Talk:Persian Gulf/Archive 4

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Not just a naming dispute

In 1977, the third UN Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names (UNCSGN) adopted resolution III/20 entitled "Names of Features beyond a Single Sovereignty". The resolution recommended:

 "when countries sharing a given geographical feature do not agree on a common name, it should be a general rule of 
 cartography that the name used by each of the countries concerned will be accepted. A policy of accepting only one or some 
  of such names while excluding the rest would be inconsistent as well as inexpedient in practice."

A map from 1667, depicting both the Red Sea(Mer Rouge) and the Arabian Gulf(Sein Arabique)

Why can't we be direct and clear about this and just admit its not just a naming dispute. The Iranians want to show to the world that this gulf is under their control; one way of doing that is calling it Persian Gulf. I just hope non-Iranians editors will join in this discussion, since they are the ONLY key to a NPOV article regarding this dispute. CheersJidan 02:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Update: I forgot to comment on the map above. The map above was made by Claude Jollain in the Year 1667. It depicts both the Red Sea(Mer Rouge) and the Arabian Gulf(Sein Arabique).This shows

  • 1)Recognization of the europeans of the name Arabian Gulf
  • 2)Its not an ancient name of the Red See, as some have said. Jidan 03:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the "evil Iranians and Zionists" are to blame.Azerbaijani 02:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is the relavent text with the map. Note I already brought one form of deceit from the arabian Gulf website. Again Meractor did not write Sinus Arabicus in his map. Now you are persuming Hondius did based on a link. But I have the text scanner by Hondius from the same alleged source here [1]. Note it is clearly called Persian Bay. Every single atlas that has been published has a relevant text. Can you guys show any text whatsoever that has mentioned Arabian Gulf. Note if Hondius calls it Persian Bay in his text then either Sinus Arabic is forgery or a mistake or refers to the Shatt al-Arab, or Arabian Sea or even Red Sea (but misplaced due to printing) or even the name of another river. As per the name, once you guys calling Plaestine by Israel then we can settle this issue as well. Do a google search for sinus Arabicus and you will not see one textual evidence referring to Persian Gulf. Also the UN has officially recognized it as Persian Gulf as that is what it uses in all of its documents. And relavent reliables books have said the Arabs have adopted the name Arabian Gulf as political stance, not historic stance as there is no support historically in any Arabic text for such a name. And so far there has not been brought one textual evidence with any of these so called maps whose authenticity is disputed. I am waiting for actual textual evidence that goes along with any of these maps. Note also: [Note also [2]. The word used here is also sea (sein). That is why the map is not Arabian Gulf and as all texts say, Arabian Gulf is forgery of 1950-1960 Arab nationalism. From the day of Prophet Muhammad til the era of ultra-racist arab nationalism, not a single arab has called the Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf. --alidoostzadeh 02:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

And here another old map from an antique book depicting the name of this water body as Arabian Gulf(Sinus Arabicus).

Arabian Gulf(Hondius).jpg

Can please sombody put these two maps back in the article! It continuesly being removed by ultra-nationlist. Jidan 01:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This is supposedly Hondius's map but he refers to the Persian Gulf as Persian Bay. Hondius's atlas has full textual context. So far you have failed to bring one evidence that any of these maps (wether forgery or not) are not referring to Arabian Sea or Shatt ol Arab or some other parts of the body. Without any textual evidence, there is nothing to talk about since we have already brou

ght several books that say the name change was a product of the last century. And there is no Arabic sources that has mentioned it as Arabian Gulf prior to the last century neither. Here is a good run down of Arabic sources on the issue: [3]. --alidoostzadeh 04:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Its written black in white over the whole disputed water body Arabicus Sinus, where sinus is latin for gulf or bay. I have found academic websites containing dozens of antique maps naming this water body arabian gulf by different authors.I will also check the library for antique maps. I will collect all these maps and post them in this article and in the naming dispute article. I will also translate articles in arabic written by professors, which talk about the historical facts of calling this gulf the arabian gulf, since in english there isn't any. Then I am going to open an RfC and arbitration to pull neutral users to this. I just don't have the time right now, but I will later. The removing of those maps from the article is the trigger... Jidan 02:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many maps you put. I have the text from Hondius with the map, which calls the Persian Gulf as Persian Bay. There is also enough academic reference to show the name change was a product of the last century. None of the recent maps brought so far have provided any textual evidence and sinus in lain means sea, as well canal. So it could easily show the Arabian Sea which is connected to the Persian Gulf. Again note Hondius's text[4] whose map you have displayed above. Note the page numbers as well. In the text it is persian Bay. Mercator has called the sinus Arabicus as red sea as shown in the other maps. So whereas you can bring the map by Hondius, in the text he calls it Persian Bay and that settles the issue and not your interpretation of the map. Thus Sinus Arabicus has no textual backing. So until you can provide one text, none of these maps can help your cause as they can reference Arabian Sea, Shatt ol Arab, Red Sea, be a mistake/forgery and etc. And indeed the text from Hondius where the above map is taken shows that Hondius clearly calls the Persian Gulf as Persian Bay. --alidoostzadeh 02:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
And note I was right, check out this link: need for subterfuge. There were number ciphers, symbols described, not as a written description, but in the translation of the word for the symbol. The cartographers had a more difficult time. They had to make an extremely accurate map, so that those fleeing could escape safely, but they could not give the same information to those persecuting them. On this particular map of Claudius Ptolemy, the land called Arabia Felix was very visible with a small cordiform projection inserted near the Oman Peninsula. But as usual, the Red Sea area, so faithfully colored in so many earlier maps,4 (here in the area where the red and white islands are located) was now in a new location, south of the Arabian Sea or Sinus Arabicus.. So as the Hondius map with the text shows, the text clearly refers to the Persian Gulf as Persian Bay. Sinus Arabicus is the Arabian Sea and sometimes it is referred to as the red sea. [5] --alidoostzadeh 03:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Arab nationalists have started using fake maps such as those brought forward by Jidan, however these do not refer to any Gulf by the name they try to use it as. I am rather glad that no neutral Academic would accept such disgraceful attempt to change history --Rayis 12:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Some could be fake, but the fact is that none of them reference the Persian Gulf. They either reference Arabian Sea, Shatt ol Arab or the river following from Arabia to the Persian Gulf. That is why there is no textual evidence whereas all of the evidences require textual evidence. [6]. 1) there has been brought already ample number of western texts which show the name change was from the last century in Arab countries. 2) there is not even one evidence even from Arab sources which calls it Arabian Gulf from the last century. 3) There are maps that have connected the Gulf of Oman to the Persian sea and use one name for both. In the end we saw how Arab nationalists feel about Iranians when genocidal Saddam breathed his last words of hatred against Iranians. --alidoostzadeh 02:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I was turning the pages scanned in this website [7]. All pages from 854 to 859 were available except page 857. Also, all pages were double-sided scanned except page 856. This made me think, why the hell would page 857 be missing!!!! At first I assumed good faith, i.e. it must be a blank page or something, then I realized that page 857, is actually... the Horror page for most Iranian nationlists, it is the page showing a map with this gulf being named Arabian Gulf(Sinus Arabicus): Arabian Gulf(Hondius).jpg

This is a very good example of how far iranian nationlists are ready to go, hidding and distorting histrorical facts, for their own agenda. Jidan 01:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

 : First of all, don't label other editors, that's a violation of WP:NPA and WP:AGF. The issue of the map was alerady addressed and you're avoiding the point that Hondius clearly uses Persian Sea or Persian Gulf throughout the same book that this map is supposdly coming from. That just doesn't make any sense, and directly puts into question the authenticity of this map. As pointed out already, there is no textual evidence here, whereas all of the evidences require textual evidence. --Mardavich 02:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Mardavich. If I were Jidan I would stop labeling. Acutally it is he that is distorting historical facts. I already said look at the textual evidence besides the map. The map was already there and I thought Jidan would actually understand that the map is from the text. Thus it is Jidan who is actually doing the distortion by not providing the users with the relavent text and only providing the map. The text does not support the conclusion that Jidan is trying to derive from the map. That is the pan-arabistic nationalistic manipulation of historic fact where they do not mention the text. There is no Arabian Gulf in the text. Sinus Arabicus could be a river from Qatif area, Arabian sea, Shatt ol Arab or anything else. But it isn't the Persian Gulf since the text clearly has referred to it as the Persian Bay and that is the end of the story. And that is what that counts since the text clarifies it. Furthermore we have enough evidence from main stream Western sources that the distortion was a recent phenomenon. Besides that, there is not a single Arab source as well. --alidoostzadeh 03:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

