Talk:Physical attractiveness

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Former good article nominee Physical attractiveness was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
July 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed


"The effects of oral contraception on physical attractiveness"[edit]

Hhammam, the "The effects of oral contraception on physical attractiveness" section you added is problematic per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) (WP:MEDRS). That is why I reverted you here and here. Do not keep restoring this material. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn I modified the section using secondary sources in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. I was wondering what can be done to improve the section further in order to remain in the article? Hhammam (talk) 12:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Hhammam, the addition still looked somewhat problematic, which is why I reverted it. There is also the matter of WP:Due weight. It would have been better had you discussed the matter here on the talk page before simply re-adding all that material. Pinging Jytdog for his opinion on the material and on what should be salvaged from it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

content[edit]

The effects of oral contraception on physical attractiveness
Masculinity

One aspect of physical attraction that oral contraception can affect is female’s attraction to masculine males. For example, women that are not using hormonal contraception are more likely to prefer a masculine face, body shape and voice during the fertile phase of their menstrual cycle. However, women taking the contraceptive pill do not experience the same peak in the middle of their cycle[1][2][3]. This reduced preference for masculine partners has been shown by Little, Burris, Petrie, Jones and Roberts (2013)[4] who found that the partners of women using hormonal contraceptive were rated less masculine than those who did not use oral contraception

Masculine facial traits are cues of genetic and fitness benefits. For example, Masculine-faced men are healthier, stronger and more dominant. They also pursue more short term than long-term relationships, indicating little investment. It has been suggested that the weaker preference for masculine faces and voices seen in women using contraceptives is due to the raised progesterone levels, which are similar to that of pregnancy where good genes are of low importance and a preference for more feminine, cooperative and investing males is more valuable[5]. An alternative theory is that women on the contraceptive pill do not experience the increased attention to masculine features around the time of ovulation that non-pill users do and so are less attentive to masculine features[4].

Increased progesterone levels during oral contraception use also increases women's attraction to healthy faces as progesterone can weaken the immune system and an increased attraction to healthy faces may be adaptive to reduce risk of infection.[6]

Smell

Scent can influence physical attractiveness, for example exposure to male pheromones increased the attractiveness of men to women[7]. Additionally, research has found that women preferred the odour of genetically dissimilar men to those who were genetically similar. They also prefer the odour of symmetrical males when in the fertile phase of their menstrual cycle. However, this is not seen in women using oral contraception who instead report having a higher preference for the scent of genetically similar males. It has been suggested that this may be because oral contraceptives produce a hormonal state similar to pregnancy, where a preference for genetically similar relatives is beneficial as they may provide support in raising your child[8][9].

Men’s perception of attractiveness

Oral contraception does not only affect women’s perception of attraction. It has been found that men rated women’s voices, and odours as more attractive around the fertile phase. For women using oral contraception this variation along the menstrual cycle was not seen[10][11]. Men in relationships also rated their partners as less attractive when using hormonal contraception than when they were regularly cycling. It has also been found that oral contraception can affect men’s perception of their own attractiveness, as men rated themselves as less attractive when their partner was using oral contraception than then their partners were regularly cycling[12]. It is thought that this is because men find women most attractive when progesterone levels are low, which corresponds to fertility, whereas oral contraception increases progesterone levels to that of pregnancy, indicating low risk of conception[13].

References

Posting here for easier consideration/discussion. Will read and comment in a bit. Jytdog (talk) 21:25, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

refs
  • none of these sources are adequately cited. None had PMIDs which made this a huge waste of my time to check.
  • Several of these links violate WP:ELNEVER. Source 7 is a deadlink; I think it is meant to be PMID 12195229?
  • Ref 8 (PMID 15653193) is the only review here that I could identify.

So, sourcing is unacceptable.

content
  • The content handles "evolutionary psychology" notions without nuance. This kind of thing is not OK: "Masculine facial traits are cues of genetic and fitness benefits. For example, Masculine-faced men are healthier, stronger and more dominant. " Not acceptable.

