Talk:Pig Latin

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My thoughts thereof[edit]

Very useful and well drafted page. I like the derived Iway for I myself and only wish to be as helpful contributing to the disambiguity. --Joseph L. Russell, Jr. 19:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MetlifeWP (talkcontribs)

A New Wikipedia Language Selection[edit]

Many Wikipedia users believe Wikipedia should come with the Igpay Atinlay (Pig Latin) option. John says:I agree they should have a igpay atinlay section.

I'yay ink'thay at'thay ere'thay ould'shay also'yay e'bay an inea'gay ig'pay atin'lay (itheginithegea'gay ithegig'pay ithegatithegin'lay) ikipedia'way! 24.59.157.62 (talk) 22:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Ithegashithega'say

onay, itay ouldway ebay otay ardhay otay eadray.--Faizaguo 21:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Another way of looking at Pig Latin is as a spoken transposition cipher. A form of verbal encryption / encipherment.

see: http://books.google.com/books?id=DCimOa_HYQ0C&pg=PA295&lpg=PA295&dq=spoken+transposition+cipher&source=bl&ots=xdVLTuVVRE&sig=l9jn0cOfVvU9SP82pc-SUeNzSo0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e2JSUoHCC-W4yAGk5IH4Ag&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=spoken%20transposition%20cipher&f=false

== Other Pig Latins? == HI BOLOS HEAD!

Question: is PigLatin primarily a phenomenon of children in English speaking countries, or are the same rules followed by children of other countries?

watashi wa nihongo no gakusei desu.
"I am a Japanese language student"

In Japanese language, I believe that the syllable is more of a fundamental unit that 'consonant' or 'vowel'. (Japanese characters, hiragana and katakana, form a syllabary rather than an alphabet.) So little kids in Japan would probably follow a different set of rules to create their own mock language.

I hope someone knows about this. I never thought of it before, and now I'm really interested.

In Sweden, the most popular mock language is "Rövarspråket", created by the author Astrid Lindgren in her books about "Mästerdetektiven Blomkvist" (Possibly Blomquist or similar. Roughly translated to "Blomkvist, the Master Detective".) Anyway, the basic idea is that consonants are doubled with an o put between them, (pronounced like X-Sampa /u/) Thus, swedish "Jag älskar dig"/"Jag älskar dej"("I love you", dig/dej depending on traditional or phonetic spelling) becomes "Jojagog älolsoskokaror dodigog/dodejoj"
Seems like the english title is "Bill Bergson". Don't know which mock/code language is used in the English version.

I have heard that the Japanese use "ba-bi-bu-be-bo" language. So "Boku ha Juuitchan da" would come out something like:

"bobokubu waba jubuubuibitchaban daba"

Something very similar was applied to English on the old children's TV show ZOOM under the name of "Ubbi Dubbi". --Matt McIrvin 18:39, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
...Though they generally inserted a schwa sound before the b, hence "Ubbi"... --Matt McIrvin 18:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
OK, it seems that after each syllable (ending with a vowel, excluding "n"), a similar syllable, (with the same vowel sound but the initial consonant sound always being b) is added. Check out Japanese language, and it hopefully will be clearer what I mean.
Thus (using widely known examples) Ma-N-Ga would be Ma-Ba-N-Ga-BA, A-Ni-Me would be A-Ba-Ni-Bi-Me-Be, Ka-Ra-O-Ke would be Ka-Ba-Ra-Ba-O-Bo-Ke-Be and Su-Mo-U (Sumo wrestling, usually wrongly pronounced in english) would be Su-Bu-Mo-Bo-U-Bu. Hmmm, similar B-type code languages seem to be common in different cultures.


I will ask my Japanese teacher (nihongo no sensei) next week. I don't have class until Wednesday, due to the holiday on Monday. Hopefully I won't forget, but someone can please remind me. I can also ask my Japanese mother-in-law.

