Talk:Phoenicia

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Israel/Palestine[edit]

So, this is still a hot mess? Whether WP:ARBPIA covers it or not is one question, but more interesting (for the readers) is the question of whether we can get it right. So let's try to get it right. The State of Palestine, as far as I can tell, has only the Gaza strip on the coast, and it does not extend as far north as File:PhoenicianTrade.png extends south. I know, this is maps, and guesswork, etc. But let's focus on the main question: the reader of Phoenicia isn't interested in the P-I issue; they simply want to know where to find this on a modern map. So let's try to find some neutral and correct wording. Doug Weller, I see you've touched on this issue before and I'm interested in your thoughts. Also found on this talk page (Talk:Phoenicia#Palestine_and_the_Kingdom_of_Israel) is an ancient comment by George which was never answered--and George seems to have left the building in 2011. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Drmies Not sure yet, but the EW is still going on. Doug Weller talk 12:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Not that I want to restart a war, but I am of the opinion that we cannot privilege one or the other of the two contenders in a dispute that is not yet settled, and that, therefore, we should call that region by the two names in alphabetical order, i.e. Israel/Palestine. BTW there is a typo in the lede, a twice repeated "of the" before Canaanite subgroup. Carlotm (talk) 10:18, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Error?[edit]

In 5.1 Genetic studies (first paragraph) one may read: "...followed by "Cyprus and South Turkey; then Crete; then Malta and East Sicily". Yet East Sicily was predominantly Greek, whereas Phoenicians were settled on the Western side of Sicily. Carlotm (talk) 08:39, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Genetic origin[edit]

This article says the origin of the Phoenicians was Semitic while a recent scientific study discovered that the complete mitochondrial genome recovered from the Young Man of Byrsa (i.e. a Phoenician) identify that he carried a rare European haplogroup, likely linking his maternal ancestry to Phoenician influenced locations somewhere on the North Mediterranean coast, the islands of the Mediterranean or the Iberian Peninsula. In other words, at least that man had European, not necessarily Semitic origins. While this evidence cannot be called conclusive as regards the Phoenicians as a group, this probably should call for attention in racially classifying Phoenicians (and also for mentioning that study in the article). The study is here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155046 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.50.187.218 (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it really says anything about Phoenicians other than that their sailors slept with women in the places they visited - well, they were sailors, and sailors are known for having a girl in every port. Doug Weller talk 14:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2017[edit]

It states the coastline of Palestine it should state Israel.

It included the coastline of what is now Lebanon, Palestine, Gaza, Syria, and south-west Turkey, though some of its colonies later reached the Western Mediterranean (most notably Carthage) and even the Atlantic Ocean. The civilization spread across the Mediterranean between 1500 BC and 300 BC.

It included the coastline of what is now Lebanon, Israel, Gaza, Syria, and south-west Turkey, though some of its colonies later reached the Western Mediterranean (most notably Carthage) and even the Atlantic Ocean. The civilization spread across the Mediterranean between 1500 BC and 300 BC. 79.74.254.68 (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Done — nihlus kryik  (talk) 06:29, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Territory?[edit]

@Nihlus Kryik:I am trying to figure this one out. We have a map of Phoenician cities in which the Tyre is shown but that's in Lebanon, nothing in ancient Palestine or Israel. We have a copy of an old map which claims to be of Phoenicia but is titled "Towns of aram" and is described as a map of Damascus. What's that doing here? Aram (biblical region) is in Syria. We have a hand drawn OR "map of Phoenicia", apparently intended to give a rough idea of the part of the Levant known as "Phoenicia", it does not correspond to any historical empire or polity. The cities indicated are the ancient Phoenician city states, perhaps in the Late Bronze Age (?)" - that's copied from the description.

Sources: Early Antiquity edited by I. M. Diakonoff University of Chicago Press."Ancient Phoenicia approximately corresponded to the modern state of Lebanon.[1]

The Ancient Near East By John L. McLaughlin[2] [3]"Phoenicia was never a unified country but rather a collection of city-states, the most important being Akka, Aradus, Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre. Often one city took on greater significance and influence in the region; Byblos was dominant in the early years, followed by Sidon in the north and Tyre in the south."

The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade[4] By Maria Eugenia Aubet[5] Cambridge University Press "The territory called Phoim'ke by the Greeks extends along the coastal fringe of the eastern Mediterranean and its geographical boundaries coincide roughly with those of modern Lebanon. This region, which we call Phoenicia, situated between the mountains of Lebanon and the Mediterranean sea, is all that had been preserved of ancient Canaan,"

Phoencians by Glenn Markoe, University of California Press [6]. "Geographically, the Phoenicians are no more easily defined. According to the ancient classical authors, they occupied the entire Levantine coast between the Suez and the Gulf of Alexandretta. In actuality, however, their heartland was considerably smaller, consisting of a narrow coastal strip between the Lebanon mountains and the Mediterranean sea stretching from northern Palestine to southern Syria - a slightly extended version ofmodern Lebanon. The dichotomy suggests that the term ‘Phoenician’ in antiquity was broadly applied to any Semitic sea-trader. Such ambiguity, ironically, may reflect historical reality. Unlike their Syrian or Palestinian neighbours, the Phoenicians were a confederation of traders rather than a country defined by territorial boundaries.Their empire was less a stretch of land than a patchwork of widely scattered merchant communities. Maritime trade, not territory, defined their sphere." Doug Weller talk 09:02, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: You know a lot more about this than I do. However, I have seen maps with Dor, Israel, being within Phoenician territory around 1000 BCE, but I don't know how reliable those are. I was leaning to removing both Israel and Palestine, but I am not comfortable in my knowledge about the topic to make that decision. — nihlus kryik  (talk) 09:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2017[edit]

The article states that purple dye was made from the SHELL of the Murex snail. That is incorrect. The dye is made from the body of the snail, specifically a mucus gland. 2602:304:68AC:6140:60EE:2776:65:37B9 (talk) 03:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 04:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC)