Talk:Pierogi

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Proposed merger[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is consensus to merge Varenyky into Pierogi. The majority opinion cited that they are the same dish and sources were provided to show this. AlbinoFerret 20:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Pierogi and varenyky. Can you tell which are which?

I propose that Varenyky be merged into Pierogi. Reason: these are the same dish (pockets of unleavened dough wrapped around a sweet or savory filling into crescent-shaped dumplings and cooked in boiling water), which just happens to be called different names in different languages. If there's a difference between the two, both articles fail to explain the distinction. Pierogi seem to be much more commonly used in English than varenyky (see this Ngram) so I propose the merger to be this way, not the other. I know from previous discussions that there has been some confusion caused by the fact that Russian and Ukrainian languages have words like Pirog and Pirozhki that sound similar to Polish pierogi, but refer to different dishes. Wikipedia should clarify rather than add to the confusion, and having separate articles for one dish thing doesn't help. I'm also aware that the world of filled dumplings is a very diverse one. I'm not proposing to merge Pierogi with Kreplach, Momo, Khinkali or Empanada, because all of these are sufficiently distinct. But there doesn't seem to be any difference between pierogi and varenyky whatsoever. Should anyone oppose the merger, I hope they will explain what the difference is (and cite reliable sources). — Kpalion(talk) 19:35, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Support merger as nominator. — Kpalion(talk) 19:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Thanks for all the research!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 9, 2015; 20:05 (UTC)
  • Support merger although extra work would have to be performed regarding the word-for-word repetitions in Preparation and serving. The giant monument to "pyrohy" needs to be moved to Canada where it belongs. Would you be willing to do that? Poeticbent talk 20:48, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes, merger will definitely have to be followed by cleanup. I'm working on Borscht now, but this is the next big topic I'd like to tackle. — Kpalion(talk) 21:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Needs clarification. Although these are the same things in their origin, the current Polish and Ukrainian traditions show some deviations. Some points which I would like to clarify first:
    • These images (from commons:Category:Pierogi) suggest, that pierogi may also be baked, not only boiled. Is it correct? In contrast, in Ukraine and Russia, there is a clear distinction between boiled varenyky and baked pirozhki/pirogi. If the Polish term has a wider scope, how would you draw the border without merging pirozhki and pirog into the same article (which would definitely be too much)?
    • In Ukraine and Russia there is also a clear distinction between varenyky and smaller pelmeni which are filled with raw (not pre-cooked) meat. What about Poland? Are such small dumplings like pelmeni not produced at all? Or are they also called pierogi? If the latter is true, how would you separate the article from pelmeni?
    • In addition, if you merge both articles, you will have to care about the regional differences. E.g. both nations treat it as their "national dish" including specific references in literature (see "Cultural references" section in varenyky). I believe one cannot replace the word "varenyky" with "pierogi" in this section. So how would you deal with that? I can only image that you would keep both names throughout the article and alternate between them. --Off-shell (talk) 23:40, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
      Excellent points, Off-shell! I would say that in Poland, the word "pierogi" without any further qualifiers refers to filled dumplings that are boiled and then, optionally, sautéed. There exist recipes for deep-fried pierogi and yeast-raised baked pierogi, but they are usually treated as modifications of the basic recipe. See this restaurant menu for a good example: it specializes in the baked pierogi (pierogi z pieca), but also serves boiled pierogi, which are labeled "classic" (pierogi klasyczne gotowane). In the article, I would first describe the most common type of pierogi (that is, boiled) and then describe the various modifications, such as fried or baked, in the "Varieties" section. This is the approach I also used rewriting Borscht; the first major section describes the most common kind of borscht (hot, hearty, beet-based and served with sour cream) and then comes a list of varieties (some of them cold, clear, without beets or without cream).
      As for meat-filled pierogi, all recipes I've seen call for precooked meat, so that may be one way they differ from pelmeni. Anoter difference seems to be the shape. In most pictures of pelmeni I've seen, they're smaller and shaped more like tortellini or Polish uszka (but uszka are usually filled with mushrooms, not meat). Finally, pierogi are certainly of Slavic origin, wheareas pelmeni, at least according to our poorly-sourced article about them, come from the Uralic peoples of Siberia.
      Finally, merging does not mean that we can only use one name throughout the article. Of course, when describing regional or national variants and cultural significance of the dish, we should be using whatever name is most appropriate in the given context. All names and their etymologies should be explained in the first section of the article. — Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
      • I will say that as a big fan of Polish pierogi, I have never seen any of the foods from the pictures shown. Of course they must exist, but they seem like minor variations, to be discussed in a separate section on regional/marketing variations. I'll also suggest that if I, a Pole and fan of pierogi, have never seen them, that others (Ukrainians, etc.) may also be unaware that their words for pierogi may be (mis)used in such a fashion in some regions/specialized restaurants/etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Needs clarification - I agree with Off-shell as to this proposal being oversimplified. While I'm aware that you're all men who have only ever eaten hours of work in a matter of seconds, I've made varenyki (at home), ruskie pierogi (with Polish friends... and they're boiled exclusively, never baked... er, the pierogi, of course!), and pelmeni (with Russian friends). Note that they were most commonly known as ruskie (Rus'-come-Ukrainian allusion to being a dish from the Rus' peoples). In fact, the morphology is connected by the Old Eastern Slavic word 'pyr'/'pir' pertaining to a pagan feast (and connected to pyre): hence pirog, pirozhki (which are often deep-fried, not only baked), etc. How do you propose to address the complexity of the morphology, cultural/regional significance based on a simplistic check as to which variant of the food is used per WP:COMMONNAME in the Anglophone world? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:11, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
    Iryna, as you used to make both varenyky and pierogi, would you say they were:
    • exactly same thing,
    • slightly different variants of the same basic recipe, or
    • completely different things?
    I'm afraid we can't cite your personal experience as a source in the article, but I think we can make use of it in this discussion. — Kpalion(talk) 07:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
As I've noted, I'm not opposing the use of 'pierogi' for the WP:TITLE, I'm raising questions about how the lead and content should be handled. On my own behalf, I could identify which were which as the pierogi were 'pinched' together using a commercially available mould that no self-respecting Polish or Ukrainian woman would use as it would demonstrate her laziness because it makes for harder dough, so the ones on the right are a commercial product. Ultimately, I have no objection to the use of 'pierogi' for the title as they are exactly the same thing. Speaking for Australia, in commercial terms (literally), both forms of the name are used, but it's understood to be the same product once it's explained (that is, I couldn't even begin to count how many times non-Slavs have asked me whether they're what they'd eaten and wanted to purchase, but the name of the product wasn't the same as the name they'd been introduced to it as being). What concerns me most is the confusion between 'pierogi' and 'pierog'/'pirozhki' which are entirely different foods: rich, yeast leavened dough with very different fillings that are baked or deep-fried as opposed to a thin, flour and water dough with different traditional fillings (potato and cottage cheese being the popularly associated standard, and fresh berry fillings as the dessert variety).
My concern, then, is that, for the Anglosphere, the use of the 'pierog' as the root name is confusing. Certainly, the article should be merged as we are, to all intents and purposes, describing virtually exactly the same foodstuff, therefore I "Support" the merge. How best to do it, however, needs to be addressed before the merge bearing the potential confusion due to the root Slavic morphology in mind. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, so I'm thinking about something along these lines (see boxed text below). What do you think? — Kpalion(talk) 13:11, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Pierogi or pirogi (pronounced /pɪˈroʊgi/, pi-roh-ghee), also known as varenyky, are filled dumplings of East European origin, typical for Polish and Ukrainian cuisines. They are made by wrapping pockets of unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking in boiling water. They should not be confused with a pirog or pirozhki, which are yeast-raised pies or pastries with various fillings. [...]

Etymology
The English word pierogi (plural: pierogi, pierogies or pierogis) comes from Polish pierogi [pʲɛˈrɔgʲi], which is the plural from of pieróg [ˈpʲɛruk], a generic term for filled dumplings of various kinds. It derives from Old East Slavic пиръ (pirŭ) 'feast'. Its cognates include Russian пирог (pirog) 'pie' and пирожки (pirozhki) 'baked pastries'. Varenyky comes from Ukrainian вареники (varenyky), the plural form of вареник (varenyk), which derives from Ukrainian вар (var) 'boiling liquid', indicating boiling as the primary cooking method for this kind of dumplings.

It looks like several other dumplings from the neighbouring regions are in fact also the same thing. This needs also clarification. Can they be ignored?

--Off-shell (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I didn't want to propose more than one merger at a time, but yes, I believe we should at the very least consider (in a separate discussion) merging Colțunași with Kalduny. — Kpalion(talk) 21:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if Colțunași belong to Kalduny (despite common etymology) or here, but OK, this needs a separate discussion anyway. I just want to determine a "strategy" on how to deal with the numerous varieties found in the neigbouring countries. So far, when every national variety had its own page, they all were called "similar dishes". This is a rather nebulous characterisation, as some jiaozi are also "similar". Those which are "more similar than the others" have separate paragraphs on this page. Now, we are going to claim that pierogi and varenyky are not "similar" but "the same thing", while e.g. pelmeni are definitely not the same. So the question is: Do we call colțunași, derelye, schlutzkrapfen "same things" or "similar things"? This is in fact important, because e.g. this will influence the lede. The first sentence in your proposal ends with "typical for Polish and Ukrainian cuisines". However, if those other varieties are "the same thing", this sentence must include all respective countries.
I suppose, before solving this issue we may consider them "similar" but not "the same". However, there are other countries which surely have "the same thing", namely Lithuania (virtiniai), Russia (vareniki) and Slovakia (bryndzové pirohy). Russia adopted it from Ukraine in the 19th or 20th century and it is considered a Ukrainian dish in Russian cookbooks. I don't know its "standing" in Lithuania and Slovakia. So I would suggest something like the lede of Varenyky, i.e. mentioning that 1) the dish is common in ... countries and 2) it is most commonly associated with Polish and Ukrainian cuisines where it is considered a national dish. (One can of course also swap the sentences 1 and 2). --Off-shell (talk) 22:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm OK with this approach to writing the lede. As for a general strategy, I suppose that, because this is Wikipedia, a bottom-up approach of individual merger discussions will be more effective than trying to impose overarching rules from above. But I agree that the current state where we have a multitude of articles about "similar" but differently named dishes creates two problems:
  1. articles that are centered on the name rather than substance, which might be a good approach in a dictionary, but not in an encyclopedia (in other words, we should say, "let's write an article about these boiled filled dumplings of unleavened dough and put it under the most common English name they have", and not "let's write an article about all the various things than can be called pierogi (in Polish, that would even include the bicorne)");
  2. many short, even stubby, articles about a subject that would be better treated on a single page, allowing a discussion of all the names, commonalities and differences in one place. — Kpalion(talk) 08:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
And here's a new lede proposal:

Pierogi or pirogi (pronounced /pɪˈroʊgi/, pi-roh-ghee), also known as varenyky, are filled dumplings of East European origin. They are made by wrapping pockets of unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking in boiling water. These dumplings are popular in various Slavic (Polish, Russian, Slovak, Ukrainian), Baltic (Latvian, Lithuanian) and other cuisines where they are know under various local names. Pierogi and varenyky are especially associated with Poland and Ukraine where they are considered national dishes. They should not be confused with a pirog or pirozhki, which are yeast-raised pies or pastries with various fillings. [...]

  • Support. After the above issues were clarified, I support the proposal. The above proposal for the introduction should make it work. --Off-shell (talk) 20:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose while this might be logical (I am not saying it is) if we were a professional encyclopedia with a board and specialists who made final judgment calls; redirecting varenyky here will have the sole effect of causing edit wars and repeated requests to change the name of the article with almost no actual benefit to the reader whatsoever. The combined article would end up needing a minimum of two etymology sections, fighting over which images to retain, and so forth. Far more trouble would ensue than any possible benefit. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
    I think the benefit to the reader would be that they are not led to believe that pierogi and varenyky are two different dishes when in fact they're just two names for the same thing. Do you really think we should compromise Wikipedia's quality just to pre-emptively appease edit-warmongers? — Kpalion(talk) 21:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
Do you really think I am going to accept your insincere, condescending, rhetorical nonsense as worth responding to in good faith? μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Frankly speaking, μηδείς, I see nothing insincere in Kpalion's question and I don't think it's nonsense. If merging means an increase in quality, then we should consider it, except the gain is really marginal. Here we have a case, where Western Ukrainians call these dumpling pyrohy, and Canadian Ukrainians, who mostly descend from Western Ukrainian, call it this way. Ukrainians themselves admit that varenyky and pyrohy are the same thing. Besides, there are cases where having different names for the same thing in one article does not cause trouble, e.g. kashk/qurut. --Off-shell (talk) 19:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Frankly speaking, do you really believe I should even read hostile comments that start "frankly speaking" or "do you really believe"? Do you understand my point? The focus should be on the issue, and the fact that this thread was started with an invitation solely to people who wanted to a merger, but ignored people like Pkravchenko who opposed one is highly suspicious, and smacks of recruitment. Why hasn't every user on this page been pung by the OP? μηδείς (talk) 04:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
I was not aware of any invitations. I only saw the banners on top of the articles Pierogi and Varenyky. I never thought that dumplings may become a political issue worth building political factions (are there Big-Endias and Little-Endians here?:)). In fact, the main benefit which I saw in the proposed merger is due to the developments in North America where the term pierogi dominates and where it also seems to be used by Canadian Ukrainians for labelling their products. I suppose the article is read mainly by people who eat pierogi and want to learn about them. These people will only read about the Polish cultural background of the dish and probably completely miss its Ukrainian background. Such limited knowledge often results in some sort of intercultural misunderstanding, like I think half of the Western world believe that Russians say "Na zdorovye" for toasting. But I can also live with keeping the two separate pages provided all such articles (including Colțunași and whatever else) are written consistently. May be, one indeed needs a separate overview article on "Crescent-shaped CEE dumplings". --Off-shell (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I really don't like where this is going, and am considering withdrawing my support from this proposal. I don't think this is working out and I don't want any more grief.
Merriam-Webster (direct quote):
  • varenyky - The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search bar above.
  • pierogi - a case of dough filled with a savory filling (as of meat, cheese, or vegetables) and cooked by boiling and then panfrying.[1]
Wikipedia http://stats.grok.se/ daily count:
  • Varenyky - 90 hits on average
  • Pierogi - 600 hits on average
Good enough. Poeticbent talk 19:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm now confused as to which version is being "support"ed: the first or second rendition by Kpalion. As regards "Nobody presented any sources that varenyky are not just another name for pierogi" seems to imply a WP:POV that varenyki are just another name for explicitly 'Polish' pierogi. On the contrary, if you take a look at the google examples I provided earlier on in the merger proposal, you'll find that "Ruskie pierogi" is solidly supported by Polish language sources. That being the case, I could just as easily pose the query as to what RS point to the fact that "pierogi" aren't just another name for "varenyki". Sources, please? The second proposal by Kpalion which takes the onus off RS proof (which you're not going to find for any of these conventions) that this particular food is somehow 'owned' by any particular ethnic group involved is the version I would support as the Polish and Ukrainian versions are the same dish. The only way to avoid 'ownership' issues for regional dishes is to avoid arguments which can't be reliably sourced. As an aside, Off-shell, please allow me to qualify that Ukrainians from Western Ukraine use the name "varenyki" for the dish, not "pierogi". If you doubt me on this, I'm more than happy to provide RS for diasporic use in Canada (and elsewhere). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Ruskie pierogi means Ukrainian pierogi. I have read many times that Ukrainians don't know such dish. "Kozacka Chatka" in Poland sells pierogi, warieniki and pielmeni described as similar (but probably not identical). [2]Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
And I'll agree with Iryna's point, although I'll point out that Rusyn Americans traditionally from what is now the Western Ukraine (Trans-Carpathia) do not call these items varenyky, they are called pyrohy. This suggestion strikes me as about as useful as merging the flags named at tricolor under Le Tricolore, given the Italian and Irish flags are similar to the FRench flag, and the word means the same thing. μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Rusyn is sometimes different than Western-Ukrainian.Xx236 (talk) 07:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, and while the standard political position in Ukraine has been to demote Rusysns to speakers of a dialect of Ukrainian (and suspected disloyalists backed by the Russians) they where under Polish and Austro-Hungarian hegemony since the middle ages. None of this is directly relevant to cuisine, but it shows the cultural and political divisions. There are so many other ill-advised mergers this proposed merger would justify, Bubble and squeak > leftovers, Kielbasa > Sausage that it's a non-starter. μηδείς (talk) 15:52, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Iryna, I'm sorry for the sloppy wording I used. Yes, pyrohy is a regional dialect term used not in the whole Western Ukraine but in some parts of it, mainly in Transcarpatia. Concerning the wording used by some commenters, I think "varenyky is another word for pierogi and pierogi is another word varenyky". I would not imply the origin of the dish in this statement, but would rather think that the term pierogi is native for the author of the sentence, or is more frequently used in English, as the above hit statistics shows. Now, concerning the second version of the lede, this is a modified version of the current Varenyky lede which is sourced. The current statement in Varenyky is based on the descriptions in the standard Soviet/Russian sources like Pokhlebkin, Kulinaria (1955) and many others, which call it a "Ukrainian dish", although you will find them in many places in Russia today. I suppose one can also find similar RS which call pierogi a "Polish dish". --Off-shell (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Gawd. We're now coming up against the obsticles we're all trying to avoid: national ownership of a cuisine!
In response to Xx236, Ukrainians don't know of a dish called Ruskie pierogi (AKA Ukrainian pierog) simply because that is not the nomenclature in Ukrainian: in Ukrainian, they're known as 'varenyki' as the native name. They are, however, to all intents and purposes, the same food. From my own hands-on experience, just compare the recipe/s and it's self-evident. They're both considered national dishes per ethnic group, and this would account for literally hundreds of years of cultural overlap.
Ruskie pierogi were (are ?) called Polish in Western Ukraine and lwowskie in Wrocław after the war:
http://smaker.pl/newsy-krotka-historia-pierogow-ruskich,1897857,a,.html
http://www.national-geographic.pl/traveler/artykuly/pokaz/ruskie-czyli-polskie/

Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

In response to Off-shell, my apologies if I came across as being curt about the issue. The fact is that we'd be hard-pressed to 'prove' any form of proprietorial ethnic ownership of this cuisine. This is where the exchange of cuisine for an area of Slavic peoples (just take a look at our DNA) was as natural as breathing (or spying on a neighbour through her kitchen window in order to find out the family 'secret' as to why her particular recipe tasted better than your own) comes into the picture. While I'm not proprietorial about my recipe for borscht or nalysnyki (AKA Blintz: another article in need of cleaning up), such 'secrets' were closely guarded by the lady of the house. The how and who are not as relevant as the 'where' aspect of the origin. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
The basic article is (or should be) Dumpling.Xx236 (talk) 12:14, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, the dumpling article already has a long entry for the various forms under discussion here. Personally, in comparison to the other entries for a generic form of filled dough of some form or another (and, in fact, many forms of dumplings from around the world have no filling, nor are they exclusively boiled), it seems a little on the protracted side as it stands. As with other entries from around the world, it's dependent on there being dedicated articles per WP:TITLE for the specific forms. Halušky are also dumplings, but they are not as distinctly as recognisable a regional Slavic cuisine as Polish pierogi/Ukrainian varenyky. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:20, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Support merger on the basis of USE ENGLISH - as a native Canadian English speaker (and perogy fan and maker) I can attest that this dish is almost always called perogies in Canada (or rarely pyrohy), home to both large UKR and PL diasporas, and we do not make any distinction with varenyky (because this word is not used in the variety of Ukrainian that made it here!). Remember also that WP catalogues concepts, not words. Two words for the same concept. --Kevlar (talkcontribs) 20:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose. Please look into the template {{dumplings}}. It has several dozens of similar dishes. I am sure it can be compressed into 3-4 basic articles, with endless discussions which name to pick. I say, let regional variations be. This has nothing to do with 'USE ENGLISH'. If there are similarities, people may read articles and compare. If there are differences, the same. If experts note differences/similiarities, we can cite them. Otherwise your discussions here are nothing but original research. wikipedia is not paper to try and squeeze everything as much as possible in smallest space, with high chance of WP:SYNTH. - üser:Altenmann >t 20:26, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
    But you have to distinguish between regional variation and one thing being called different names in different languages. Are Stuhl, chaise and krzesło, respectively, German, French and Polish varieties of chair? No, they're just words in these languages for the same general concept of chair. The same with pierogi and varenyky; they're just Polish and Ukrainian words for the same dish. — Kpalion(talk) 22:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
    • That's what sources are for. Please give an example of a culinary book which describes 'varenyky' but calls them 'pierogi'. Please notice that if it calls them "Ukrainian pierogi", then they are 'varenyky'. Please notice also hat if it does not call them "Ukainian", then how do you know that it is the same dish? Otherwise, by your logic, everything should be merged into the adricle "dumpling". Your example with chairs is inapplicable: we indeed do have varieties of chairs, but they do not depend on culture much. Whereas culinary is highly culture-dependent, and wikipedia has to reflect this. - üser:Altenmann >t 22:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

Let's start with dictionary definitions. Please note that what we should be concerned with is not what the words pierogi and varenyky mean in Polish or Ukrainian, but what they (as loanwords) mean in English.

Dictionary Pierogi Varenyky
Merriam-Webster A case of dough filled with a savory filling (as of meat, cheese, or vegetables) and cooked by boiling and then panfrying [3] (No entry) [4]
Random House Dictionary A small dough envelope filled with mashed potato, meat, cheese, or vegetables, crimped to seal the edge and then boiled or fried, typically served with sour cream or onions [5] (No entry) [6]
American Heritage Dictionary A semicircular dumpling with any of various fillings, such as finely chopped meat or vegetables, that is often sautéed after being boiled [7] (No entry) [8]
Canadian Oxford Dictionary (paywall) Variant of perogy, which defined as: a dough dumpling stuffed with potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc. [9] Dough dumplings stuffed with mashed potato, cheese, etc., boiled and then optionally fried, and usu. served with onions, sour cream, etc.; perogies [10]

As we can see, varenyky doesn't seem to be used much outside Canadian English, where the definition is identical to that of pierogi (in fact, the dictionary explicitly says these are synonyms). Searching in Google Books, we can also find a few books in English which mention both pierogi and varenyky. Several quotes follow:

I hope this is enough to show that while there are many different kinds of stuffed dumplings in the world, the words pierogi and varenyky refer to the same kind of stuffed dumplings: semicircular with crimped edges, whith various savory or sweet fillings, boiled and then optionally fried, served with sour cream or onions. — Kpalion(talk) 23:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

  • re: "doesn't seem to be used much outside Canadian English" - invalid argument. We have thousands of articles for words not used in English (you may recollect "naczelnik" vigorously defended by wikipedians of Polish origin from deletion). - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Whatever your English sources say, there is plenty of cultural specifics that warrant a separate article for a regional variation. - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
  • And how they are that different from ravioli you want to keep separate? If you think "square shape", then you are mistaken. There are square varenyky as well. - üser:Altenmann >t 17:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
  • BTW, DYK that what Poles call Russian pierohy, are known as varenyky Polish-style in Ukraine? - üser:Altenmann >t 17:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Nonsense. Poles don't call pierogi ruskie, "Russian pierohy". They call them "pierogi ruskie" because Poles speak Polish in Poland, not English. "Ruskie" translates from the Polish as "Ruthenian"... "Russian" translates back into Polish as "Rosyjskie", not "Ruskie". Do you see what I see? Poeticbent talk 19:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I got my languages mixed. But what I wanted to quip about is still even more valid: "Ruthenian" in this context is even closer historically to 'Ukrainian' than to 'Russian'. So, what Poles call 'Ruthenian Pierogi', the Ruthenians call "Polish Varenyky". - The irony is of the same kind as in the fact that what called Russian Mountains in America is called "American Mountains" (Amerikanskie gorki) in Russia. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
P.S. Rissian does translate in Polish as Ruski as well, because Russian Federation is not the only thing Russian and not all English writers are so nitpicking, unlike those 'moskali' haters who are unhappy with Muscovy usurping the heritage of Kievan Rus. - üser:Altenmann >t 15:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Altenmann, I believe I've done my homework, so it's your turn now to provide sources for the claim that "there is plenty of cultural specifics that warrant a separate article for a regional variation." And for square varenyky, too. — Kpalion(talk) 21:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't care that much. If ethnic Ukrainians ignore the subject (right now their major enemy is things Russian, not Polish), none of my business either. 15:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
P.S. Just out of my head, there are monuments to varenyky. IMO it counts towards WP:GNG of the subject, right? - üser:Altenmann >t 15:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
They are perfectly notable, but just happen to be better known in English as pierogi. Those monuments to varenyky that are labeled as such, are all located in Ukraine, so it's no wonder that they use the Ukrainian name. — Kpalion(talk) 16:07, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In Germany[edit]

Is there any reliable source about pierogi being known in Germany? Most of Germans never heard about it. Just search for Piroggen (the German word for it) in Google in general, and in Google Books in particular. All pages will refer to Polish pierogi and Russian pirogi or pirozhki. The German Wiki article de:Pirogge describes all these varieties together and tells that these are East European Teigtaschen ("dough cases") (and also Finnish, as they also include Karelian pirogs in the overview). The dish may have been known to Germans who lived (or live today) in Eastern Europe (former Baltic Germans, Germans in Poland etc.), but I find no traces of it in modern Germany. The most common German counterpart to pierogi is Maultaschen, which are made with spinach, but they are quite different from pierogi. If no reliable sources are found for the presence of pierogi in German cuisine, the reference to Germany should be removed from the article. --Off-shell (talk) 20:34, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Either you have refs to back up your wp:original research, or you don't. And, you don't. I suggest you do some more mouse-clicking on your own, before investing any more time in trying to convince anyone. This is like saying that the presence of Pierogi needs to be removed from all national cuisines which have a different name for it. Thanks, but no cigar. Germany has their own recipes for them, like Poland has recipes for the Ruthenian variety. Check it out:
  1. Pierogi Rezept - polnische Teigtaschen mit Füllung - Kuchen-hit.de
  2. Pierogi (polnische "Maultaschen") | Ein Kochmeister Rezept
  3. Piroggen (Polnische Teigtaschen) Rezept - Alle Rezepte
  4. Piroggen mit Fleisch (polnische Maultaschen) - Rezept
Poeticbent talk 21:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The name for pierogi in German is Piroggen. And they are known as an East European dish. You did not provide any link for a German recipe for pierogi nor any reliable source that they are widespread in Germany. I live since 20 years in Germany and have never seen pierogi/piroggen offered in any German restaurant, nor sold in a German food store. I only find them in Polish restaurants and Russian shops run by and for immigrants from Eastern Europe. Concerning your links:

1) All these pages call it explicitely "Polish". Where is any German recipe?
2) Which of these sites is a reliable source for associating this dish with German cuisine?
3) All these sites simply collect recipes from all over the world. You will find e.g. Peking duck on these sites. Examples:

  1. Peking Ente (= Pecking Duck) Ein Kochmeister Rezept
  2. Peking Ente

This does not mean that this dish is widespread in Germany.

The fact that some of these sites call pierogi Polnische Maultaschen does not mean that Maultaschen is the same dish. It is the same as when some sites call it Polish ravioli. People just use common local names for association with foreign products. --Off-shell (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

  •  Done. Should be OK now. Thanks for the feedback, Poeticbent talk 15:06, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't think this can stay in the current form. There must be some reliable sources to keep it (books on food history, culture etc.). All these cooking web cites collecting international recipes and all these blogs are not sufficient. Also the association of pierogi with Oktoberfest coming from an American lady who recalls her German grandma is extremely dubious. No pierogi are served at the Oktoberfest in Munich (where the Oktoberfest actually takes place). Also the other linked reference is just a recipe posted by some user, and most commenters recall their Polish mothers and grandmothers cooking this dish. The German de:Pirogge article mentions briefly these varieties of "Piroggen" related to Germans:
  • Kurländer Speckkuchen (Courland speck pies) which were made by Baltic Germans and are known as pīrādziņi in Latvia. They were usually baked (like Russian pirozhki, see e.g. here). One can find RS for this variety, but this is not for this article.
  • Pirogen made by German speakers in Silesia. These are probably like Polish ones but may include spinach. I found so far no RS for that, and unfortunately, German Wiki rarely includes inline citations. Their articles about cookery usually rely on de:Herings Lexikon der Küche which is not available online.

--Off-shell (talk) 17:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I updated the page accordingly. --Off-shell (talk) 18:19, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I see you're trying very hard to not notice the white Elephant in the room. It's OK. I don't mind the removal of the actual online recipies featured in the leading German food portals. However, I will look around to see what else I can find about the quote-unquote polnische Maultaschen given a bit more time. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 21:21, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
You should not cross the border of what can be interpreted as a personal attack. "Leading recipe portals" collecting international recipes, as well as Google searches in general, can be completely misleading if you don't know the country actually. E.g. if you type "чили кон карне" (Chili con carne in cyrillic letters) in Google, you will get over 70000 hits in Russian including "leading Russian recipe portals". This however does not mean that the dish is especially popular in Russia. Meanwhile I corrected and extended the information on Schlutzkrapfen etc. --Off-shell (talk) 07:00, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Off-shell that we shouldn't treat recipe portals and blogs, where the content is largely user-genereated, as reliable sources. — Kpalion(talk) 09:44, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

History information perhaps available?[edit]

So far the only historical information in the article concerns the appearance of vareniki in Russia which I put in the former varenyky article some time ago. I wonder if there are Polish sources on when the dish was first mentioned etc. I saw some websites (like this) which claim e.g. that "According to historical accounts, the Asian invention reached Poland in the 13th century, thanks to a relative of St. Hyacinth - Bishop Iwo Odrowąż, who fell in love with the dish when he first tasted it during his stay in Kiev." Some other sites say it was St. Hyacinth himself. Are these just legends or are there indeed such accounts? --Off-shell (talk) 16:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Some websites (e.g. here) claim that a recipe for pierogi appears in Compendium Ferculorum (1682). A scan of this book is available here. Could some Polish speaker perhaps check if it is indeed true? I think I found it mentioning pirozhki on p. 23 (potrawa z pirożkami) and pp. 86-87 (pierożki smażone z konfektem różanym etc.), but no pierogi. --Off-shell (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Hi Off-shell! Czerniecki used the word pirożki in two senses; it could refer to either yeast-raised pastries similar to Russian pirozhki or small dumplings akin to modern Polish pierogi. The recipe on pp. 86-87 is for the former: the dough is made from flour, water and yeast, the possible fillings are sweet (rose petal jam, elderberry jam, plum butter, apples, pears, poppy seeds), the method of cooking is either frying in oil or baking, and the dish is served as a dessert, dusted with sugar. On page 79, he also mentions the possibility of using puff pastry (known in Polish as "French dough") for this kind of sweet pirożki. The recipe on p. 23, on the other hand, is for a hot side dish to stewed meat; the dumplings are made from unleavened dough of flour and eggs, filled with finely chopped veal kidney with suet, seasoned with fresh herbs, salt, pepper and nutmeg, and boiled in water.
For a more reliable secondary source (still in Polish, though) discussing these recipes, see Staropolskie pierogi Stanisława Czernieckiego by Dr. Jarosław Dumanowski, a historian of material culture. — Kpalion(talk) 07:26, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Citation for varenyky?[edit]

Hello The806. Since you insist on a citation for varenyky in the 1st sentence, please, specify here, what kind of citation is needed. The end of the 1st paragraph includes 4 citations for varenyky. Note that the current article is a recent merger of the previously separate articles on pierogi and varenyky. The merger was done after an extensive discussion on this page (s. #Proposed_merger above). If you insist on removing varenyky, this will need splitting of this article in two separate articles again. In this case, you should restart the above discussion and reach a new consensus. --Off-shell (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Off-shell. I've removed the tag and the unsourced 'Russian' spelling reference. The806 hasn't followed up with any form of response per WP:BRD, while the 'Russian' allusion is misleading as it isn't a Russian word (and if you were to transliterate it form Russian Cyrillic instead of Ukrainian Cyrillic, it would read a "vareniki"). Aside from that, the traditional Russian 'dumpling' of this style are actually Pelmeni: a different size; different fillings; slightly different, thinner pastry. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Hi Iryna. The spelling "vareniki" is obviously adopted from Russian, as it often occurs in books about Russia. Pelmeni are irrelevant at this point. In particular, the reference, which you removed, uses the spelling "vareniki" as an example. The information about this alternative spelling is correct and important, as it really occurs in literature. It does not matter what Russians or Ukrainians consider to be their "national dish". Now, concerning this edit where you removed the refererence: please read that sentence to the end. It says that Russians expect pirozhki, but get vareniki. And it is this second half of the sentence which is referred to here. It explains that pierogi and vareniki are the same dish. So both your edits removed valuable and correct information. --Off-shell (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
Please take a look at how the lede looked prior these removals. The first reference is given a prominent location whereby it's offered as a genuine alternative to the transliteration of 'varenyky' for a food that has only gained a little popularity in Russia over the Soviet period. The second is a tag for a citation needed... for what? Please explain why that tag was helpful and necessary. Note, also, that while there's a transliteration offered for both the Polish and Slovakian pronunciation, the actual Cyrillic "вареники" does not appear in the lede, nor is it noted that 'varenyky' is a transliteration now used in the Anglophone world as one of the options for the English nomenclature for the cuisine dependent on whether the individual or company making them for commercial purposes is Polish or Ukrainian. Sticking a passing reference to the Cyrillic variant into 'etymology' does not address the fact that the foodstuff is signified by a non-latin script.
To be honest, since merging the two articles, this has become a hodgepodge of POV pushing. The lede should note that they are considered to be national foods in Poland and Ukraine. Further information for the lede would be that they have become popular in Russia, Slovakia, and other ex-Soviet satellite states, but such content in the lede is contingent on RS for the introduction and popularity of these foodstuffs in areas where they were not traditional cuisine.
Further to that, we've had Romania added to the equation (and they're not even known as either pierogi or varenyky there, nor do they come in the 'traditional' half crescent shape in Romania). As for being a Latvian dish, the only thing I can think of is Pīrādziņi (the equivalent being Pirozhki). Slovakia? Sorry, but where is there even one RS naming it as a 'national' cuisine? Yes, I know Slovaks make Halušky and Knödel (that is, knedliky)... but pierogi/varenyky? Wikipedia's articles on cuisine are fast becoming the equivalent of all of the other OR 'info' and recipe WP:SPS cluttering cyberspace.
Ultimately, it does matter who considers it to be a national dish because a word cropping up more often in another language is not a measure of anything other than the fact that it crops up in another language: a Souvlaki/Gyros or even a 'curry' does not become Anglophile cuisine because a thousand times more of that foodstuff is sold and eaten in other countries than in the country of origin. Oh, and do note that both 'souvlaki' and 'gyros' provide the Greek script spelling of the foods, as well as what the meaning is in Greek... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:59, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
The tag "cn" was originally placed by The806, and it was unclear to me what was meant. This user had previously tried to remove "varenyky" altogether from the lede, so I added a reference for the fact that pierogi and varenyky are the same dish and asked this user for the reason of this tag. There was no response as you see. The reference is one of those listed above on this talk page (originally found by Kpalion) where it was requested before the merger to prove that this is the same dish. I found it the best reference of those, but one can take a different one or several of them (or others). However, a citation for this fact is indeed necessary.
Concerning the footnote with the spelling "vareniki", it is not about the word in another language. It is about the usage in English. According to Google, there are today more books in English with spelling "vareniki" than "varenyky", and also more websites with this spelling (the difference in numbers is not dramatic, the numbers are comparable). Again, for this footnote, it is irrelevant how popular they are in Russia, and whether it is a national dish or not.
Concerning Russia in general, it is not a national dish there, but it is known there since some 200 years, and not just since the Soviet times. It is mentioned in one of the 1st Russian cookbooks, The handbook of the Russian experienced housewife by K. Avdotyeva (1846). The 1st edition of A Gift to Young Housewives (1861) includes 5 recipes, the 1901 edition has 8 recipes. Nowadays, one finds industrially produced frozen varenyky everywhere in Russia, e.g. in Vladivostok, 10000 km away from Ukraine. But again, it was not claimed in the previous version of the lede, that it is a "Russian national dish".
Concerning different spellings and pronounciations in general, it became a mess indeed, and needs to be sorted out.
Concerning the standing in the other countries, I cannot judge on it in full. Just recently Colțunași was emptied and redirected to this article. If this edit is valid, this requires adjustment of the lede here, because it is no more a "similar" dish but the "same dish", so it must be featured in the lede somehow. Concerning Slovakia, the images on Commons suggest that it is a quite popular dish there, but whether it is considered a national dish, this needs a reference. Here are some pictures:
Concerning Latvia, it is indeed not traditional there. I suppose it is known there in the same way as elsewhere in the former Soviet Union. Probably it is not necessary to mention it explicitely.
In fact, there are also other parts of this article which are not well referenced. E.g., the whole section "Poland" has 2 references which cover only a small fraction of the information. --Off-shell (talk) 10:03, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
The issue with colțunași is that we have no RS for these being the same food but, rather, variations on different types of filled dough/pastry with nothing to demonstrate that the shapes are anything other than modern re-imaginings beholden to pre-existing cuisine. Please look at the images for colțunași. Their shapes vary along with whether they are baked (more like Tiropitas or Lebanese and Turkish pitas with stuffings), or steamed, etc.
With regards to the varenyky/vareniki issue, you've missed the point of the Cyrillic spelling/name of the dish as not presented. Any demonstrations of differentiations in the pronunciation are by-the-by and can be addressed. The Russian recipe book (an in a recipe book for the Imperial Russian housewife) is not exactly a mainstream source, and personal readings of "russki" recipes is WP:OR remembering that Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians were all considered "russki" as opposed to "rosiys'ki". There's also a recipe for Ukrainian pelmini in that recipe book, so I really don't know what it is outside of the equivalent of an old fashioned mish-mash for housekeeping for middle-class ladies. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to add in the different names of the dishes from the different countries in the Etymology section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdlugon (talkcontribs) 00:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Savory vs. sweet[edit]

Someone had added a sentence in the second paragraph to the effect that sour cream makes pierogi sweet and onions make them savory. I aver that that is just an opinion of one person and isn't universal. Pierogi in Poland and the US (the two places where I have eaten them) are often served with both onions and sour cream. Sour cream does not really make a potato pierogi "sweet" according to culinary tradition per se. This would indicate that it becomes more of a desert, which it does not. I changed it to make it more generic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.132.42.130 (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Pierogi vs. Varenyky[edit]

I am from Ukraine, so I am confused of the article`s name. Yes, in Poland this dish is named Pierogi. But Poland is not the only country of Eastern Europe. Others name it Varenyky. By the way Varenyky is initially Ukrainian dish. Now about "Pierogi". In East Slavic languages it means or "pirozhki", or "Pirog" in plural. Naming Varenyky as "Pierogi" is as silly as naming a hot dog as a hamburger. So the article should be renamed and started in this way: "Varenyky, also known as Pierogi... " Sorry for my English 178.150.235.29 (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Pointless discussion[edit]

From Polish point of view, this discussion is entirely pointless. Pierogi, Varenyky, Pirog, Pirozhki or whatever other name. There is another dish in Poland, called Uszka - almost exactly the same like pierogi, just smaller - different size and fillings: exclusively mushrooms. However no Pole will call them pierogi. Pierogi are pierogi, uszka are uszka. If there is distinctive differentiation in Polish between these two dishes, why articles Pierogi and Varenky were merged? Why not to leave different dishes from different countries, with their own specific names, to their own articles? Did anybody try to merge article about Alsatian Tarte flambée with article Pizza? --Matrek (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2017 (UTC)