On equivalents of PigLatin in other countries there is the French market argot Louchebem and Javanais (the former an adult language and the latter used by adults and children in different contexts and periods with many variants).
  • The Lunfardo language, in Buenos Aires (Argentina), have many spanish Pig Latin words: Ponja-japanese ( from Japon), Ñoba-toilette (Baño), Yoyega-spaniard (galician,gallego)... There are also "palindromos" and are used also like to tongue twisters in spanish language "Dabale el abad arroz a la zorra". Looking for: Cocoliche, Germanía, Vesre, Jeringonza.

[edit] Notes.Anselmocisneros 11:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Pig Latin[edit]

PigLatin is a spoken code. American Blacks used the language to hide intentions from hostile overseers. Nowadays it is taught as a game, but it helped people survive.

Is this true? [unsigned]
Absolutely untrue. There are no records of slaves using Pig Latin. At least the Ig-pay Atin-lay version, which only dates back to about the late 1920s or early 1930s in America. According to Merriam-Webster it dates back to 1931. It's clearly used in movies of that era like The Gold Diggers of 1933. Ginger Rogers even sings part of 'We're in the Money' in Pig Latin: "E're-way in-hay the Oney-may." The Three Stooges also used it in their shorts from the 1930s: "Oe-may and Arry-lay," though Curly did not understand it and so dubbed himself "Curly Q"

It was obviously a novelty word game introduced in that era and when the novelty wore off, it began to disappear. But Pig Latin has popped up now and again. The breakfast cereal Fruit Loops had an ad in the 1960s about "Uit-fray Oops-lay," which helps "Uild-bay up your uscles-may." In the 1970s the phrase "ix-nay on the otten-ray" was used in the movie Young Frankenstein. In fact "ixnay" lives on long after the real word "nix" meaning don't speak or to veto something has vanished.

Nix in the sense of "veto" hasn't vanished at all. -- Curps 07:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Pig Latin is also sometimes used by adults to hide certain words from small children, for example:
"Do you want an ookie-cay?" or "Where did you hide the istmas-Chray esents-pray?"
I've heard Leadbelly sing in Pig Latin; this was recorded well before WWII. Someone needs to do a little more research on the origins of Pig Latin. dq 23:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You can't have a page on pig latin without mentioning the 3 Stooges. They didn't invent it, but the certainly popularized it and the Stooges are the only reason why anyone knows about it.

Dong, Rövarspråket[edit]

There is also a related code language, I'm not sure if it has a name, in which each word is essentially spelled out, but consenants are appended with the suffix -ong and vowels are just spoken. For example:

Hello -> Hong-E-long-long-O
Good -> Gong-O-O-dong
Cookie -> Cong-O-O-kong-I-E
Apple -> A-pong-pong-long-E
I've heard a variant of this: it maps consonant n to non and vowel a to a itself: Hoh-e-lol-lol-o, gog-o-o-dod, coc-o-o-kok-i-e, a-pop-pop-lol-e, etc. Geoffrey
The second example sounds like "Rövarspråket", from an Astrid Lindgren book, the first one, maybe like "Pig Chinese". ;J (Although the Language game claims it's called "Dong")
"Rövar" translates AFAIK as robber, thief. So "Rövarspråket" would be "Language of the Thiefs". (Basti from Germany) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.126.85.141 (talk) 06:13, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Another dialect of Pig Latin[edit]

I learned a variant in which the first pronounced letter or letter gruop (like Qu or Sh) is moved to the end, and only if it is a consonant is the "ay" added.
Example: Isthay si a esttay. Isthay si nlyo a esttay.
means:
This is a test. This is only a test.
LMT1

Copyright violation[edit]

I have deleted a portion of the article, which was copied from The Straight Dope Mailbag, concerning the history of Pig Latin. That portion was also written in non-encyclopedic style ("I'll spare you the details", "check out the rest of the scene"). -- Coneslayer 20:58, 2005 August 3 (UTC)

Why isn't there a Pig Latin version of Wikipedia?[edit]