aha..i see, you are the owner of this website [8] and the one who scaned the pages. Well, then please explain to me the following: you botherd to go all the way to the library, then you bothered to find the book, and then when its time to scan it, you scanned all pages between 854 to 859, except page 857...why? My explantion is that you are trying to hide it, if not, then please post it again in this website, and this time with page 857. Hondras is not the only cartographer who used "arabian gulf" in his maps. You have two maps above by two different cartographers, and here are more [9]. You say although the map shows arabian gulf, in text he says "persian bay". Can you please tell me which page and line? Jidan 05:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Persian bay" is first mentioned on line 10th of page 855. --Mardavich 05:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Nope I didn't scan the page and also the map goes with the textual evidence thus since the map was available, the owner of that site probably decites to put the textual evidence up and focus on that aspect. I think the actual forgery is done by those who do not bring the textual evidence like the mentioned site you named. As per that site (Arabian Gulf) that you brought: 1)If you go under collection and then view a map and then click on map index. Click on the one from 1740(Jacques Nicholas Bellin) Then do a zoom. On the legend on the bottom left corner of the image it clearly says on the text Et Golfe de Perse. So this map is out of the picture. And just these two examples Hondius (the site does not mention that the texts say Persian Bay) and this 1740 map is enough to discredit the site. Indeed the site lacks a single textual evidence. This is actually just pure forgery since all these maps come with texts like the Hondius text. So the relavent textual evidence is the most important. Here are two quotes of Hondius: The kingdome of Persia is situtate between the Turkish empite, the Tartarians, the Zaghatheans, the Kingdom of cambala, and the between the Hircarnian or Caspian sea, and the Persian Bay(pg 855). Babylon is situate betweene the Persian bay and Mesopotamia, and on the right and left it is enclosed with the deserts of Susia and Arabia,...(pg 858). Note there are maps that mention the Oman sea as Persian Sea and some maps can bring Arabian sea to the Persian Gulf. Note also Zereshk has brought Mercator's original map (Hondius just published Mercator's map) where Mercator calls it Persian Gulf.[10] It is kind of illogical to think Hondius thought of anything else, or else he would not mention it as Persian Bay explicity in his text. Note the evidence I brought also from map site that says: But as usual, the Red Sea area, so faithfully colored in so many earlier maps,4 (here in the area where the red and white islands are located) was now in a new location, south of the Arabian Sea or Sinus Arabicus.’’ [11] --alidoostzadeh 06:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

As usual, your answers are always large and informative, but please number them, so that I can answer them without confusion. You put forward 3 points and my answers are (according to the order you put them):

  • 1) Jodocus Hondius used Sinus Arabicus(Arabian Gulf) even in his text. The pages you have scanned are in english, but Hondius wrote all his maps and books in Latin. Also,Hondius died in 1612, while this book was published, as seen in the first page, in 1635. Everything was translated to english from Latin, except his map, which as you see above, is still in latin. If you looked at Hondus original book in latin, we will find "Sinus Arabicus"(arabian gulf) as depicted in his un-translated map.
  • 2)Regarding this site [12], the problem is that we have multiple maps, with different cartographers calling this water body "Sinus Arabicus", so it cant be a mistake. If there was only one cartographer and one or few maps, then we could say it may have been a mistake.

The problem is, that you ali, and most iranians, simply cann't accept the fact, that this gulf did have many names. Your writtings imply that this gulf was called "persian gulf" since the creation of this planet, and anybody who doesn't agrees with you, you label him an arab nationlist. For example, among the names this gulf was known in the last 200 years are:

  • Gulf of El Qatif (after, Qatif), an impotant port
  • Gulf of Basra (after Basra), an impotant port, and was used by islamic geographers since the 9th century such as Masudi.The ottomans and Sinbad the Sailor, also called it gulf of Basra :-)
  • Gulf of Oman, omani sailors where dominant in this gulf
  • Arabian Gulf,
  • Persian Gulf

If you search this website, you will find those maps (there are 29 maps listed there). Among the famous european cartographers who call this waterbody the arabian gulf are Gerardus Mercator, Jodocus Hondius, John Speed, Petrus Bertius, Claude Jollian, Peter van Den keere, and Johannes Janssonius. This is all verfiable[13]. You can go to any library or ask any profeessor if you think they are fake. Infact, if you still insist that they are forgery, as a comprimise we can email more than one neutral professor in universtiy and ask them if they are forgery. Salam...Jidan 21:45, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but telling people to ask their professors is not the correct way of verifying information on Wikipedia. The maps on that website are fake I am afraid. --Rayis 22:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
You are wrong and now you are starting to ASSUME as you have not seen the Latin and are making wild conjectures. The Latin if it exists does not say Sinus Arabicus since the Old English is from 1642 and is word by word translation of Hondius. Because the Hondius Atlas book is scanned from the original English from a website that has old atlas and it is in Old English. I have the cover page as well. That is why as you can see it is in Old English. The problem you can not fathom is that the Western sources have explicity said the name was recent falsification. You can not find Arabic source either.. I already discredited the Arabian Gulf site by these two examples. One example clearly calls it Golfe De Persian and yet the owner claims it as Arabian Gulf. Also Hondius uses Persian Bay. Also the maps have watermark. And finally the owner does not provide one line of textual evidence with any of his maps besides being discredited by my two examples. Right now you lack textual evidence and if you are making claims in Latin, then bring it forth. Note One of the Maps say Gulf of El Qatif to Sinus Arabian (Arabian Sea) very clearly from that same site.(Peter van den Keere 1609). Thus Sinus Arabicus is the Arabian Sea. I already posses enough Western and Arabian source that neutral that mention the name change took place in the Arabian countries in the last century. Without even a single textual evidence there is really nothing t argue against the sources. Whereas I just brought another western source that calls the Sinus Arabicus as Arabian Sea. Also Hondius uses Mercator's Map which we already have seen (thanks to Zereshk). And the Hondius text clearly says Persian Bay. --alidoostzadeh 01:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I can clearly see what both of you are trying to say! Ali needs to show explicit documentation and one single map by Jida is also not "documentation". Furthermore, using maps from the website Arabian Gulf Maps is not wise either since the owner of the website is an Arab. Maps can be doctored - I'm not saying that the maps in the above mentioned website are doctored, but we don't know for sure!

Historical, Geographical and Legal Validity of the Name: PERSIAN GULF

Historical, Geographical and Legal Validity of the Name: PERSIAN GULF

Geography, as the most ancient human knowledge is an applied science which has different aspects. It studies the reciprocal relation of man and nature and provides the results to the users in the form of documents in writing, books and maps. The names of features and phenomena including natural or man made ones have been considered by geographers for a long time, therefore similar features are distinguished by it. The name of a feature can not be observed on the land like the feature itself. Thus, by mentioning the case on maps, Atlases, and books, it will be protected during different eras as a part of historical, cultural identity and saved as mans heritage. For the same reason, any change, destruction, or alteration of the names registered in historical deeds and maps is like the destruction of ancient works and is considered as an improper action. Therefore, the names of geographical features profiting from a unique historical identity, should not be utilized as political instruments in reaching a political, tribal, and racial objective, or in any clash with national interests and other's values. This paper provides a short study of the historical background of the name PERSIAN GULF so that it might cast light on realities.

Persian Gulf's name in UN: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 05:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Geographical Specifications of PERSIAN GULF

Geographical Specifications of PERSIAN GULF The Persian Gulf is located in the southwest of the Asian Continent at 23 to 30 degrees northern latitude and 48 to 56 degrees longitude on the south side of the vast country of Iran, with a length of 1259 kilometer. Karoun, Zohreh, Jarrahi Mond, Dalki, Hendijan, Kol and Minab are the largest and the most watery rivers that flow into the PERSIAN GULF from the Iranian Plateau. The PERSIAN GULF is a projection of water from the Indian Ocean into a part of the Iranian Plateau. The whole northern part of it is covered by the Fars Province in Iran. T hus, if we were to presume that the sea did not have a name during history and those geographers and specialists were to select a name for this gulf, doubtlessly, they would find no better name than PERSIAN GULF, because Iran (PERSIA) is the largest country adjacent to this water body which possesses the longest coast. Besides, with a population of more than 70 million it is larger than any country located at the south margin of Fars.

Persian Gulf is every Iranian's Identity

Yes, The Persian Gulf is our history and every Iranian should save and protect this holy name.

The Persian Gulf's name shows Iran's power in this region.

The Persian gulf is not only a name, but also this holy name shows Iran's Sovereignty over the Tunbs & Abu Musâ Islands .

The most important areas in this region belongs to IRAN.

The most geopolitical regions and islands in this gulf belongs to great Iran.

The most important Islands such and Kish, Abu Musa, the Tumbs and Siri belongs to IRAN.

