Talk:Persian language

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Parsī or Farsī?[edit]

This article is well done, for there are no evident historical misunderstandings to be found. Nevertheless, I'd like to add some common misinterpretations concerning the Arabs' “conquest” of the ancient Sasanian Empire, mostly expressed by Iranian and other nationalists who had borrowed certain approaches to history, for instance blaming “the Arabs” for everything that went wrong in that area.
It seems to be an old saying that “the Arabs”, especially their script, do not own the sound “p”, and therefore, after the so-called “conquest” of the Sasanian Empire, “they” changed all former Persian names with a “p” into “f”. So, they assume, it became Farsī (فارسي) instead of Pārsī (پارسي) and Iṣfahān instead of Ispahān, for instance. But there is this question: Why have some words survived until today, like pedar (پدر), panǧ (پنج), or paḏīroftan (پذيرفتن)? Until now I couldn't find any answer.
In Arabic you still find, for instance, the word Iṣbahān (اصبهان) which means that “the Arabs” changed the p-sound into a b-sound, as well. Iṣbahān, for instance, is the name for a Moroccan/Andalusian musical mode (ṭab‘/طبع), too. And there is this famous medieval musician and musicologist called al-Iṣbahānī (also al-Iṣfahānī (see both forms in this article!)
My supposition is based on the fact that at that period many languages were in a state of sound-changing. There are examples of Indo-European languages like Father, in Icelandic Fadhir, in German Vater (pronounced “Fater”). But all of these words correspond with Latin pater, Greek patéras, Sanskrit pitar, and last but not least Persian pedar. Similarly there is the word for five (in English), fünf (in German), pet (in Eastern European languages), pente (in Greek), and last but not least panǧ in Persian. All these examples show very easily how the f and p sounds are kind of exchangeable. And therefore “the Arabs” cannot be blamed for replacing the p into f.
Not to forget: “The Arabs” were just a handful of beduines in “conquering” a huge empire! This empire was extremely weakened by itself, for there were the uprisings of several social movements against the strict Zoroastrian and political hierarchy in the 5th and 6th century CE (the Mazdaki movement, for instance), and, by the way, there were these permanent wars with the Eastern Roman Empire. All of these elements were the real cause of the Sasanian Empire's collapse. “The Arabs” just took advantage of the entire situation.
Last but not least: The Arab script is the developped derivation of the old Aramaic script which was the official script in the Sasanian period. Therefore the orthography is nearly the same.--Imruz (talk) 17:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The changing of the Persian letter "P" into either "B" or "F" can be attributed to the Arab conquests of Persia. One should not necessarily take offense to this, rather, it is to educate as to why certain names are the way they are, and why there is "Farsi" and "Parsi". As is the nature of Wikipedia, if one finds something to be inaccurate, one is free to edit it with their factual input. That's the beauty of Wikipedia. With peace. Negahbaan (talk) 22:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

This articles uses Farsi as that is by far the more common usage in both Persian and in English, and we go by common usage.Jeppiz (talk) 12:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Shouldn't we take into consideration that the name of the language in Persian (not Arabic) started with either p or f in different historical stages of the Persian language alone? 88.103.175.144 (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

No, we should not. We don't call English "Ænglisc" either. Jeppiz (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I just meant that in the article it is not explained what the Persian name for the Persian alnguage was in different stages of the language. That is what I meant. Can someone explain? 2A00:1028:919E:BE42:1DCC:D52F:B889:482C (talk) 13:26, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
Ah, sorry. I misunderstood you. Yes, if we can find a good reliable source that explains the change, I'm sure it could be integrated. Jeppiz (talk) 13:34, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

SIL macrolangauge[edit]

According to SIL, Persian macrolanguage includes only 2 languages. So other languages which are not belonged should be removed for consistency. We should wait until SIL update their data. --Octra Bond (talk) 04:16, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