Because they have Klingon and Welsh.--Qpqp 05:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Welsh is an actual, evolved language that is still spoken by people who learned it naturally, so it has some value. I never quite understood why a Klingon version was created, though. There aren't enough people who speak it to make it worth the time. I don't think a complete version of Wikipedia in Pig Latin is worth the time, either, but because it is essentially English. However, I think a Pig Latin Babel box entry could be added just for fun, considering that 1337 is included. -Gutterball1219 02:55, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Well, it was obviously worth someone's time to make the Klingon version. Klingon may be an intentionally created language, but it is still a language. If people want to spend time working on it, that's their business. Pig Latin is a code, not a language. But if people want to spend the time putting up a Pig Latin version, don't let me stop you.--RLent 13:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Welsh is spoken in Wales, but Klingon is a conlang! Why in the world did they make a Wikipedia for it? (I didn't even know what it was; I had to look it up!). Anyway, Pig Latin isn't technically a language (see Language game), and is just a way of systematically altering English. Plus, all us Pig Latin speakers can speak English just as well, so why need we a Pig Latin Wikipedia? I do admit, however, it would be neat to have a Babel box for Pig Latin.  –Benjamin 21:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
There are now user language templates for Pig Latin! You can see them at Wikipedia:Babel#pig.  –Benjamin  (talk)  17:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. But there is a Pig Latin Google.--220.238.204.239 04:42, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not just English! Other languagese can also have Pig Latin.--Fox Mccloud 01:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

ig-Pay atin-Lay non lingua eal-ray. (attempted combination of pig latin and..."Latin latin").

Did you just say that pig latin is not real? I am mortally offended! Freddie 03:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Iway earnedlay igpay-atilay ebay-orefay Iway earnedlay anyway-ingthay elseway. Osay owhay isway itway otnay orthway anyway-one'sway imetay otay akemay itway? So I guess this makes Pig-Latin VERY real for me and my siblings.... {Munkey} Michelle —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.44.153 (talk) 07:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no PL wiki because if that's really what you want, it could be generated client-side with a browser script. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.87.39 (talk) 10:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

"away" in pig latin? (and other random stuff)[edit]

Being me, the first thing that comes to my mind upon reading the rules for construction are cases like "away" or "allay", which would end up with some sort of ay-ay (eg. "a-way-way" or "a-way-ay") in pig Latin. Is that how it would really be spoken? No. It would be "way-away". --74.232.19.35 (talk) 16:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Now let me see how many words in pig Latin spells the same as an English word (ignoring the hyphen):

  • ash-tray
  • e-Bay (well ok, proper noun)
  • under-play
  • over-lay (different pronunciation though)
  • over-play (used a dictionary for this one)
  • over-stay (dictionary used)

any others? especially words starting with consonants in English? 67.170.72.189 07:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd chalk it up to coincidence. I'm sure any two "proper" languages will have words that are pronounced the same with different meanings. BigNate37 20:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I wrote a quick little program to investigate this question in Perl:
#!/usr/local/bin/perl
my %words;
while (<>) {
    chomp;
    $words{$_} = 1;
}

foreach my $word (sort keys %words) {
    my $piglatin = '';
    if ($word =~ m/^([^aeiou]*)([aeiou].*)$/) {
        $piglatin = "$2$1ay";
    } elsif ($word =~ m/^[aeiou]/) {
        $piglatin = "${word}ay";
    }

    if ($words{$piglatin}) {
        print "$word $piglatin\n";
    }
}
I used the wordlist at [1] as the input, and got the following output:
all allay
ass assay
lin inlay
lover overlay
ok okay
raff affray
rast astray
ses essay
sun unsay
trash ashtray
trice icetray
uns unsay
wa away
I also tried it with the CMUDICT wordlist, from [2], and got this output:
ad aday
all allay
allow alloway
alt altay
as asay
ass assay
aw away
bogle oglebay
da aday
dal alday
dall allday
do oday
du uday
ess essay
is isay
ko okay
lal allay
lim imlay
lin inlay
lo olay
lover overlay
mella ellamay
ok okay
plunder underplay
rast astray
sa asay
sas assay
si isay
sor orsay
stover overstay
tal altay
tip iptay
trash ashtray
wa away
walley alleyway
wallo alloway
wan anway
wedge edgeway
word ordway
wunder underway
Nothing spectacular, but a mildly interesting exercise. Hope someone who reads this enjoys it. Nohat 05:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This wrong?[edit]

