Talk:Persian language

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Western Persian, Dari language, Tajik language[edit]

There's been some tendentious editing, but also an issue with the name. Hopefully the forms "Western Persian or 'Farsi' ... Dari ... Tajiki" are not objectionable to any non-brigading editor. Now "WP or Farsi" is pretty straightforward, and Dari is doubled apparently to parallel the other two languages. As for Tajik language and Tajiki, they are actually different names; you can say "Tajiki", but saying "Tajik" alone is like saying "speak *Arab". You have to either add the ezāfe or a term like "language" after it. Likely Dari was doubled as a parallelism to match the other two dialect names, but I think we should dispense with them except for "WP or 'Farsi'". Ogress 03:43, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This seems reasonable to me (though I don't know what "brigading" is supposed to mean :p ). --JBL (talk) 12:23, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
The problem editor spamming us with IP-hopping reverts with zero attempt to reply to anyone or to even use the edit summaries, who I just reverted again. Ogress 22:20, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, what on earth does "brigading" mean? (PeacePeace (talk) 22:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC))

Map[edit]

about Persian Language Location Map, the Previous map had some mistakes. for example Sonqor Satar Sahneh Kangavar Harsin Bisotun Ilam and Kamyaran in Iran and some parts of Diyala Governorate in Iraq considered as Persian speaking cities but it's not true. I replaced it with another map and I corrected the new one.see the new one --– Hossein Iran « talk » 21:28, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Your map may be a more accurate version than current image, but both maps are not based on reliable sources. They're just personal works without any sources. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Wario-Man: I added sources. see again please --– Hossein Iran « talk » 13:15, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Hosseiniran:, I just checked your English sources; so far, I can't see anything that backs up your claims. Interestingly, I just noticed the map in general; how come Northeastern Azerbaijan and some minor areas in southern Dagestan are omitted on it, btw? Plenty of (English) sources to be found regarding that. Anyhow, I'd say. ask on Wikimedia for the current map to be unlocked, and then actually fix it per the reliable sources. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)


@LouisAragon: i cleaned some of non Persian speaking cities which based on sources their language are not Persian. --– Hossein Iran « talk » 21:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Farsi/Parsi, for the n-th time[edit]

I'm going to revert, once more, the change edit-warred into this page by Malekfarugh (talk · contribs) [1][2][3], as a rather blatant act of source falsification.

This is yet another editor trying to gloss over the fact that this language is also referred to as Farsi in English, making it sound as if Farsi was exclusively used "locally", i.e. in Persian itself. The source supports the exact opposite: the author, Kamran Talattof, explicitly acknowledges that Farsi "has become the standard word used by many English and non-English speakers to refer to modern Persian", and that "[s]ome Iranian authorities have actually encouraged this and have engaged in a systematic attempt to change the name of the language in the international communities to Farsi". Sure, he then goes on to argue why he personally considers that choice to be unfortunate. But while that's a respectable opinion by a respectable academic, it is of course quite irrelevant to the factual situation that Wikipedia needs to report on.

The editor has also again tried to further downplay the role of the name "Farsi" by juxtaposing it with "Parsi", making it appear as if it were just one among several local alternatives. The source by Talattof says absolutely nothing to that effect; it mentions "Parsi" only once as the historical etymon of "Farsi", but not as a living present-day synonym, and otherwise leaves no doubt that "Farsi" is not just a native name, but the native name in Persian. It's curious to see how dozens of editors have been pushing "Parsi" into this article over the years, without any of them ever making any serious attempt to document with proper sources where and by whom it is actually used.

Incidentally, Malekfarough has also repeatedly messed up the citation itself, first giving a false name for its author, and then mixing up two different source websites in one footnote. Neither of them ("iranian.com" and some private Iranian club at a US university) are reliable sources by any stretch. Since the actual author is a reputable academic expert, we could probably invoke the exception under WP:RSSELF here, but it would still be preferable to cite his actual book publications instead ("Replacing Persian with Farsi: what's in a name", in: Persian Language, Literature and Culture: New Leaves, Fresh Looks, ed. Kamran Talatoff, Routledge 2015, is a fine source for this discussion. No problem citing that, if and when we have something to say here that it actually serves to support.)