| lc3=tgk  |ld3=[[Tajik language|Tajik]]<!--This and the following codes aren't part of the macrolanguage per SIL-->
| lc4=aiq  |ld4=[[Aimaq language|Aimaq]]
| lc5=bhh  |ld5=[[Bukhori language|Bukharic]]
| lc7=haz  |ld7=[[Hazaragi language|Hazaragi]]
| lc8=jpr  |ld8=[[Dzhidi language|Dzhidi]]
| lc9=phv  |ld9=[[Pahlavani language|Pahlavani]]
| lc10=deh |ld10=[[Dehwari language|Dehwari]]
| lc11=jdt |ld11=[[Juhuri language|Juhuri]]
| lc12=ttt |ld12=[[Tat language (Caucasus)|Caucasian Tat]]
Where does the infobox state that it only should list SIL Macrolanguages? Just lump all of it IMO. - LouisAragon (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
  • What about this [1] archiveurl? Also, why we ignore all other sources and only consider SIL? For example, Tajiki is an obvious dialect/variety of Persian. How SIL guys ignored linguistic data/facts and separated it from other Persian dialects (Dari and Iranian)? Same for the other ones. See their articles and cited sources how linguistic classified all of them as Persian varieties/dialects. --Zyma (talk) 16:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
@Kwamikagami: Ethnologue has traditionally been our source of last resort, so I agree with Zyma that we should not rely exclusively on SIL, but consider others and give priority to more specialised sources (such as Iranica or Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:30, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
We're not following Ethnologue. That's why we include all those ISO languages which are not part of ISO Persian. If we have good (rather than just convenient) sources that additional varieties should be included, by all means let's include them. And if I got some wrong (assuming I'm the one responsible), by all means let's remove them. Let's just be sure that they have their own articles (or are merged into another language) and are listed appropriately in the superior clade so that our readers can find them.
As to Octa's original question, we're not following Ethnologue, but Glottolog. Ethnologue and ISO are not reliable sources. The reason we depend on them so heavily is that they're very convenient, and when we went through and made sure we had articles or redirects for all ISO codes, Ethnologue was generally the only source we used. But when more reliable sources, such as specialist literature, disagrees, we should follow. That's more difficult, of course: we need to decide which source to use, or if we create an amalgam of several, as opposed to the mindless regurgitation of whatever Ethnologue says. That can result in cherry-picking, POV edits, nationalism and partisanships -- in other words, actual work. But if we have the people willing to do that work, let them go for it.
Currently, inclusion in this article is decided by what Glottolog includes under its "Farsic-Caucasian Tat" node (We could narrow it down to their "Farsic" node by removing Tat, but can't narrow it down any further based on that source without dividing up Western Persian from Tajik.) Glottolog is based on Schmitt (2000), who the editors determined was the best source for classification. If we want to use a different classification, we should have reason to believe our judgement is better than that of the linguists at Glottolog. — kwami (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
But the language names used by Schmitt's subclassification are uncommon. For example, he uses [Farsic] instead of Persian. When he uses Farsic and Farsi instead of Persian, why he didn't call Old Persian as Old Farsi too? Any reason to call some varieties Farsi and the others Persian? I don't see any valid point in using this name "Farsic". This is the reason why I say we shouldn't ignore other sources and we just represent SIL/Ethnologue or Glottolog for language families and classifications. --Zyma (talk) 12:22, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Zyma has a point, Glottolog has its own quirks and idiosyncrasies (even if they may be inherited from the idiosyncrasies of the sources it uses). Some personal judgment in choice of sources is inevitable. That's what we have expert editors for, after all. Even choosing Glottolog over SIL is ultimately an arbitrary (if informed) decision, not something that can be derived from some Wikipedia rule. We can't do without decisions and choices informed by individual Wikipedians' expertise – as handy as it would be if we could outsource them. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. Similar to my points, I agree with you. --Zyma (talk) 06:00, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
The editors of Glottolog make up names as they go along, as they consider them to be trivial and not worth fussing over. They are therefore not a RS for naming. They are better than Ethnologue for classification, mutual intelligibility and as a bibliography.
Anyway, no-one said anything about using Glottolog names. — kwami (talk) 02:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Western Persian, Dari language, Tajik language[edit]

There's been some tendentious editing, but also an issue with the name. Hopefully the forms "Western Persian or 'Farsi' ... Dari ... Tajiki" are not objectionable to any non-brigading editor. Now "WP or Farsi" is pretty straightforward, and Dari is doubled apparently to parallel the other two languages. As for Tajik language and Tajiki, they are actually different names; you can say "Tajiki", but saying "Tajik" alone is like saying "speak *Arab". You have to either add the ezāfe or a term like "language" after it. Likely Dari was doubled as a parallelism to match the other two dialect names, but I think we should dispense with them except for "WP or 'Farsi'". Ogress 03:43, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This seems reasonable to me (though I don't know what "brigading" is supposed to mean :p ). --JBL (talk) 12:23, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
The problem editor spamming us with IP-hopping reverts with zero attempt to reply to anyone or to even use the edit summaries, who I just reverted again. Ogress 22:20, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Map[edit]

about Persian Language Location Map, the Previous map had some mistakes. for example Sonqor Satar Sahneh Kangavar Harsin Bisotun Ilam and Kamyaran in Iran and some parts of Diyala Governorate in Iraq considered as Persian speaking cities but it's not true. I replaced it with another map and I corrected the new one.see the new one --– Hossein Iran « talk » 21:28, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Your map may be a more accurate version than current image, but both maps are not based on reliable sources. They're just personal works without any sources. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Wario-Man: I added sources. see again please --– Hossein Iran « talk » 13:15, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Hosseiniran:, I just checked your English sources; so far, I can't see anything that backs up your claims. Interestingly, I just noticed the map in general; how come Northeastern Azerbaijan and some minor areas in southern Dagestan are omitted on it, btw? Plenty of (English) sources to be found regarding that. Anyhow, I'd say. ask on Wikimedia for the current map to be unlocked, and then actually fix it per the reliable sources. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


@LouisAragon: i cleaned some of non Persian speaking cities which based on sources their language are not Persian. --– Hossein Iran « talk » 21:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Farsi/Parsi, for the n-th time[edit]

I'm going to revert, once more, the change edit-warred into this page by Malekfarugh (talk · contribs) [2][3][4], as a rather blatant act of source falsification.

This is yet another editor trying to gloss over the fact that this language is also referred to as Farsi in English, making it sound as if Farsi was exclusively used "locally", i.e. in Persian itself. The source supports the exact opposite: the author, Kamran Talattof, explicitly acknowledges that Farsi "has become the standard word used by many English and non-English speakers to refer to modern Persian", and that "[s]ome Iranian authorities have actually encouraged this and have engaged in a systematic attempt to change the name of the language in the international communities to Farsi". Sure, he then goes on to argue why he personally considers that choice to be unfortunate. But while that's a respectable opinion by a respectable academic, it is of course quite irrelevant to the factual situation that Wikipedia needs to report on.

The editor has also again tried to further downplay the role of the name "Farsi" by juxtaposing it with "Parsi", making it appear as if it were just one among several local alternatives. The source by Talattof says absolutely nothing to that effect; it mentions "Parsi" only once as the historical etymon of "Farsi", but not as a living present-day synonym, and otherwise leaves no doubt that "Farsi" is not just a native name, but the native name in Persian. It's curious to see how dozens of editors have been pushing "Parsi" into this article over the years, without any of them ever making any serious attempt to document with proper sources where and by whom it is actually used.

Incidentally, Malekfarough has also repeatedly messed up the citation itself, first giving a false name for its author, and then mixing up two different source websites in one footnote. Neither of them ("iranian.com" and some private Iranian club at a US university) are reliable sources by any stretch. Since the actual author is a reputable academic expert, we could probably invoke the exception under WP:RSSELF here, but it would still be preferable to cite his actual book publications instead ("Replacing Persian with Farsi: what's in a name", in: Persian Language, Literature and Culture: New Leaves, Fresh Looks, ed. Kamran Talatoff, Routledge 2015, is a fine source for this discussion. No problem citing that, if and when we have something to say here that it actually serves to support.)

Fut.Perf. 17:45, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Talattof article was written in late 1990s. After that many noticed their mistake in calling Persian, "Farsi" in English (after 1980) and now once again the official term everywhere is Persian: Dictionaries, Iran's state news agencies, EU-based Persian media, universities, etc. In regard of Farsi/Parsi issue, many Persian articles now uses PARSI in their texts too. It is not something just historical. But as you can not read Persian text you can not check. Thanks.--Malekfarugh (talk) 09:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Your newest edits [5][6] are still unacceptable, as is your argumentation here. Your claim that the Talattof article is outdated is baseless – as I just said, Talattof published an actual book chapter on the same topic only in 2015, and he is still describing the exact same situation there (and if you thought it was outdated, why did you cite it in the first place?!) "Farsi" still remains a frequently used and entirely acceptable name in the English speech community, and whether you (or Talattof, or the Persian Language Academy) like that or not, is entirely immaterial to the way our lede is going to be worded. Frequently used synonyms go in the lead sentence of Wikipedia articles, and they go there without POV editorializing disparaging them. This whole idea of giving emphasis to the POV disagreement over this term is giving entirely undue weight to a fringe issue – unless you can show that there is a vastly larger body of serious academic coverage of that dispute than you've shown so far, even mentioning it in the lead section is undue, let alone endorsing one opinion as you are trying to do. There are many, many interesting points to be made about this great beautiful language that are of infinitely higher importance and interest to our readers and would have a much higher priority to be mentioned within the confined space of the lead paragraphs than this obscure ideological quibble over terminology. Needless to say, the two additional webpages you've added links to both fail WP:RS. And the sentence you added, about that name having "no legal validity" is plain nonsensical – what on earth would it even mean for a language name to have "legal validity"? The English speech community isn't subject to somebody else's legislation regarding what it chooses to call things.
As for "Parsi", you still haven't produced even a single relevant source and have only restated your personal assertion. The matter is not whether I can go and check what people use; the question is whether you can produce reliable, secondary sources from the published academic literature describing that usage. You haven't, so it goes out again. And you'd better stop edit-warring about it. Fut.Perf. 12:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)