I think there's a problem with the algorithm given for consonant-started words:

For words that begin with consonant sounds, move all but the first consonant sounds to the end of the word and add "ay."

I take "all but the first consonant sounds" to mean the whole word excluding the start, i.e. the end of the word. Moving that part to the end doesn't make sense, because that is already where it is. Anyone else correct my logic, or is the page flawed? BigNate37 20:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the bane of Wikipedia - it's the "too many cooks" syndrome. It made sense a few versions ago. I'll try to restore. Well spotted. --Dweller 23:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone had interpolated the word "but" into my last version. The original read:
For words that begin with consonant sounds, move all the first consonant sounds to the end of the word and add "ay."
I've reverted this sentence to that version which is consistent with the rest of the text.--Rcharman 23:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Non Pig Latin games[edit]

Though games for non-English languages are akin to Pig Latin, there are articles for those games and for language games as a group. Examples for those games should be in those articles and not here.--Rcharman 23:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

English, etc?[edit]

Pig Latin
Igpay Atinlay
Spoken in United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand
Classification Pig Latin
Spoken with English, etc.
See also: Language games

Exactly what in the category of Language falls under English, etc?

Pig Latin is primarily used with English, although I've also seen it (very rarely) used with French and Latin. That's why the et cetera is used.  –Benjamin  Texas 20:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

As a 40 yr old Briton born, raised and widely travelled in England, I've never encountered Pig Latin in any schools visited and had never heard of it before reading a linguistics book less than a decade ago! The standard backslang game here is to reverse whole words or phrases e.g. car park = krap rac Pig Latin appears to be an American import into Britain.

Indeed, as someone who actually learned latin at school back in the 90s, I have to say that I've never encountered this "ot-nay eally-ray ig-pay atin-lay" other than on a few episodes of "The Simpsons". Pig Latin in the UK, where I've heard it used, is making latin-sounding words out of English ones. For example, one might use the word "illegitimus" to mean "bastard", rather than the ACTUAL Latin noun, "nothus". There are probably a thousand examples in The Life of Brian and Up Pompeii. Thus, the end is the same (latin-sounding words that can be understood by an English speaker), but it is a tad more refined! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.86.138.193 (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
Same in Australia, US television only —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.184.13.179 (talk) 04:15, 10 January 2008
The use of latin-sounding words is called Dog Latin according to that article (I have no opinion about it) --Erikms (talk) 20:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

History of Pig Latin[edit]

It would be nice to see some information about the history/origin of Pig Latin. What times it was first used, and when the public was aware of it etc. [unsigned]

Etymology[edit]

What does the language game have to do with pigs, and why was it named for Latin and not, say, Spanish, German, cuneiform, or the most relevant, English? This information would improve the article. --Gray PorpoisePhocoenidae, not Delphinidae 22:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where the name "Pig Latin" came from, and I daresay no one else does either. However, as you pointed out, it has nothing to do with pigs or Latin. Hence, I think that it's just a silly name for a silly game (nothing against all you Pig Latin speakers out there–I'm one myself). I agree such information would be good to have, but until somebody does some extensive research, I'm afraid there won't be much in that direction.  –Benjamin  Texas 20:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag??[edit]

I fail to see why there was a "Neutrality disputed" tag on this page. I have since removed it. JMyrleFuller 23:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

One-to-one[edit]

The article currently asserts:

Depending on the rules, Pig Latin may not be one to one; that is, there may exist pairs of English words that have the same translation into Pig Latin. For instance, in the "way" variation, "itch" and "witch" both become itch-way. Note, however, that using the first formula for vowels (eagle → eagle-ay) will not produce ambiguity, and thus can be considered one-to-one (with respect to English).

Not true: "end" and "den" both become enday, for example. (Other examples: "ant" and "tan"; "apt" and "tap".) I suppose some pedants would insist that using a hyphen relieves the ambiguity (but seeing as how Pig Latin is used orally far more than it is used in writing, I claim a silent hyphen does little good.)

An aside: I learned the "way" variation first, and consider it more sonorous when words end in a vowel. (I cringe at the double-a's in "areaay", "ideaay", and "okraay".) --Heath 128.173.42.61 04:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Backslang[edit]

To a linguist, "backslang" refers more to the generic type referred to on the slang page, where letters or syllables are reversed, than Pig Latin which is a very specific kind. Any objections to changing the redirect to point there? --Lou.weird 15:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Anita O'Day[edit]

Why is Anita O'day referenced in this article? I see that the pig latin word for dough is her last name, but this just seems like a random link between the two articles. --Beau 15:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

UPDATE 216.235.192.10 15:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, apparently Anita O'Day changed her name to O'Day because it is pig latin --Beau 216.235.192.10 15:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"phone" -> "phone-ay"?[edit]

The article claims "phone" becomes "phone-ay", apparently on the grounds that "ph" ("f") is a "silent consonant" or vowel. Acknowledging that I may have learned a different dialect of Pig Latin than the author, I don't think it's reasonable to claim that "ph" is either silent or a vowel.

The way I learned Pig Latin, "phone" certainly becomes "own-fay".

Comments? --Pediddle 08:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Certainly "own-fay." Though that's OR :)

207.38.248.24 (talk) 02:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Words starting in vowels - alternate method?[edit]

I was always taught that if a word started with a vowel sound, you move everything up to the first syllable starting with a consonant sound to the end and start from there.

Hence, "eagle" would be "Gle-ea-ay" (Phonetically, "Gull-e-ay") rather than just "Eagle-ay".

It fits more closely with the construct of Pig Latin, seeing as one of the primary elements of the language is moving the front part of the word to the back. Honestly, just slapping an "-ay" (or "-way", or whatever) to the end of the word seems to me like cheating! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.214.137.199 (talkcontribs) 03:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Oeks[edit]

The section on Oeks added July 9 by an anonymous IP address seems like original research at best, and most likely a hoax. I think it should be removed. Hu 13:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

This is very very likely to be a hoax, I'm dutch and I can honestly say that I have never heard of "Oeks". The description also seems to suggest that this was a very local (one school, in a small town only) and just between friends/classmates. I agree that it should be removed. Vdham 08:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Same here, should be removed. Sounds like a non respectful joke to MAVO students... An even better reason to remove it, is since the loss of distinctive vowels, the original words can't be re-engineered. That for me counts as a major disqualifier eg. "aansteken" (to light sth) will have the same result as "insteken" (to put sth into sth)

81.86.57.99 17:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

This Article should be in Pig Latin[edit]

This entire article should be written in Pig Latin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.115.7.122 (talk) 01:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Onay, isthay entireay articleay ouldn'tshay ebay ittenwray innay igpay atinLay, omecay onnay. 204.52.215.107 14:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
But only if you want to set up a Pig Latin namespace in Wikipedia! TINYMark (Talk) 14:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Good idea! (or should I say, "Oodgah ideay"?) Write it up for Uncyclopedia.. Jimw338 (talk) 04:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Because it sounds like Latin, yes?[edit]

I don't think it's a "deliberate misnomer" that it's called Latin. The "ay" sound mimics the word endings added in Latin. I don't know Latin, but in Spanish, some conjugated verbs end in -e, which sounds like "ay". danwWiki (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Spanish is not Latin. Latin inflection is very different from Spanish and most of it does not sound like "ay." --Politizer (talk) 03:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

"mimics the word endings added in Latin" "I don't know Latin" riiight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.27.160.189 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Typo ? ("Amsterdam" example)[edit]

Amsterdam → Amsterdanway ???

Suppose to be "Amsterdamway" ? 82.194.234.254 (talk) 06:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Then fix it yourself under a minor clean-up category. Don't report a typo on talk pages.

--ObiwanLostToBarney &#124; (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Commented out some info[edit]

I had to comment out most of the info in the Use section. Some of it was simply not cited or verifiable (the statement that "Pig Latin" in British refers to back slang, and the statement that Ben Franklin used Pig Latin), and for some the reference cited was not enough (the statement that "Pig Latin" is another term for Butcher's Back Slang is not supported in the reference that was given--that reference does say that butchers used back slang during WW2, but never says that anyone called it pig latin). --Politizer (talk) 03:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Recursion for Pig-Latin??[edit]

Someone (probably a student) noted that one used recursion to program Pig-Latin. You can use recursion for a lot of stuff, but it is not really useful here. The Java-like pseudocode for this would be

public String toPigLatin (String s) {
 // ignore empty
 if (s == "") return s;
 if (isVowel(s.charAt(0)) return s + "way";
 if (isConsonant(s.charAt(0)) return s.substring(1) + s.charAt(0) + "ay"; 
}

--WiseWoman (talk) 08:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your removal of that section. Not only can you use recursion for a lot of other things, but you can program Pig Latin in a lot of other ways, such as with regular expressions. Thanks for the cleanup. —Politizertalk • contribs ) 14:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
I just went one step further and removed the whole computer programming section. The only bit that was left, after removing the stuff about recursion, had several problems:
  1. The thing it was talking about was only "experimental" and not very notable
  2. It was written sort of like instructions
  3. It was written in a way such as to be pretty much incomprehensible to the lay reader.
Politizertalk • contribs ) 15:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

This article should be removed[edit]

I don't even know where to begin to prove how inaccurate and subjective this article is. First and foremost, it has no or too few references, and none based on reliable linguistic research sources, which, I suspect, do exist.


"The purpose of the alteration is to both obfuscate the encoding and to indicate for the intended recipient the encoding as 'Pig Latin'."

The first part of that statement sounds too systematic. Even if it can be proved correct, it only applies to the English language, and the sentence should therefore be reformulated by taking this fact into account.

The second clause can either be seen as obviously wrong, or as a completely empty tautology: If the purpose of speaking a (coded) language were only to make the person you're speaking to (therefore presumed to speak it as well) understand that you are speaking that (coded) language, there would be no point speaking it.


"it could also be because the transformed words sound similar to Latin"

There is no longer such thing as a living Latin phonology. As for the past ones, they can be reconstructed, but even so, "Pig Latin" most certainly did not sound like that. Even if that claim was founded, original research should not be on the wikipedia.

If the "origin" section were constructive, it would require citations / sourcing.

The "Use" section seems to claim that slang words need to be incorporated somehow. Some serious and sourced corpus work should be done to analyze the frequency of use of Pig Latin.

The "Other languages" section is not exhaustive. Major examples are missing like the Serbo-Croatian "Šatrovački", and the French "Verlan", which is much more ubiquitous and close to Pig Latin rules than the mentioned "loucherbem". Verlan is actually a sociological identity language, whereas loucherbem is merely a joke.


I will remove the article in a week if it is not completely rewritten.