Fut.Perf. 17:45, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi. Talattof article was written in late 1990s. After that many noticed their mistake in calling Persian, "Farsi" in English (after 1980) and now once again the official term everywhere is Persian: Dictionaries, Iran's state news agencies, EU-based Persian media, universities, etc. In regard of Farsi/Parsi issue, many Persian articles now uses PARSI in their texts too. It is not something just historical. But as you can not read Persian text you can not check. Thanks.--Malekfarugh (talk) 09:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Your newest edits [4][5] are still unacceptable, as is your argumentation here. Your claim that the Talattof article is outdated is baseless – as I just said, Talattof published an actual book chapter on the same topic only in 2015, and he is still describing the exact same situation there (and if you thought it was outdated, why did you cite it in the first place?!) "Farsi" still remains a frequently used and entirely acceptable name in the English speech community, and whether you (or Talattof, or the Persian Language Academy) like that or not, is entirely immaterial to the way our lede is going to be worded. Frequently used synonyms go in the lead sentence of Wikipedia articles, and they go there without POV editorializing disparaging them. This whole idea of giving emphasis to the POV disagreement over this term is giving entirely undue weight to a fringe issue – unless you can show that there is a vastly larger body of serious academic coverage of that dispute than you've shown so far, even mentioning it in the lead section is undue, let alone endorsing one opinion as you are trying to do. There are many, many interesting points to be made about this great beautiful language that are of infinitely higher importance and interest to our readers and would have a much higher priority to be mentioned within the confined space of the lead paragraphs than this obscure ideological quibble over terminology. Needless to say, the two additional webpages you've added links to both fail WP:RS. And the sentence you added, about that name having "no legal validity" is plain nonsensical – what on earth would it even mean for a language name to have "legal validity"? The English speech community isn't subject to somebody else's legislation regarding what it chooses to call things.
As for "Parsi", you still haven't produced even a single relevant source and have only restated your personal assertion. The matter is not whether I can go and check what people use; the question is whether you can produce reliable, secondary sources from the published academic literature describing that usage. You haven't, so it goes out again. And you'd better stop edit-warring about it. Fut.Perf. 12:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
I feel that the following sentence, in the current version, is misleading: "Since the latter decades of the 20th century, for political reasons, in English, Farsi has become the name of the Persian language as it is spoken in Iran." This makes it sound as if "Farsi" is currently the usual name in English; the writer also gives no reference for this assertion. In fact, although it is true that some British and American writers refer to the language as used in Iran as "Farsi", yet it seems that it is still much more common to refer to it as "Persian". For example, if we put the phrases "Farsi language" and "Persian language" into Google ngrams, the latter is 20x as common. (Admittedly Google ngrams are not always 100% reliable, but they perhaps give some idea of the relative frequency.) It appears that "Farsi" is more commonly used by American writers than by British. At any rate this sentence, I would say, needs toning down or rewriting to give a different emphasis. Kanjuzi (talk) 11:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
I find I agree with Kanjuzi's conclusion (tone the sentence down), but only in part with the user's reasoning. I searched for language courses (at colleges across the US, and also at for-pay courses in NYC and Los Angeles). Farsi is used in US English. Persian is used in US English. Farsi/Persian or Persian/Farsi are used side-by side in US English. The handful of college catalogs I saw all used Persian. The private courses in NYC were fairly evenly divided, while in LA there is a clear lean to Farsi. There seem to be thousands of easy sources for each one, and at least dozens of mutually contradictory explanations from Reliable Sources explaining why one is right and the other wrong. Jd2718 (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
If you enter "speak Farsi" and "speak Persian" into ngrams you find that for American books since the 1980s, the two phrases are equally common, but for British books, "speak Persian" is more common. So it is probably true that in the United States "Farsi" has common usage. If you look up books about Persian on Amazon, you find that some call it "Persian" and others call it "Farsi". As you see from the way I have now phrased it, I think I have expressed the situation fairly, with two references for each usage from Iranian writers writing about Persian in English. It would have been possible to put 3 or 4 references on each side, since the two seem equally common. Kanjuzi (talk) 11:48, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Could it be that P & F are allophones to native speakers, & that they cannot tell the difference any more than some orientals cannot distinguish l and r? At an oriental restaurant the waiter asked me what kind of lice I wanted! (PeacePeace (talk) 22:59, 17 August 2017 (UTC))
No, not really. P and f are distinguished clearly both in the phonological system (see Persian language#Consonants) and in the spelling system. The relationship between the two is an historical one. Fut.Perf. 18:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Parsi-Farsi, when first attested in English[edit]

According to the easily available Merriam-Webster Collegiate dictionary, the name Farsi for the language was first attested in 1878, while the term Parsi for the religious group, in 1583. The latter word even antedates this, to as old as 1398, according to the OED1, though back then it seemed to mean simply Persian (whether Zoroastrian or not). However, an anonymous editor added this, stating other dates and citing the current online edition of OED, which unfortunately cannot be so easily checked. Could anybody check the OED, or better still, cite some portion of either the Farsi or Parsi articles?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:20, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Sassanian Middle Persian court language called Dari[edit]

Sassanian spoke Middle Persian language which is ancestor to western persian due to the proximity of the region. This statement that Middle Persian was called Dari is completely absurd .

similarly these statements "The first poems of the Persian language, a language historically called Dari, emerged in Afghanistan." is also absurd as the next line states ruduki as the persian poet who was born in present Tajikistan not Afghanistan. There was no Dari or Tajiki mentioned by Ruduki himself, samanids themselves claimed descent from Sassanians which claimed descent from the first persian empire. Some afghan nationalists are trying to edit war I suppose.

-I think you don't know the proper history of the Persian language. Zaban Darbari, shortened to "Dari" is correct as written in article currently, please read source materials before trying to instigate something out of a complete non-issue. 73.85.205.80 (talk) 22:23, 14 June 2017 (UTC)


Remember there is only reference to either parthian or parsi which is a southwestern dielect and originated in fars , thats why name is farsi , farsi was language of priests and senior people while darbary people included people from east iran too that spoke a different dielect , that was called darbary language but not dari. If a language originated in fars and then dehqan samanid who claims descent from persian empire that is parsik empire so he introduced persisnn which was adopted by eastern iranians and gave rise to dari later . No mention of dari by sasanids neither by samanids etc .

@Saladin1987: Why you don't sign your comments? Read DARĪ at Encyclopaedia Iranica. And don't change/remove the sourced content. --Wario-Man (talk) 05:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)