Anoosh fled Iran to the Soviet Union, went to Leningrad then settled in Moscow. He obtained a PhD in Marxism–Leninism, married a Russian woman, and had two daughters before getting divorced. In 1970 he returned to Iran in disguise where he got arrested and spent nine years in prison. He was let out due to the shah’s overthrow and Marjane met him for the first time- she saw him as a hero, they develop a close relationship and is eventually executed by the new Islamic revolutionary authorities.

-exclude minor characters/ or at least extremely shorten their descriptions

-add some text boxes from the novel itself : below are possibilities

“The regime had understood that one person leaving her house while asking herself:

Are my trousers long enough?

Is my veil in place?

Can my make-up be seen?

Are they going to whip me?

No longer asks herself:

Where is my freedom of thought?

Where is my freedom of speech?

My life, is it liveable?

What's going on in the political prisons?”

“I had learned that you should always shout louder than your aggressor.”

Sshekarchi (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2018 (UTC)sshekarchi

Manuelaf99's Proposed Edits[edit]

Publication History: https://www.mlajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1632/pmla.2017.132.3.558 Edit appearance and add some information 1st appeared in the US in 2 volumes (2003 and 2004) and published by Pantheon Books Original publication was in France, there were 4 volumes (2000-2003) French vs. US version Add more updated information

Character List: I would like to condense the character list and add only primary characters rather than all of the minor characters that are included now

Film Section: I want to add one or two sentences in this section about the author’s input in directing the film version

Summary: After having read the talk page as well as a few articles summarizing the novel, I think the summary section should be condensed to highlight certain areas rather than the format now that briefly describes every single section but not in depth.

Genre/Style Section: I think this page is missing a complete genre/style section The fact that it is a comic is extremely important because it is still able to portray a specific message, so I think I can add to the section on this page to include the significance of the genre https://search.proquest.com/news/docview/404932988/B8C43EE060D44AC1PQ/5?accountid=11091 - discusses graphic novel genre https://search.proquest.com/news/docview/1790692619/B8C43EE060D44AC1PQ/14?accountid=11091

Background Section: Add more information about Strapi herself https://www.mlajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1632/pmla.2017.132.3.558

→ Add more links to the references section to help readers see where the information is coming from - right now there are only four citations → In the lead section, add a topic sentence to the paragraph talking about publication: a bit choppy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manuelaf99 (talkcontribs) 14:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)