This is not useable. Jytdog (talk) 21:47, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for analyzing this situation, Jytdog. I'm so busy (off Wikipedia) these days that I barely have enough time for Wikipedia anymore. I have to go out of my way to make time for it, like now. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:41, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog this is a copy of the first contribution I made, my in my revised section I had removed most of these references and used reviews instead. Therefore, I had thought that these issues would no longer be a problem. Hhammam (talk) 06:55, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
You don't seem to understand what a "review" is. Sourcing was not the only problem. Jytdog (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

WP:Student editing[edit]

WP:Student editing has recently been going on at this article, and not all of it has been good. As seen above, I objected to material that Hhammam added. I'm not stating that none of it should be added, but it does need tweaking.

Hhammam, Psuneh, and R.g.rooney25, when experienced Wikipedians object to your edits to this article, you are supposed to take the time to discuss the matter at the article talk page, not immediately revert or assume you know what the problem is and restore the material. When Izno reverted here, for example, none of you addressed the matter here on the talk page. Do read what WP:Student editing states about working with experienced Wikipedians. This article is big enough as it is, so WP:SIZE is something to consider, and I feel that a lot of what is being added is overkill or WP:Undue weight. Noting evolutionary perspectives is fine, but going overboard with it is another thing. And the recently added Sexual ornamentation subsection in the Female physical attractiveness section addresses the breasts and buttocks, which already have subsections in that section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

From what I could tell, the immediate edit after mine fixed the format; I think the editor who I reverted had copy-pasted incorrectly from sandbox (perhaps assuming something about VE which was not true). In general, the article needs some massaging--while I'm not sure WEIGHT isn't being observed, the format of the article probably isn't the best shape for it to take. --Izno (talk) 22:00, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Flyer22 Reborn I was unaware there was an issue with my addition on the evolutionary perspective of youthfulness. Much of the information written is descriptive, rather than explanatory, in this section and so I assumed this would be a good addition. The fact that I received no complaints or comments when I mentioned I would be making the addition also led me to believe this was acceptable. It would therefore have been better if this was discussed before my latest addition was reverted back to my February addition. This is because I have refined the writing much more and so, of course, would rather have this visible than the previous piece. If this is too heavily evolutionary, I'm sure it can be shortened. I will therefore add the latest paragraphs again and wait to see/discuss the changes. (Psuneh (talk) 00:45, 8 May 2016 (UTC))
You didn't change your content an jot. You added it right back. That is edit warring. Jytdog (talk) 01:15, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Jytdod Yes, the content had been changed and developed substantially from my earlier inclusion (Feb 2016) which has once again been placed back in the article. Yes, I added it back due to the aforementioned reason, however, I will just leave it at that. (Psuneh (talk) 05:41, 8 May 2016 (UTC))
I'm looking at the article History and your contribution history. May 4 just into May 5 you made this edit, which Flyer reverted most of on May 5. You tweaked the citations in your sandbox on May 5 and added the whole thing right back on May 8. Flyers' comments above weren't about the citations, now were they. Jytdog (talk) 05:53, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Jytdog Yes, reverted most of it back to my original contribution. It is the difference between my original contribution and latest contribution (May 4/5th) that I was referring to. No, the comments were clearly about the depth of the evolutionary perspective which is why I said that the minimal content which did remain could still come from my latest contribution instead. However, as said, I will leave it as is. (Psuneh (talk) 06:11, 8 May 2016 (UTC))

pictures of guys[edit]

In order to remain neutral, I think it's important that this article also feature at least one photo or representation of male attractiveness. It currently has 11 pictures of female attractiveness. I don't know much about Wikipedia so suggestions welcome. 70.60.230.215 (talk) 00:21, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

No objections here. anything you find here should be fine to use.Jytdog (talk) 02:36, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, this was brought up before: Talk:Physical attractiveness/Archive 4#Male Beauty. One reason that so many pictures of women have been in the article might be because the male editors had more interest in female beauty. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I also noticed this. There should be one in the lead as well.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:49, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Done. See here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Alot of ugly people are super intelligent[edit]

I removed the theory that good looking people are intelligent. Most nobel prize winners are ugly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.50.217 (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