So this Gulf is named in history and UN as the PERSIAN GULF.

This name is Holy Name for Iran and all of IRANIAN.

IRANIAN want peace for all of the world but if any arab people want to change this holy name to the another name, they should know they will be enemy of Iran and Iranian and the Iranian have prompt action for them.

arab people and arabian governments should know that can not change this holy name by the oil money!!!!

arab people and arabian governments should understand this name is our identity and they can not buy this name and they should respect it and should be careful because they don't have any history in this region and they are trying to buy maps and names on historical maps by the money!!!! but they don't know the history and world's mind can not be bought by the money or oil!!!!

If they want to show their name in the world, they can help the palesitian people!!! by inviting them to the peace, because all the world's people know Israel is a historical land and historical country and arabs want to change it to a islamic country and if arabs had a unity of purpose they could help to their arab friends in palestin!!!! but they sholud know Israel is a country and they should respect it, so they should change their thought and they should change their policy.

For Example I can refer to read this article from World Press Organization:

Omission of 'Persian Gulf' Name Angers Iran correspondent December 28, 2006

French Education Minister Gilles de Robien (left) attended a ceremony in Abu Dhabi last month to inaugurate the Persian Gulf campus of the prestigious Paris-Sorbonne University. While there, de Robien announced that a group of French experts would arrive shortly to study the possibility of opening a branch of the Louvre museum. (Photo: STR / AFP-Getty Images)

France's celebrated art and antiquities museum, the Louvre, has deleted the word "Persian" from descriptions of the Persian Gulf in its map guides. It is an act against established United Nations guidelines, and can be viewed as a diplomatic gesture of frowning at Iran while winking at the Arab world.

Cultural discord has dominated Arab-Persian relations throughout history and one of the biggest recent debates has been over the naming of the Persian Gulf, which is essentially considered the geographical border between land of Persia (Iran) and much of the Arab world.

Although "Persian Gulf" has always been the official name for this strategic body of water, most Arab countries have hesitated to use it in recent decades and instead have invented the name "Arabian Gulf."

Now, with the rise of increasing international condemnation facing Iran due to its nuclear program, it seems that more and more Western countries have taken sides in an act which Iranian observers and journals regard as "manipulating Persian cultural and historical heritage."

In virtually every map printed before the 1960's and in most modern international treaties, documents and maps, this body of water is known by the name "Persian Gulf," a term whose historical existence can be traced back to the documents of pre-Christian Greek geographers, Strabo and Ptolemy.

By the 1960's with the rise of Arab nationalism (Pan-Arabism), some Arab countries, including the ones bordering the Persian Gulf, adopted the term "Arabian Gulf" to refer to the waterway.

Before Iran's revolution of 1979, which led to the establishment of an Islamic Republic, the name "Persian Gulf" still maintained its official credibility. However, after the political isolation of Iran in the post-revolution period and with the decreasing influence of Tehran on the political and economic priorities of the English-speaking Western World, including petroleum-related businesses, there has been an increasing acceptance of omitting "Persian" from the name on maps or even renaming it "Arabian Gulf."

The matter is widely criticized in Iran and according to the Iranian press, "hurts the hearts of tens of millions of Iranians who, aside from any political clashes and ambiguity, simply love their country."

The Louvre's decision to delete the word "Persian" comes amid intense negotiations aimed at exporting Europe's cultural crown to the heart of the Arab world.

For more than a year talks have been underway between Paris and Abu Dhabi to open a branch of the Louvre in the United Arab Emirates. Reportedly, the prestigious museum is set to receive $1 billion to put its elite cultural pieces on display at the branch.

In France, the negotiations have faced questions, such as from the French daily Libération, which queried whether the project was the "most novel and controversial deal in the history of French cultural politics." Many believe that the proposal is much more of a political step rather than a cultural fusion between the East and the West.

"My feeling is this is a project more determined by political than artistic considerations," Philippe Régnier, editor of the French Journal des Arts, told the British daily, the Guardian. "It is about France's presence in the region and its economic concerns. This isn't a project piloted by the museum or its curators, it has been taken over by the ministry of culture."

Apart from the recent negotiations, the Louvre has handsomely benefited from money donated by Arab fundraisers. The museum is expected to open an Islamic art wing in 2009 which has already received $20 million from Saudi billionaire Prince Walid bin Talal. It has also recently received a donation of around $7 million from Sabah Al Ahmad Al Sabah, the Emir of Kuwait, as reported by Agence France-Presse.

Omission of the word "Persian" in the Louvre's newly printed guide was swiftly followed by Tehran's official objection.

"We have recently become aware of this," said Iranian foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hossieni. "Certainly, our embassy will object to this and will pursue the case."

This is not the first time Iran has vehemently protested over the naming of the waterway separating Iran and the Arabian Peninsula. In 2004, Tehran firmly objected to the move by the National Geographic when it printed the words "Arabian Gulf" as an alternative name (in smaller type and in parentheses) for the Persian Gulf in its atlas.

Apart from the official objections made by the government, Iranian people worldwide protested the act by signing numerous petitions to remove the alternative name.

To further their campaign, Iranian Web users designed and launched a "Google bomb," which appears at the top of Google's search results for the term "Arabian Gulf." The Web page reads: "The gulf you are looking for is unavailable. No body of water by that name has ever existed. The correct name is Persian Gulf, which always has been, and will always remain, Persian."

The then-Iranian foreign minister, Kamal Kharazi, described it as a "victory for every Iranian" when National Geographic officially apologized and the offending phrase was removed.

The United Nations on many occasions has requested that only "Persian Gulf" be used as the official and standard geographical designation for the body of water. The United Nations Secretariat has issued two editorial directives, in 1994 and 1999, affirming the organization's position on the matter. The use of the name "Arabian Gulf" was described to be "faulty" by the eighth United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names, held in Berlin from Aug. 5 to Sept. 2, 2002.

The addendum to the United Nations' editorial directive further states that: "The full name 'Persian Gulf' should be used in every case instead of the shorter term 'Gulf,' including in repetitions of the term after its initial use in a text."

I can say to arab people dont try to change the country's name and region's name to palestin or arabian gulf, because these are historical name and they have legal validity in UN and they are named and are called Persian Gulf and Israel in the world and also in UN.


This is Persian Gulf , arab gulf does not exist

This is Persian Gulf , arab gulf does not exist

The gulf you are looking for is unavailable. No body of water by that name has ever existed. The correct name is Persian Gulf, which always has been, and will always remain, Persian.

The Persian Gulf (Persian: خليج فارس khalīj-e-Fārs; in arabic: الخليج الفارسي al-khalīj al-fārisī), in the southwest asian region, is an extension of the Gulf of Oman located between IRAN (PERSIA) and the other Persian Gulf's littoral states.

Arbitrarily changing an internationally recognized name, is not only unprofessional but also a hostile act, directed at an entire nation/civilization, not to mention denying historical as well as international facts.

Louvre Museum has been created to provide a professional accurate and picture to the people around the world who might not otherwise be able to obtain it from the other sources. The Louvre Museum should not take sides between interest groups unless it want to be involved in the political arena, which is neither wise nor professional, and if they still insist doing this, at least they should make it explicitly clear to their visitors that they are political players and not just a museum.

Historical, Geographical and Legal Validity of the Name:

"Arabian Gulf" does not exist in any part of the World.

"Arabian Gulf" does not exist in any part of the World.

"Persian Gulf" is an appropriate name for a gulf located in south of Iran, in Middle East.

Persian Culture is an ancient and historical one and nobody can deny it. Considering Persian Culture as ancient and historical culture is undeniable. So, never do replace the name of "Persian Gulf" with a new and improper title like "Arabian Gulf". —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Response to anon

Firstly, the name of the Persian Gulf is not "holy". There is nothing religious about it. Secondly, involving the issue of Iran's occupation of UAE islands or questioning the Palestinians' right to nationhood is designed to stir up nationalist sentiment. It has no place in this editorial issue.

The fact is that all the Arab states in the Gulf region refer to the Gulf as the Arabian Gulf, in both Arabic and English. That might hurt Iranian sensibilities. It may or may not be inaccurate. It may or may not be an act of Arab nationalism. The fact remains that some governments and peoples refer to it as the Arabian Gulf. This should be reflected in the article. I would not suggest renaming the article to Arabian Gulf, but simply pointing out the alternative name for the Gulf should be mentioned in the introductory paragraph.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 13:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Kind of agree. For example see Turkish coffee. Even though its name is by far Turkish coffee, alternate names in neighboring countries are also mentioned in the lead with a mention "depending on location". It would be simply academic to mention "(sometimes also referred to as the Arabian Gulf, depending on location)". Just my two cents :) Baristarim 11:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, this is not Turkish coffee. The name Arabian Gulf is already appropriately mentioned and discussed under the naming dispute section, undue weight should not be given to a name that's controversial, and not commonly used in English language or any other language outside of the Arab world. The issue was already discussed to death at Talk:Persian_Gulf#Protection. --Mardavich 11:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf is a registered name in UN

If you can please give me another alternative name on this regard from UN documents !!! The only name in UN is the Persian Gulf

Ahvaz is a Persian name not arabian name so can not be called alahvaz !!!

The important fact is:Iranian want peace for all the world's people

But Please respect to the old Persian history and also respect to the International rules.

1)arabs like to call Persian name to arabic language such az Ahvaz to alAhvaz!!!!, Mehregan to mehrejan !!!

2)arab people should learn Iran is a Persian country and if some our persian-arab are iving in south of Iran, they are Iranian and they believe that this is Persian Gulf.

3)renaming a point of the world to the another name, in the same time that UN is naming it in its original name is wasting the time, so this is better to respect to the International rules.

4)arabs should respect to the Persian Gulf's name because this is an historical name and they should proud of this HOLY NAME.

5)The Persian Gulf is used by European countries, USA ,Canada and also UN.

6)It be recommanded to arabs to have more study on history,so learn more about name and naming rules.

7)There is a question to arabs, Is this possible to renaming the Atlantic Ocean to the American Ocean???!!!! If so you can change it !!!!!

8) It is necessary to know that Iranian are living in Khoozestan province are Iranian, both of them Persian and arabs are Iranian and more that 71 milion people are living in Iran are Persian and this Holy name is regard to their long history on this area and also from political point of view this gulf is called as the Persian Gulf in UN official documents and Canadian documents and US government's documents and also European official documents.

for more information please view these websites:

Also you can search on the web about Persian Gulf for example in Google, Yahoo, ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

Please keep it down. Do not make this personal, seeing issues as us/them is not healthy for Wikipedia. This is not a forum and please sign your name using the four ~. Cheers! Baristarim 12:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
"arabs like to call Persian name to arabic language such az Ahvaz to alAhvaz". So what? The French call London Londres, the British call Cote d'Ivoire the Ivory Coast. No-one is accusing anyone else of being "unholy" or breaking international law.
If you have a problem with my user name, then complain to an admin.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with your Id, but it seems you have a big problem with the Persian gulf's name !!!! if so please read more and learn more. I can explain more for you in this regard for example I can rename your cities to another name or I can deny your identity, learn that Persian Gulf is our Identity, why you want to try to change this name? So What?!!!!

Anyway I explain the logic, history and International rules for yoy, you can learn it or not !!!! but the Persian Gulf's name is Persian Gulf and it will be remained Persian Gulf forever.

Read these recommended websites you will learn the facts about persian gulf.

I am not advocating a change in the name of the article or even claiming that one or the other names for the Gulf is right. I am saying that as Arabian Gulf is used officially in Arabic and English by the Arab states in the Gulf region as well as some non-Arabs, this should be mentioned in the first paragraph. There's very little point in filling up the talk page with links to all the sites that mention the Persian Gulf. I could respond by a whole load of links to references to the Arabian Gulf, such as the Arabian Gulf University in Bahrain. It really doesn't get anyone any further.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a simple Google search and saw that "Arabian Gulf" - wikipedia gets more than 1 million hits in English [14]. "Persian Gulf" - wikipedia gets 1,3 million [15]. And the addition makes clear that "it is also known as X in Y countries", so there doesn't seem anything wrong with adding it, particularly since there is a Brittanica reference that also uses that terminology as such. Nobody is stealing the Gulf, but it is also true that there has been such a dispute to the point that there nearly as many references to it as the "Arabian Gulf" as the "Persian Gulf". Just my two cents :) Is there a particular reason why it shouldn't be mentioned "aka X in Y" in the lead sentence? Baristarim 12:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Go back and read the history of the name and this discussion page and you'll see why. The name Arabian Gulf gets many hits because it's mentioned in many news articles discussing the controversy, that doesn't make it a legitimate alternative name. --Mardavich 13:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok then.. I was venturing into some dangerous waters anyways (no pun intended :)).. Baristarim 16:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I had a search on google and I saw that the Name of 
Persian Gulf the most wide usage in google, this is no need      
other  Apocryphal name is used by local smal countries 
and this is not legal.

also in United nation the Persian Gulf is used in more than 7000 times in official documents but Apocryphal name arabian gulf is used only in arab countries in their letter to UN in 27 times, this show arabs want to show Apocryphal name in their letters but the Persian Gulf is used more than 7000 times in official documents in UN.

Persian Gulf will be remained Persian Gulf ForeverThe Persian Gulf 09:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf does not need to any evidence, because it is clear that is Persian Gulf

I was viewing your chalenges, I'd say that no need to mention this is Persian Gulf.

Arbitrarily changing an internationally recognized name, is not only unprofessional but also a hostile act, directed at an entire nation/civilization, not to mention denying historical as well as international facts

Please consider that the Persian Gulf's name is the only registered name in UN .

No need to mention that it is not too hard to find the result of Persian gulf in Google just type " Persian Gulf".

I respect to your idea and I'd like to help you to find the only fact.

Thank you in advance for your kind consideration. 08:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The Persian Gulf University (PGU)

The Persian Gulf University is located in the coastal city of Bushehr.(Coast of the Persian Gulf)

It is a state university under the supervision of the Ministry of Science, Research and Technology. The Persian Gulf University was established in 1991. It started its educational work as a "technical & engineering school" with the two majors of mechanical and civil engineering.

It was originally under the management of the Shiraz University. Later on, after opening new academic departments in 1994 and and 1995, it was turned into "Bushehr University".

In 1996 Bushehr University was properly renamed "Persian Gulf University" because of its geographic location and closeness to the magnificent coasts of the Persian Gulf.

Today,the Persian Gulf University (PGU) consists of five faculties offering undergraduate courses leading to Bachelor's degree (B.A. or B.S.) in 20 disciplines, postgraduate courses leading to Master’s of Science in five specialties, and also one undergraduate course leading to higher diploma.

In line with the aforesaid regional, cultural and economic potentials, PGU is planning to open more fields of study leading to higher diploma, some 20 disciplines leading to B.A. or B.S.,13 specialties towards M.A. or M.S. and 4 specialties leading to PhD.

PGU's academic staff consists of almost 130 full-time members whose responsibilities are to teach, engage in research and direct the courses of study for over 4000 students in both day and evening sessions during two semesters in each academic year. PGU's Administration is directed by the Chancellor Prof. H. Tajik and the four Vice-Chancellors for: Academic Affairs (Dr. Mehranpour), Research (Dr. Fiouz), Students and Cultural Affairs(Dr. Diyanat), and Administrative and Financial Affairs (Dr. Mussavi).

Chancellor's Office: Tel: +98-(0)771-4545187 Fax: +98-(0)771-4545188

Address: Shahid Mahini Street, Bushehr 75168 IRAN-PERSIAN GULF 18:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf in UN documents and Google search.

Dear User: Baristarim,

I'd like to say the Persian Gulf's name is the only registered name in UN.

So Arbitrarily changing an internationally recognized name, is not only unprofessional but also a hostile act, directed at an entire nation/civilization, not to mention denying historical as well as international facts.

For my reasons you can read these web sites:

And also about the Persian Gulf's name in Google search:

I'd like to say if anyone type arabian gulf in google search he/her will be faced to the truth! ====> Arabian Gulf" does not exist in any part of the World. "Persian Gulf" is an appropriate name for a gulf located in south of Iran, in Middle East. Persian Culture is an ancient and historical one and nobody can deny it. Considering Persian Culture as ancient and historical culture is undeniable. So, never do replace the name of "Persian Gulf" with a new and improper title like "Arabian Gulf".

Thank you for taking the time. 19:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The wide use of the term "Arabian Gulf"

This sentance: "also known as Arabian Gulf in Arab countries" is always removed by Iranina editors. The reason givin by them is undo weight: [16], [17].

Well, how "undo weight" is this:

  • Its the offiicial name used by all 22 Arab countries including the 6 countries that lay on that gulf [18].
  • The U.S. Whitehouse uses it [24],
  • The USA embassies uses it [25], the USA congress uses it [26]. The US dept of state uses it [27]
  • The british Foreign & Commonwealth Office use it [28]

This is more than enough weight not to just include it at the introduction, but aslo to change the title to Persian/Arabian Gulf.The main reason why this term is totaly wiped off the introdcution is this [32] Jidan 19:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The UN does not use it. Those are articles provided by Arab countries within the UN. The UN cartography section is clear on the official name. [33]. As per US: As recognized by the United States Board on Geographic names, the name of the body of water that lies between Iran and the Arab states of the Gulf Cooperation Council is the Persian Gulf. For political reasons, Arabs often refer to it as the Arab or Arabian Gulf(The Persian Gulf at the Millennium: Essays in Politics, Economy, Security, and Religion edited by Gary G. Sick, Lawrence G. Potter, pg 8). I am really getting annoyed with chauvinistic behaviors of some pan-arab nationalists in the last 40 years attempting to change a historic name from more than 2000 years ago. A falsified name like the Arabian Gulf that has never been used in Arabic documents prior to 50 years ago has no historical legitimacy despite all the Arab Shaikh money poured into it. An attempt at changing the historical name of a body of water is an ugly act of historical distortion. I hope people trecognize the racist behavior of Arab countries in distorting a historical name and note the complete resprect for historical terminologies in these countries. I think the recent protests at the death of Saddam Hussein shows clearly the racist mentality that has grasped the Arab speaking countries and unfortunately academic scholarship in this day and age can easily be bought. --alidoostzadeh 02:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, don't label other editors as "Iranian" or anything else. That shows bad faith on your part, and this ethnically-biased and bad faith habit of yours, labeling all the editors who disagree with you as "Israelis and Iranians" has been previously brought up and discussed by several admins on the admins notice board [34]. Labeling opposing editors is not the way to conduct an honest debate and build en encyclopedia. As for your argument, a few selective links showcasing articles or books written by Arab journalists and correspondents do not constitute the basis for commonality to include Arabian Gulf at the introduction. The name is already mentioned and discussed at the appropriate section, the naming dispute. Anything more is giving undo weight to a name that's neither internationally recognized, nor commonly used in English, outside he Arab circles. --Mardavich 20:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

A)The fact that the Arab countries recognize the term is irrelevant. We are talking about international waters here, not local lakes or rivers. Nationalism and racism do not determine the names of bodies of waters. If everyone country was allowed to choose its own name for any geographic place, then there would be chaos.

B)Regarding Brittanica, British Common Wealth, and the BBC, all are British and it is a known fact that the term Arabian Gulf is British in origin and even to this day, Britain is one of the nations that advocates that name, due to its past interactions with Persia (Iran) during colonialism and present day, with deteriorating ties.

C) CNN does not use the term Arabian Gulf. In that article, it clearly says that the Arabian Gulf is another gulf with in the Persian Gulf, which is near to it. There are many gulfs in the Persian Gulf, including the Gulf of Bahrain, and others.

D) The UN sources you list are not UN documents, they are letters submitted to the UN by delegates, most, if not all of whom, are Arabs.

E) The USA does not use the term Arabian Gulf officially, and it has clarified that the term Persian Gulf may only be used within its documents. However, US military personnel in the Arab Persian Gulf countries due use the term Arabian Gulf, because the term Persian Gulf is either banned or the government of those countries asks that the term Arabian Gulf be used as one of its conditions.

F) Regarding your NASA link, again, the NASA experiment was conducted in the UAE with UAE personnel. It is known that the term Persian Gulf is illegal in the UAE.

G) The Amazon source cannot even be brought up as evidence, as it is just as useless as doing a Google search on Arabian Gulf and trying to use that as evidence.

H) Again, using a source regarding an Arab country.

So far, all you have been able to bring up are Arab sources or sources related to or in favor of Arab governments. The term Arabian Gulf is not only racist, but politically motivated. There is no historical background to the term Arabian Gulf, not even in Arab countries. There is already a section for this dispute, and the term Arabian Gulf is mentioned there.Azerbaijani 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

"Its the offiicial name used by all 22 Arab countries including the 6 countries that lay on that gulf" - what nonsense. Plus, that link doesn't say anything on this matter anyway. Some Arab states may refer to as that, but not officially and not collectively. --Rayis 20:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Sorry to butt in, but there seems to be more accusations (some of them weird) in what has just been said. Labelling all the British as some sort of imperial agents is also ethnically-biased IMO. Are you seriously labelling BBC as a some sort of an imperial agent? BBC is one of the most reliable sources out there + the same goes for Brittanica. I know the UN stance on this issue, but BBC is not crap either. "Regarding Brittanica, British Common Wealth, and the BBC, all are British" (? - English spread to the world thanks to them, it is like telling the Romans that they can't speak Latin correctly :)) If it were a US government site I can understand, but not quite for BBC or Brittanica.
  • In any case, I am sure that there are politics behind the name game (in fact I know :)), but I personally have heard the expression Arabian Gulf a lot, and the entailing controversy for a long time. What I have also noticed was that the Arabian Gulf usage has been increasing in the last two decades (again the reasons can be easily disputed for hours)
  • I would personally oppose a RM to move it to Arabian Gulf, but can't exactly see what harm it would do to have a "aka X in Y" in the lead or "the use of X has been gaining ground since ZZZZ" somewhere in the intro. That's all. I will try to do more research on this though. Baristarim 21:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
  • How about trying to file a RfC? Maybe the involvement of more neutral editors are needed.. Baristarim 21:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Reasons why the alternative name should be in naming dispute section:

1)Less than 20 countries use Arabian Gulf (contrary to claim of some editors not even all Arab countries use this name some of them do) not to mention that many of them only use it in Arabic not english.

2)Who lives next to this Gulf is irrelevant since it is an international body of water and IS NOT owned by any government so the Arabs living next to this Gulf don’t have more rights than anybody else to change its name (this is not a city or a river that the governments can rename) it is up to the international organizations.

3)UN considers its usage faulty and has never sanctioned it.

The "harm" that some editors were asking about is that mentioning it in the intro creates the image that both names are equally legitimate and as frequently used. This is the intention of some editors and it is a LIE!!

On one side we have name that is used in less than 20 countries (all of them of a certain ethnicity) and is considered faulty by UN and it did not exist 50 years ago!

On the other hand we have a name that is used by the whole world(not just a certain ethnicity)and is sanctioned as the ONLY legitimate name for this body of water and is used both today and historically.

The difference is clear. Gol 03:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