You need to have a source about that. The List of Nobel laureates in Literature does not include supermodels, but I see among them decently-looking people like Selma Lagerlöf, Grazia Deledda, and Sigrid Undset. Dimadick (talk) 08:25, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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IP, what you were reverted on is not stating that good-looking people are automatically intelligent. It's speaking of the perception more than anything. And in any case, there is the "dumb blonde" perception for some physically attractive women with blond hair. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I will state that the author behind the source, Satoshi Kanazawa, is quite controversial, though. In cases like these, it's best to look into his work and see how it holds up to the general literature. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

A person who is ugly can have a completely symmetrical body[edit]

A person who is ugly can have a completely symmetrical body — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.50.217 (talk) 18:57, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Primary source studies[edit]

Ephert, adding primary source after primary source study is not the way to build Wikipedia articles. I think I've told you this before. Look for WP:Secondary sources instead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:58, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The WP:NOR article currently says, "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." The physical attractiveness article in its current state is not only based on primary sources, so the first part of the guideline about not basing whole articles on primary sources does not seem like it applies here. The second part of the guideline says to be cautious about basing large passages on primary sources, and I am going to assume that is what you are talking about. I am also going to assume that you are talking about my most recent contributions which was a citation about Brazilian ideas of attractiveness in this edit and a citation about Luo ideas of attractiveness in this edit. Unfortunately, the WP:NOR article in its current state does not seem to explain what the word "cautious" entails in that specific instance of its guideline. I do not know, but I guess that the word "cautious" as used in that instance of the guideline means Wikipedia editors have to be cautious when citing primary sources that make extraordinary claims and Wikipedia editors have to be cautious that the primary sources being cited are reliable. The citation about Brazil claimed that they liked women with big butts in Brazil, and the citation about the Luo claimed that the Luo liked women with big butts too, and I do not think that either of these claims are extraordinary. The primary sources about the Luo people and the Brazilian people appear to be reliable. The guy who wrote the book for the Brazilian claim is Don Kulick, and he's a professor of anthropology. One of the authors of the Luo claim is a professor in the Department of Literary Studies at Maseno University in Kenya as stated in the first page of the academic journal article which was cited, so you have a professor at a Kenyan university making claims about how the people who live in his area (the Luo people) think after analyzing subject matter relevant to his or her field of study (music of the Luo people) in an academic journal article. Yes, they are both primary sources, but using primary sources is allowed, and they do not appear to be making extraordinary claims, and they appear to be reliable sources for the claims that they are making.--Ephert (talk) 06:07, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Flyer22, primary sources should be avoided as much as possible. Because we cannot necessarily judge correctly whether a professor in Luo music is a reliable source for claims about physical preferences. This kind of stuff very quickly becomes synthesis or at least invites the reader to do the synthesis for us.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Ephert, the WP:Primary sources policy is clear that we should generally avoid primary sources. Rather, we should use them sparingly unless using them is necessary. You rely too heavily on them. I'm saying that you should rely more heavily on secondary sources. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
If you look at the secondary sources part of the policy, it states, "Policy: Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:51, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
The university professor from the Department of Literary Studies at the Kenyan university in the academic journal article which was cited must have read song lyrics and/or some other type of literature which served as his or her primary sources. Then, the university professor at the Kenyan university must have made his or her "interpretive" claim that the Luo people liked women with big butts, so the professor appears to actually be a secondary source who made an "interpretive" claim based on primary sources that he or she read. Therefore, it seems to be okay to include the "interpretive" claim attributed to the Kenyan university source, because the "interpretive" claim being made in that source appears to have been made based on his or her interpretation of primary sources.--Ephert (talk) 07:37, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
The professor is a primary source for her own interpretation of those lyrics, and a secondary source for the contents of the songs/texts. We are not writing about the content of the songs/texts here.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:37, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
A web page at Lafeyette College Library says, for the academic discipline of "Literature", possible primary sources include "contemporary review, interview, letter, manuscript, personal account, published work", and the web page says that its list which includes the list specific to literature is an "incomplete list of things that might be considered primary sources". Judging by its list for the academic discipline of literature, it appears to be that things that were written down in the case of "letter" or things that were said in the case of "interview" are considered fair game in the academic discipline of literature. Although song lyrics were not specifically listed in the library's list as being possible primary sources for the academic discipline of literature, the range of primary sources in the academic discipline of literature seems very broad, seemingly encompassing things that were written or spoken and probably encompassing song lyrics too. The academic journal article from the Kenyan university must have passed peer review to be published in an academic journal article, so other literary studies academic people must have viewed song lyrics as acceptable primary sources to make the interpretive claims that the professor and his or her co-author made.--Ephert (talk) 08:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
That a source is peer reviewed does not mean that it is not a primary source for its own analytical claims. The article is not about physical attractiveness but about song lyrics, YOU are the one who is interpreting the article to be relevant for this topic. I think that is problematic. Unless you can find a secondary source that cites the article by Magak and Okombo I don't think it belongs in this article at all.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:09, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
I have removed the Luo article and also Kulick's study which is not about physical attractiveness in Brazil but about the lives of travestis. A book that actually is about concepts of physical attractiveness in Brazil is the ethnography Pretty Modern by Alexander Edmonds.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:12, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
User:Maunus said, at 09:10 on 12/2/2016, in this edit, that "The article is not about physical attractiveness but about song lyrics, YOU are the one who is interpreting the article to be relevant for this topic." I can see how someone could easily misinterpret Maunus's statement here to mean that Maunus is claiming that Magak & Okombo (2014) article did not make statements about what Luo people find physically attractive when Maunus must have meant by his or her phrase "not about physical attractiveness" that the article was not only an article about physical attractiveness. I believe that this is the correct interpretation of Maunus's words, since Maunus later said, at 09:14 on 12/2/2016, in this edit,"I think Ephert is very clearly conducting original research by extracting information about physical attractiveness in different cultures from texts that are not about physical attractiveness but only mention local concepts of physical attractiveness in passing while discussing other topics." which is a statement that indicates that Maunus is making a distinction between texts that "only mention" a concept and texts that are "about" a concept. I would just like to make this clarification about a meaning which I do not think is readily apparent, so other people will not confuse Maunus's meaning in his or her statement here to mean something other than what he or she intended.--Ephert (talk) 04:52, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
  • I think Ephert is very clearly conducting original research by extracting information about physical attractiveness in different cultures from texts that are not about physical attractiveness but only mention local concepts of physical attractiveness in passing while discussing other topics. This is not a proper way of writing wikipedia articles.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:14, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Travesti: sex, gender, and culture among Brazilian transgendered prostitutes
a 1998 book by Don Kulick, Page 70

in exasperation at a travesti who had marked little xs with eyebrow pen–
cil on at least twenty different parts of her body where she wanted a
touch-up. The bombadeira tried to inject silicone into these parts, but
the travesti already had so much silicone in her body that no more would
go in. "Bicha," the bombadeira finally cried out, "stop this. Women don't
have absolutely smooth bodies. Nobody has an absolutely blemish-free
body."

After the talk reaffirming that "one always has to do a little touching
up," the conversation moves on to silicone injections in the breasts. Keila
is typical among travestis in that she has a number of liters of silicone in
her lower body, but none as yet in her breasts. The vast majority of tra-
vestis over twenty years of age have some silicone in their bodies, in
amounts ranging from a few glasses (travestis measure silicone in liters
and water glasses [copos], six of which make up a liter) to up to twenty
liters. Most have between two and and five liters. The majority of travestis
who have silicone, however, have it in their buttocks, hips, knees, and in-
ner thighs, not in their breasts.10 This strategic placement of silicone is
in direct deference to Brazilian aesthetic ideals.

Throughout Brazil, the hallmark of feminine beauty is not first and
foremost large breasts, as it tends to be in North America and Europe.
Instead, the symbol and essence of feminine allure are fleshy thighs, ex-
pansive hips, and a prominent, teardrop-shaped bunda (buttocks). The
salience of the bunda in Brazilian culture is evident to even the most ca-
sual visitor to the country. The conspicuous display of bundas during the
annual Carnival celebrations is well known. But even during the rest of
the year, bundas are omnipresent. They are displayed with great flair at
beaches, where the tiny bathing-suit bottoms known throughout the
country as fio dental (dental floss) cover women's genitals but nothings else.
Many young women, especially when they go out to dance in the
evenings — but even when they are relaxing during the day — are careful
to arrange their shorts or skirt so that the bottom of their bunda is clearly
visible. A gesture used by men throughout the country to express a
desirable female body is to cup both hands at waist level, spread the
fingers, and bounce the hands lightly up and down, as though jiggling
the bottom of a bunda. Television commercials for virtually anything, it
seems usually manage to include at least one shot of a woman's bunda.
Viewers watching any female entertainer performing on television will
be treated to repeated shots of her bunda — usually filmed from knee
level, so one actually looks up her (inevitably short) dress. The credits of
a popular television novela shown in the afternoon in 1996 begin and end
with a shot from behind of a woman in tiny shorts bending over at the

User:Maunus said, in this edit, "I think Ephert is very clearly conducting original research by extracting information about physical attractiveness in different cultures from texts that are not about physical attractiveness but only mention local concepts of physical attractiveness in passing while discussing other topics." I do not see how what Maunus talked about in his or her quote in the previous sentence is an example of original research. Maybe Maunus can show me where such a thing is addressed in the WP:OR policy. To clarify what Maunus is talking about, Maunus is talking about me citing page 70 of Don Kulick's book Travesti: sex, gender, and culture among Brazilian transgendered prostitutes (1998), and saying since Travesti is a book about travestis and not about physical attractiveness in particular when Don Kulick talked about physical attractiveness ideals in Brazil it is inadmissible even though Don Kulick would be considered a reliable source for that information as it is within his field of research. I'll put forth an analogy in case people do not understand. It is like saying that a cultural anthropology professor who did research about prostitutes in ancient China and who wrote a book about prostitutes in ancient China could not have a page within his or her book cited for a statement about the ancient Chinese ideal of small feet known about through evidence of footbinding and other possibly textual evidence, since the main topic of his or her book is about prostitutes in ancient China and not the ancient Chinese ideal of small feet in particular even though the ancient Chinese ideal of small feet would be a topic that would be within his or her field of research. I think that closest policy I know of that sounds similar to what Maunus is saying is the policy about not being allowed to take quotes of out context to change their meaning even though that's completely different. However, I think that other people might read what User:Maunus said and think that he or she is referring to said policy about misrepresenting sources. To address this foreseeable misunderstanding, I have written down page 70 of Don Kulick's book Travesti in a box above. In the copy of page 70 above, I have highlighted the most relevant parts in yellow. These parts that are highlighted in yellow were not highlighted in yellow in the original text. A person can compare the original text of page 70 in the box above and the part I wrote which was cited to the original text in this edit to see that I did not misrepresent the source.--Ephert (talk) 05:41, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
It is a kind of synthesis and Original Research to find passing mentions in books that are now specifically about x topic to write about x. It is kind of the equivalent of doing a survey of primary sources. Kulick is not writing about physical attrativeness but is writing n ethnographic study of trasvesti life. He is not an expert in concepts of physical attractiveness in brazil, and cannot be expected to necessarily represent the mainstream view on that. So if we want to write about physical attractiveness in brazil we should use sources about physical attractiveness in Brazil (and there are many). I agree that it is not a clear cut violation of OR, but I think it is clearly not the way we write good articles in wikipedia to use sources in the way you are doing.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

stereotype and assumptions[edit]

Where to begin...

  • Men:
  1. 'Flat abdomen' There's plenty of women who are attracted to chubby men with big bellies, finding it both visually pleasant and arousing, especially those with preference for older men
  2. 'Genitalia' No mention of the scrotum
  3. 'Hairiness' Again, plenty of women who find men with hair visually pleasant and arousing... girls, I mean shaved men, are a product of society in the several last decades
  • Women:
  1. 'Genitalia' Heterosexual/bisexual men being aroused by women's genitalia isn't the same as finding it visually attractive, in fact many men don't find vulva aesthetically appealing, likely why some societies cut off the labia to make it nicer looking
  2. 'Breasts' Many women regardless of self-identified orientation also find breasts of other women attractive, not sure why this is so often attributed to men alone, heterosexual women find breasts attractive aesthetically, that's not the same as liking them sexually
  3. 'Buttocks' Why aren't they mentioned as part of Men's physical attractiveness? Many women like buttocks
  4. 'Nose' Likewise, nice nose is very attractive on a man, ask a heterosexual woman
  5. 'Eyes' Likewise, eyes are on the top of the list of what women attracts to men

89.173.151.168 (talk) 01:56, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

We should go by what the WP:Reliable sources state with WP:Due weight. These sources are usually talking about what people are typically attracted to. For example, typically, men are sexually attracted to slender women as opposed to chubby or overweight women. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:46, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Also, as noted before on this talk page, most of the research in this area is heteronormative. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Manga image of young girl[edit]

I removed the image of "Wikipe-tan" but an IP editor reverted me twice and suggested I take it to the talk page, so I am doing so.

I want to remove this image because:

  1. It is highly inappropriate for Wikipedia to use an image of a fictional child - or an image that looks like it is depicting a child, at any rate - to illustrate physical attractiveness. We can of course illustrate the concept of neotenous facial features on adults - a concept that is discussed already in the text - without using images of children.
  2. One of the sources cited in the image caption is a blog, which is not a reliable source.
  3. The other source cited, a book of cultural criticism about anime films, does not actually verify the claims made in the caption - there is no mention of "neoteny", "large eyes" etc. in the entire book (which is available online as a PDF, so I was able to search for those exact phrases in it).
  4. The warning that appears when anyone edits the article states that images of people must have reliable sources to indicate they have been notably referred to as physically attractive. But the caption does not even make this claim about this specific image. It is pure WP:SYNTH.

In summary, both this image and its caption should removed due to being inappropriate, WP:OR and in particular WP:SYNTH.--greenrd (talk) 11:37, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree - in particular the attractiveness of "neoteny" is only partly, if at all, sexual, which is what this article is mainly about. Hence puppies, kittens, and other animal favourites. Johnbod (talk) 12:20, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
I disagree.. Your primary argument is it isn't appropriate for the article which is highly up for debate and two people do not a consesnsus make. Your other two complaints stand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fangrim (talkcontribs) 02:33, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Disagree. This is not an image of a young girl. This is an image of wikipe-tan. Person who removed this is batshit crazy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipe-tan More, the image is there to describe a category of physical attractiveness. 2001:558:6025:75:6168:955F:54A1:6CB9 (talk) 06:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

No personal attacks please. Also, Wikipe-tan is a young girl, and appears to be under 18 in this image.--greenrd (talk) 08:11, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
She is not a young girl, she's a drawing. 206.41.25.114 (talk) 21:45, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
... of a young girl. Marteau (talk) 22:20, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
You can't be serious. That most certainly is a representation of a young girl and its usage as an example of features men desire is completely inappropriate and unsourced. Marteau (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Jimbo had it right in 2007. Just no. [1] --DHeyward (talk) 22:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

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I don't see how that image improves the article. And if its caption is WP:OR, it certainly should stay removed. Ephert, did you add that image, like you added most of the other images? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: I looked through previous versions of this article to try to find the first instance of that image of Wikipe-tan, and I think that I tracked down the first instance of that image. I think that User:Anddme was the editor who first added it to this article in this edit on December 16, 2015. I added a different anime image about a bishōnen in this edit on May 1, 2011, and I used The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Japanese Culture as a reference for the inclusion of a drawing of a bishōnen for that edit on May 1, 2011. The quote located on page 45 in The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Japanese Culture which is relevant for the inclusion of a bishōnen drawing is, "Literally 'beautiful boys', bishōnen refers most directly to a style of depiction of male characters in manga for adolescent girls. Bishōnen are uniformly svelte, with enormous eyes and features recognisably male, but nearly as delicate and beautiful as those of the depiction of female characters. Bishōnen narratives often involve a homo-erotic romance between these beautiful young men." I think you may be recalling this other anime image that I added, because they are both anime images.--Ephert (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining. I wasn't recalling anything, though. My memory is usually very good, but I wasn't sure who added that image. I asked if you added it because you've added most of the images and image captions in this article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

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This article is a nightmare[edit]

There is no solution to fixing this article except totally tearing it down and building it up from scratch. It is an absolute mess: politically, socially, structurally, scientifically.Nmwe5j58 (talk) 22:28, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Nmwe5j58, I see that you are advocating for WP:TNT. You have to give guideline or policy-based reasons for your argument, though. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2017 (UTC)