At Baristarim: The term Arabian Gulf is itself a British concoction and its use has been encouraged by Britain for decades since the early 20th century. Today, the British government is one of the countries at the forefront of having the name changed, and its close ties with Arab governments and the organization's within Britain that get heavy funding from Arab governments is a huge factor in the decision of the BBC and other British organizations.
Also, you mention that the term Arabian Gulf has come into usage mroe in the past two decades. That is true, and the reason is that Arab governments such as the UAE have started funding universities and museums all over Europe for the sole reason of having them to use the term Arabian Gulf of just the Gulf instead of the Persian Gulf. Most recently, the Arab funders of the Louvre museum FORCED the museum to remove the term Persian Gulf and only use the Gulf instead. The curator of the museum has expressed his severe dislike at this action and currently I believe the Iranian government and some other officials are taking action to reverse to change. Its all about money, nationalism, and racism, all of which the Arab governments have, and they are directing all of it against Iran, much like they did to the Ottomans (also because of the British), during WWI.Azerbaijani 05:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuess which name is right (for that go to Persian Gulf naming dispute). This gulf, just like Sea of Japan (East Sea) or English Channel(La Manche), has two alternative names, Arabian Gulf and Persian Gulf. Jidan 01:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It does not have two alternative names. I already said this, but I'll say it again. Nations do not get to choose to call international waters whatever name they like. There are historical reasons behind the two names of the Sea of Japan or the English Channel, but the term Arabian Gulf has no historical background, it was introduced as a political tool.I will repeat myself: Nations do not get to choose to name any international body of water whatever they want for whatever reason, if that was the case, everything would be chaotic.Azerbaijani 01:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Read my post above. And regarding your comment Arabian Gulf has no historical background, it was introduced as a political tool, again, you are discussing which name is right, and for that you have to go to Persian Gulf naming dispute. Even if it was called by the arabs the gulf of Micky Mous, but its official recognized by soverign states and used internationaly, it still has to be mentioned in the introduction. Jidan 02:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Jidan, this may come as a shock to you, but guess what, many nations have their own names for many bodies of water, but none of them are pushing those names to replace internationally recognized names. Iranians, for example, have another name for the Caspian sea, but tell me, is that name mentioned in the Caspian Sea article as an alternate name? You are not listening to me: Nations do not get to pick and choose whatever name they want to replace internationally recognized names for bodies of water. That goes for ethnicity too.Azerbaijani 03:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
How is the Sea of Japan (East Sea) or English Channel(La Manche) different from this case? Notic also thet Sea of Japan has also a Sea_of_Japan_naming_dispute. Jidan 20:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I have already addressed that. Arabian Gulf has no historical basis, its a political tool. In the case of Sea of Japan and the English Channel, there have been alternate names for hundreds of years. The different names are not politically motivated and are not the inventions of the 20th century. They are alternate names, but the Arabian Gulf is not an altnernate name, its a political tool, and has its roots in pan Arabism, colonialism, imperialism, nationalism, and racism, all within the 20th century.Azerbaijani 20:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Whether it has histroical basis or not (which it has[35]) is totatlly irrelvant. It usage is what matters. Jidan 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand the reason for objections to the mention of the Gulf's alternative in the introduction (in addition to the Arabian Gulf, the article should also mention that the body of water is also commonly called just "the Gulf"). Whatever the motives of the governments using the name Arabian Gulf or the veracity of the name, the fact is that it is commonly used in Arab countries and among non-Arabs. No-one wants to change the name of the article and I think there is a consensus that the Persian Gulf is the most used and most accepted name. But alternatives must be mentioned in the first sentence, as is the case for other water bodies subject to naming disputes.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 12:25, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Because it is NOT really an ALTERNATIVE in the international domain. If you use it alongside "Persian Gulf" you are giving it undue weight. It is already mentioned that some Arab countries use some other name (mostly internally) for the body of water. So that POV is represented. Behaafarid 13:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I know of no Arab who refers to the Gulf as Khaleej al-Farisi. It is always Khaleej al-Arabi or Arabian Gulf. This is the Arab alternative. You cannot get away from this fact.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 13:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
May be you should enlarge your circle of friends (with a different POV perhaps) There are a lot of Arabs who call Persian Gulf the Persian Gulf. Even on Arabic Wikipedia!.Behaafarid 13:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Arabic Wikipedia gives both alternative names, both in the article title and in the introductory paragraph (both are emboldened). See [36]. The article mainly refers to the Arabian Gulf, not the Persian Gulf. It says (my translation): "Arabian Gulf (the common name in the Arab world) or Persian Gulf (international designation) or the Basra Gulf (approved by Ottoman Turkey documents), is one of the centres of maritime trade through the Strait of Hormuz on the Indian Ocean for 7,000 years." If you prefer the Arabic Wikipedia version, I am willing to change it to that.--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 18:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what Arabic wikipedia does. This is English wikipedia. There is no source in Arabic until 50 years ago that calls it Arabian Gulf. This will be mentioned in the first paragraph before the name. Since it is important to get the ugly history behind this distortion. [37]. --alidoostzadeh 20:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
If tomarrow, I run for Canaidan prime minister, and all Canada start calling the whole Arabian countires the Terrorist Nations, does that make Terrorist nation a correct name? Or even an alternative. Ofcourse Canadian will never say that. --Arad 00:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf's name and its wide usage in the official documents and governmental documents

 Persian Gulf is an International name and term, it has 
 within International legal validity, any another 
 local name is an Apocryphal name.
United Nation is using only the Persian Gulf's name :

And about Amazon Site:,GGLJ:2006-40,GGLJ:en&q=persian+gulf+in+amazon

Do you Want more?!!! Ok here!!!!

Persian Gulf in NASA:
Persian Gulf in CNN:
Persian Gulf in the White House:
Persian Gulf in Canadian Ofiicial immigration site:
Persian Gulf in Canadian Embassy in uae!:

Still want more?!!! ok here!

Persian Gulf in US Congress:
Persian Gulf EIA:

The Energy Information Administration (EIA), created by Congress in 1977, is a statistical agency of the U.S. Department of Energy. Our mission is to provide policy-independent data, forecasts, and analyses to promote sound policy making, efficient markets, and public understanding regarding energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment.

Persian Gulf in History:
Please consider the Persian Gulf's name is using 
in all of the world and if any another name is using 
in local small arab countries, 
it is Apocryphal name 

Persian Gulf in The National Academies Press:
 Kind Regards,The Persian Gulf 08:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Again Pesian Gulf and again and again.... Persian Gulf Forever

I would like at first to thank you dear user: Azerbaijani for your kind action and useful information on this case.

Secondly I'd like to say that all of organizations that changed this Persian Gulf's name to the another Apocryphal name such as National geography or Louvre they have changed again it to the original name as the Persian Gulf.

So it seems all educated people knows this fact that arab or non arab can not buy the legal facts and historical facts by money, because the historical evidence and legal validity can not be bought by oil money.

Persian Gulf's name does not need to approve or any other evidence because this name is a unique name and if everyone wants to change it he/she is wasting his time and can not gain any thing.

I have another news from the Louvre Museum.

This aricle is in French and is translated to English by Google.

I will insert both of them here with its website link.

This is my news to everyone that think this name can be bought by money and what's a big mistake !!!!,GGLJ:2006-40,GGLJ:en&q=pejman+azadi

Thursday December 14, 2006

Louvre chooses the name of "Persian Gulf" after the sharp protests of Iran

The Persian Gulf 12:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf , the UK government learn this fact: the Persian Gulf will be remained Persian Gulf Forever.

arab governments can not change this name by the UK supporting never ever.
This is a very dirty political game, UK governments should learn that Persian Gulf is
Persian  Gulf and they can not change this name by arab supporting.
Actually UK government was Persian enemy during the 19 th century and also now they 
are trying to another conspiracy.
Persian GUlf will be remained Persian Gulf Forever.

The Need for "Arabian Gulf"

There must be a lot of money involved in this. I am neither arab nor persian but from what I have researched, "Arabian Gulf" is not an alternative but rather something that arab nations are investing huge sums of money to make alternative. There is a lot of money being wasted by these nations to try to change this name to "Arabian Gulf" to satisfy their nationalistic thirst.

These Arabs have sucked a lot of things from Persian culture to their name and this is one of the few last things that is left. And all they left is Islam. And they will try anything to destroy the rest of this old and prestigious culture. --Arad 02:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no dispute, THIS IS PERSIAN GULF

NO dispute, this is Persian Gulf. If tomorrow, me and 1000 (or even, let's say 100 million) people from my city started calling US the Junk Food Nation, does that make Junk Food Nation and alternative for US? US will remain US for ever and Persian Gulf is forever Persian. --Arad 02:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian Gulf Has been always Persian Gulf in the whole history.

All the people in the world even arabs know that the southern sea of the great land of Persia (IRAN) is Named and known by Persian Gulf. It's all because of western policies to stimulate arab people to think that Persian Gulf is arabian gulf. They are in a huge mistake. Because no one can change or deny history.Hamidreza tk --Hmrtk 20:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting addition

According to the research by Dr. Farhang Mehr, Mohammad the prophet of Islam called the Persian Gulf "Bahre Farsi" (Persian Sea).

Furthermore: This was the term used during the time of the prophet Mohammad and the four Right Guided Caliphs, which constitutes a "Sunna". Given the Sunna, one may question the permissibility of any change in the name of the "Persian Gulf" as it would constitute an innovation or Bed'a which is Hara'm. [38]

--Rayis 14:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Astaghfer Allah, this is a geographic name and has nothing to do with Islam...tell the Zoroastrian pseudo-scholar to do his homework before making empty claims. Arabs live on the shores from all sides of the gulf. It was always an Arabian Gulf.

Persian Gulf has NOT been always Persian Gulf

this is amusing how some people try to change historical facts and falsly accuse others for doing so !!!

first of all this body of water has not been always persian gulf, it had different names through history and this is a FACT.

civilizations lived on the coasts of this gulf for thousands of years and they were not all Persians,

the sumerian called the body of water the "lower sea" and the Babylonians called it the "bitter sea" and then the persians called it "Persian sea", and the changing continued after that, it was called "Basra Gulf" by the Ottomans and Arabs Now calls it Arabian Gulf.( there are good evidences that Arabian Gulf name was used long time before 1960s from the maps showed above by one of the members here)

the point is that it had different names and Wikipedia as a nutral source of information should recognise that and not bow to nationalisim, and "many" iranians has to read historical books ( neutral ones) before they start shouting here like igonrant nationalists. Ioj 07:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

your comments do not deserve any attention. one reason is that you say "civilisations.." this is just nonsense. there has been only one civilisation in the region. thats THE PERSIAN CIVILISATION. but for your information, the reason why people are trying to say that the name is persian gulf is more than what you call nationalism. what is accurate is the point. we all know how much money is involved in this so-called naming problem. and when it comes to history we think in persian scales and not arab scales. in this scale, name is what it s: the persian gulf.

LOL instead me giving you a history lesson (which may seem useless for someone as ignorant as you) but i will give you a quick one and please go read and teach yourself or even search here on wikipedia about "Other" civilizations that existed on that Gulf, what you said is the nonesense and very nationalisitc "persian scale" lol. and i can prove it, in brief, there were many civilizations existed on that gulf some thousands of years before the persian come, i did not talk about money or policitics, and all the fuss about even the mentioning of another "name" is clearly nationalistic thing, and this is not a persian nationalistic site so your "persian scale" is for yourself, here all articls supposed to be NUTERAL and based on FACTs not igonrant nationalicitc Bullshit. understand?.Ioj 14:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

arab giving history lesson to a persian!!! that's total nonsense. we persians dont need history lesson WE ARE THE HISTORY.

Persian Gulf has been always Persian Gulf during the History!!!

From the historical point of view this gulf has been always Persian Gulf and this is very clear that politics and money can not change this clear fact that this gulf is Persian Gulf!

Only Persian Gulf

any another name instead the Persian Gulf is an Apocryphal name due to the UN documents.

No need to mention that the Persian Gulf is the only registered name in UN and it is the only official name in the world.

Don't play with HISTORY AND LEGAL NAMES BY the money and politics!!!

Please add io:Persiana Gulfo

io:Persiana Gulfo - Thank you. io:User:Joao Xavier

hi all

who would beleive new country like united arab emirates start to forget their past!!!!

before 40 years ago the had nothing to drink and eat and all the sudden they start to have very old history! and sheikh mohamad dont even remember he was ejucated in Iran army university in shah time and he just mention he is ejucated from uk!!

now he made a history about fals arabian gulf because he think he is sheikh and have enough money to change the history!

maybe he or people like him who had nothing to offer from history of 40 years old small country need to capture and insult others priority and when you have nothing to make you rich try to steal others culture and every thing.

lofthanza pilot called persian gulf as arabian gulf last month which i traveled back to dubai... nokia company changed persian gulf to arabian gulf in his advertisement!!

in school they teach their children fals history about what they realy never been any ways.. and what have we done beside talking and signing pettition.

what can we do realy to stop them even if our goverment dont support us?

i am sure they wont be same who they are now, as this country was not made by british and usa only it was made by poor labours which they die daily and get paid 600-800 dirhams per month only in country that un direct slaves are ligal its normal to think their their ansisters which tried to destroy our culture since ever they entered to Great Iran... ?

shame on who ever change my persian gulf to false arabian gulf in any ways.

persian gulf will remain persian gulf for ever..

Nobody can not change this name! because Persian Gulf will be remained Persian Gulf Forever!!!

Hi to all,

I'd like to say that this is a very dirty political game and all of the world know that this is due to political problem of western countries with Iranian governments and this will be solved when Iran one day would be free and all of these problems will be ok, so don't be worry this name will be remained PERSIAN GULF and NOBODY CAN NOT CHANGE IT!!!!



Persian Gulf in Arabic is الخليج الفارسي al-khalīj al-fārisi NOT الخليج العربي al-khalīj al-ārbī which translates as Arabian Gulf.Azerbaijani 18:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

also check here: [39]. --alidoostzadeh 22:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi all, regarding this gulf, it is indeed called الخليج العربي (The Arabic Gulf) in Arabic. The debate we are trying to have here is not really about who has 'control' over it, but the naming in the Arabic language. Indeed, الخليج العربي is what it is called and has been called for a long time. As for the actual gulf itself, it isn't controlled or owned by one of the two sides. And for some of the editors here who are vehemently defending the naming الخليج الفارسي without proper sources, or even proper justification, please stop. There is no reason to start a lame edit war over something like this, the title of the article should follow what it is commonly referred to in English, since this is English wikipedia, but whether you like it or not, the fact is that in Arabic it is called 'The Arabic Gulf'. Thanks. Asabbagh 00:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi. If you mean by long time 50 years ago then that is not long time. In Arabic before 50 years ago it has been الفارسی and you would not find العربی. Check here if you do not believe me: [40]. Thus we are going by the historical name in Arabic texts. The modern name is Arabic text is mentioned later on in the article. --alidoostzadeh 00:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No, we are not going by any historical name. We are going by the name commonly used to refer to the gulf at this time. Thanks. Asabbagh 00:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, there is not a single Arabic text that has called it Arabian Gulf before the era of modern nationalism. Again since you read Arabic read this article [41]. Note the wiki policy: [42]. The fact is in all historical Arabic texts it has never been called any other name. Arabic language does not necessarily mean what Arab countries do or do not. This is English wikipedia and we follow what historical texts have said about the issue. The name is Arabic in the first line has to do with the common nae Persian Gulf which is mentioned in historical Arabic texts before the era of rabid nationalism[43] in Arab countries. Thus it is just another way of writing Persian Gulf per the historical Arabic texts (Ibn Batuba, Ibn hawqal..) I just mentioned. --alidoostzadeh 00:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No. The name used in Arabic on this encyclopedia should be the name that is used currently, by most (if not all) Arabs to refer to this gulf. This is not an issue of trying to imprint any Persian or Arabian culture on the gulf itself, not at all. Besides, look at the map, you will see that it the gulf is bordered roughly equally by Arab countries and by Iran. If you go to an Arab country and ask an Arab what this gulf is called, chances are they will say الخليج العربي. One more thing to point out, the Persian and the Arab cultures are extremely related, some would say intertwined, and I do not understand why this issue would cause a heated debate like this... Asabbagh 00:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the wikipedia policy is to not give undue weight to minority POV. Persian Gulf is the majority POV. I have already explained that in classical Arabic it is also Khalij Farsi. So the minority POV (in the western world and this is english wikipedia) should not be given the same weight. The reason that Iranians get upset over this issue is simple. From the Hadeeths of the Prophet Muhammad till 50 years in Arabic texts it has been Bahr-e-Fars, Khalij-e-Farsi.. but all of the sudden Nasser/Saddam.. come and change it to Khalij 'Arabi in Arabic speaking countries. The reason is simple. Two groups of people Arab countries do not like are Persians and Jews. Persians/Iranians despite being Muslims are disliked in Arab countries and that is why Nasser/Saddam changed the historical name. I am wondering if you would like it if someone calledSaudia Arabia as America or Persia? Personally I find this political manipulation racist as calling Saudia Arabia as Persia. There is also an Arabian sea in the Indian ocean and an Arabian Gulf in western literature used for the Red Sea. Thus the Arabic countries should fix their mistake with this regard and not try to propogate it. Note the historical revisionism with this regard. [[44]]. Interestingly enough they say Israel should be called فلسطین and Israel is a new name. Assuming that to be the case (and I am no expert on that issue), then why the double standard? Anyways the Arabic in the first line has to do with the common name Persian Gulf in Arabic spelling and we are mentioning it based on historical text[[45]]. Later on in the article it has been explained that Arab countries call it now Arabian Gulf but the wiki policy is to give the common and historical name prominence [[46]] --alidoostzadeh 00:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, do not give undue weight to minority POV. I assume that the majority of English sources refer to the gulf as 'Persian Gulf', and that's why the article is titled as such. However, the vast majority of Arabs call it 'Arabian Gulf', and that's why the Arabic name should be shown as such. Writing it as الخليج الفارسي is giving undue weight to minority POV. Pretty much all the analogies you made are false, especially the Israel/Palestine example, since the modern state of Israel is a country established on another country's land, and in no way is this similar to this gulf, which isn't really occupied by anyone. Thanks. Asabbagh 01:04, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes we have mentioned that Arabs called it Arabian Gulf later on. But the major name comes first. Writing it الخلیج الفارسی is just how Persian Gulf is pronounced in classical Arabic. Thus that needs to be mentioned as well. It does not negate the fact that Arab countries call it Arabian Gulf which is discussed later in the article as a minority POV can not be presented on the first line. But if there is confusion we can simply remove the Arabic in the first line. Nevertheless we have mentioned that Arab countries call it Arabian Gulf later in the article. Unlike the Arabian Gulf which has never been found in any Arabian text..the name Israel is mentioned by Jews . But I was trying to understand why Arab countries change names as it suits their political needs and then protest at the same time. Anyways I think the issue is resolved if we remove the Arabic from the first sentence or leave it as is since it is based on classical arabic texts. --alidoostzadeh 01:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The major name in Arabic is الخليج العربي. I have mentioned before that this is the majority POV. No, do not remove the Arabic name from the first sentence, and in my opinion having it as الخلیج الفارسی does not solve this dispute, for the reasons mentioned in all of the messages I have left here. The point I would like to emphasize, is that if both the current common name (الخليج العربي) and the historical name (الخلیج الفارسي, as has been claimed), are to be mentioned in the article (and I think they both should be mentioned), then the one which holds majority POV is the current common name, and that should be the one mentioned in the lead paragraph as the Arabic name of this gulf. What do you think of an RfC? Thanks. Asabbagh 01:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article covers all aspects of Persian Gulf including its history. The major name in Arabic historically has been Persian Gulf until 50 years ago. The current name of Arabian Gulf is also minority viewpoint in English. We need to mention that classical Arabic sources have not called it الخلیج العربی. They have used terms like بحر الفارسی و الخلیج فارسی .. So that is why the classical Arabic sources which are in harmony with western sources and Persian sources are mentioned. We can perhaps under the Arabic of the first line mention classical sources as a reference. Since the arabian gulf name is a minority point of view, (mainly shared mainly by arab countries and not the rest of the world) we need to either remove it or just mention in paranthesis that classical arabic sources..and for the modern name in Arabic countries see below. --alidoostzadeh 02:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Really, I've mentioned what I have to say several times and you still seem to overlook it. I will not explain to you once more. But, I will again propose an RfC. That way we can get a broader opinion. Asabbagh 09:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Been discussed a million times before. Persian Gulf is Persian Gulf, Israel is Israel, no matter how many people call it differently. --Rayis 10:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Rayis, it appears that you have not read any of my comments. Asabbagh 11:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Adding all available names in Arabic

Dear all,

Wikipedia is not a battleground[47]!! I suggest to add all names, used to describe this sea, in Arabic language. As far as I know, these are: الخليج العربي، الخليج الفارسي، خليج القطيف all together as it has been indicated through many different old maps and geographical references. Editors interested in this page are asked to give other suggestions. One-sided POV is refused in Wikipedia. I ask everyone to re-read the Five Pillars and remember that Wikpedia has a neutral point of view. Any disput should go through discussion, and then through this process but not deleting and re-deleting.

This page is going to be under monitor. Many editors and adminstrators get informed about this dispute and they are going to watch editing in this page and realted pages. Users are kindly asked to keep cool head when discussing in this talk page and follow Wikipedia:List of policies. Ralhazzaa 14:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope you need to discuss your changed. الخلیج العربی و خلیج القطیف are minority POV's. They can not be added and given the same weight and prominence as the common name. You can those other names later on the page. Read the guidelines about undue weight from wikipedia.[[weight]. --alidoostzadeh 14:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
hold on buddy.. I am not begging you! This is Wikipedia but not an elementary school in Tehran! Your discussion has deep ideological & political background and far away from Five Pillars. If you go back and re-read the discussion and evalute the language used by majority of users (including you!) you will find it biased, which is big violation for Wikipedia's polices. If you, yourself, decided to consider a names used by 300 million Arabic speaker, an official language of the UN, a historical name mentioned before Romans (as you can see in info u deleted!) as a minority POV and Undue weight, then we should apply your standard and ask your people to stop calling your country as Iran. This is a minority POV term as indicated here cannot change a historical fact!! French people should apply your "standard of weighing" and stop using the term "La Manche" as it is a minority POV!! Also, your "standard of weighing" should be applied on banning the use of "Great Britain" anywhere.. it is just a minority POV.. huh? Please have a cool head and try to understand that other people has the right to be correct but not in your way. Please consider a good level and good will through discussion here. Others may have a truth different from yours! Ralhazzaa 04:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This is the evidence page[[48]]. Lets see that historical name used before Romans! Note Strabo clearly refers to it as Persian Gulf. And there does not exist a single textual evidence for Arabian Gulf. It is good that you read that refutation before you place older edition of maps from the same books who were corrected and correctly used Persian Gulf in their text as well other maps of the older edition. Note in the English speaking world, your POV is a minority. Specially by the directive of the official US national geographic board your POV is minority in the largest English speaking country. The UN English site also clearly says Persian Gulf. As per your personal attack it has been reported to the admin. --alidoostzadeh 05:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey alidoostzadeh, just to let you know, this link has been posted a large number of times on this very page, so really I don't understand why you have to keep posting it again. You still, at the same time, continue to miss the point, which is that it doesn't matter what the common name in English is, the Arabic translation should be reported as the common name in Arabic, and not a translation of the common name in English. So, please, don't respond to this by saying something like ".. but historically it was not that..", because in doing so you are throwing the whole debate out of the window. Thanks. Asabbagh 07:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
If there is a name used by an old Roman historian (Pliny the Younger, 2000 years ago) but not satisfying you, this is not my problem! Greeks called it as Persian Gulf, so ok! This means that there is a name conflict with 2 names, simply. This shouldn't be a serious problem and could be found everywhere when two nations using different languages are sharing a territory as the British used to call "The British Channel" while Frenches saying "La Manche", this will never means that one is fake and other is completely true. May I remind you that we are talking about the "Arabic" name of this sea, not the English or the Persian?!! You keep translating it according to your believing and keep ignoring the true real name in Arabic language. You may find classical literature "written" in Arabic -thus, biased- (mayby by a persian, like al-istakhri) and use it as a reference, while keep ignoring the real, ancient & contemporary name(s) and live translation from English to Arabic. If you still not sure, leave this job to native Arabs, and I don't think you are native Arab to use this right. Also, you shouldn't refute the validity and credibility of ancient maps and books by saying "corrected". This may make you loose neutrality by falsifying human heritage for geopolitical-ethnic purposes. Maps & ancient books kept in museums since generations and used as sources for education and writing the history, besides UN documents in official language, shouldn't be claimed as "fake"! No one in the civilized world will accept this at all... corrected! huh.. We are mature buddy!! Ralhazzaa 07:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey alidoostzadeh! The link you are posting and re-using extesively is Iranian, but just written in English! It is not accepted at all as a neutral reference. Do you want me to create a website in English saying there is no sun in the solar system then rely on it in wirting "Our Sunless Solar System" in Wikipedia? Please show more credibility in using references, and stop saying "fake" and "corrected map/book". This is not good at all ;) Ralhazzaa 07:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ali. This is not Arabic wikipedia, the Arabic translation should reflect the common English title. That said, the Arabic translation you're pushing for is already there under the naming dispute section, anything more constitutes undo weight as debated and agreed upon over and over. --Mardavich 09:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think there is a big gap between Translation and Transliteration? If we should accept your idea, sir, so we should delete the word "La Manche" from the English page of the English Channel and replace it with "Canal Anglais" (nice tune)! or delete the Spanish name of Falkland Islands, Islas Malvinas, from its English page on Wikipedia, or stop using the term Taiwan as it is formally Republic of China and it is not accepted by ROC to mention them as just Taiwan!! right sir? If we are going to include the Arabic name for this sea, then it is الخليج العربي (literaly: Al-Khaleij Al-Arabi). Saying الخليج الفارسي (Al-Khaleij Al-Farsi) in Arabic is really drive me fall of laughing. Why no Algerian is shouting asking the English speaking people to stop saying Algeria and use Aljaza'er? Keep cool and consider live translation instead of machine transliteration, like Algerians ;) I hope no Iranian, in the future, will go to the Arabic page of Tehran and urge to replace the ط with ت as the first letter in the name Ralhazzaa 10:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Pliny also uses Persian Gulf for Persian Gulf and uses Arabian Gulf for the red sea[49]. As per the Arabic name.. it can be removed from the begining or used in its true historical Arabic context.[50]. --alidoostzadeh 02:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Each name should be used in the right and truth! so Persian Gulf should be used for the gulf between Iran and local arabian countries

The gulf between Iran (Persia) and the other local arab countries is named Persian Gulf. and if any other word is used it is wrong word!!! As well the Persian Gulf's name is the only registered name in the UN.


You know what? This is the exact reason we have wars in the world and people kill each other every day. Instead of looking at what makes us the same, we just see what makes us different. I know this is a cliché, but why can't we all get along?

Why do you all spend so much time and energy arguing about semantics like this? The world is dying and one day could end up so hot it would be uninhabitable if we don't change our ways. I really wish that people would be so passionate about making the world a better place as they are here about arguing about names of things. Imagine would could be done if all the time and energy in this debate had been used to help stop what is left of the slave trade.....who knows what could have been done by now.

I am so ashamed to be human


As the "Arabian" Gulf name does exist and is mentioned in the article, it should receive mention in the lead. I'd suggest re-adding the older form with a slight modification: "also known as the Arabian Gulf in Arab countries [1], though this alternate name is a subject of dispute (source)."

Sound fair? I mean, it is just adhering to WP:LEAD anyway, but still, what do you all think of this compromise? Also feel free to suggest better wording as something seems awkward about it right now. The Behnam 06:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You came here as part of your stalking my edits, like your edit on Koryun. But read the talk page again, your suggestion is nothing new, and there is a clear consensus against it. ArmenianJoe 07:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The talk page

Someone might want to cleanup the talk page: it really looks ugly and confusing with broken threads, sixty section headings and badly formatted posts. Archiving might be a good place to start :) Baristarim 05:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)