L'œuf (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

  1. No, the article doesn't need to be deleted, it needs to be cleaned up. We don't delete articles just because they need work. Please see the deletion policy.
  2. Yes, a lot of statements in this article are unsourced junk. You are welcome to help clean up the article by removing the junk and adding sources. For example, the "transformed words sound similar to Latin" is obvious junk and you would be correct in removing it (in fact, I think it has been removed before; a tendentious editor must have re-added it while I was on vacation or something).
  3. The "other languages" section is not meant to be exhaustive; there is a List of language games for that purpose. This section is not meant to list all language games, it is only meant to list ones that are structurally similar to Pig Latin. Verlan, while frequently compared (incorrectly) to Pig Latin, is not like Pig Latin; words are formed in a different way. Loucherbem, on the other hand, uses almost the exact same rules as Pig Latin; that's why loucherbem is mentioned and verlan is not. Yes, verlan is a bigger and more important argot, but it's less relevant to Pig Latin. Also, "loucherbem is merely a joke" is a statement some people would contest; see, for example,

    #Valdman, Albert (2000). "La Langue des faubourgs et des banlieues: de l'argot au français populaire". The French Review 73 (6). (French)

    who argues that loucherbem is more serious in French than Pig Latin is in English. (also remember that Pig Latin, too, is 'merely a joke'.)
  4. You do not have the power to "remove the article in a week". All you can do is put it up for discussion at Articles for deletion, and I guarantee you the article will be kept, and the discussion speedily closed, for the reasons I gave in my first point.
rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 02:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I second the opinion of rʨanaɢ. The way to handle an undocumented article is to improve it, not to delete it. A quick search of Google Scholar turns up 56,000 references to pig latin in professional literature, so it is certainly a phenomenon worthy of inclusion in the Wikipedia.

L'œuf, we appreciate your zeal and gladly support your efforts to add citations to this important article. Oodgay ucklay. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC) (or Avray Apapay, if you prefer)


I actually never support the deletion of an article. What I meant to say is that the article needs to be entirely rewritten from scratch. I am unaware of all the subtleties of Pig Latin (reason why I checked it on Wikipedia!) and I would at least need one week of study in order to rewrite the all thing.
The problem with "language games" (as it is often put) and slangs is that they are greatly documented, yet their Wikipedia articles are usually written by people who master them only, without knowing anything about the research thereon.
This applies to the Verlan article as well. I happen to have a good knowledge of it, and, really, I have the feeling it is much closer to Pig Latin (structurally) than Louchébem is (I will not touch these articles, though).
In the book you are quoting, Valdman does indeed argue that "Loucherbem is more serious in French than Pig Latin is in English," but also that it is one among many slangs that contributed to forge today's Verlan as we know it. Loucherbem is a local epiphenomenon, whereas Verlan is today the identity code for the Second and Third generations of Northern African immigrants all over the French territory (not only in Rhônes-Alpes, like Louchébem). If there is one ""French Pig Latin"" to be kept between Loucherbem and Verlan, I would go for Verlan.
I will try to edit properly this article during the next week.

L'œuf (talk) 09:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Verlan is already on my to-do list, whenever I get some free time.
As for the comparison between verlan and Pig Latin... no, they're simply not the same. Regardless of what comparisons you can make socially, they are simply not formed the same structurally. Pig Latin is formed by taking the first sound of a word, moving it to the end, and adding a syllable. Verlan is not. Loucherbem is. It's as simple as that. Furthermore, even the social comparison is inaccurate; verlan is a relatively serious vehicle of social identity and marking group membership, whereas Pig Latin is mostly just a child's game. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 11:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Jefferson[edit]

I've removed an incorrect statement about Thomas Jefferson recording his sexual activity in Pig Latin and deleted the accompanying reference. The referenced material discusses journals of Thomas Thistlewood, not Thomas Jefferson. The Wikipedia page on Thistlewood notes his famous diary, and no such diary seems to exist for Jefferson. Although the language Thistlewood uses to mask his sexual language is actually called "Pig Latin" in the now-removed source, this is also incorrect: certain words were merely replaced with Latin. Latin and Pig Latin are further confused in this article: [3] Mohrgould (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation page?[edit]

We should maybe add a disambiguation page as Pig Latin is also a computer language for the Apache Pig project. see http://pig.apache.org and http://pig.apache.org/docs/r0.7.0/piglatin_ref1.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drdee (talkcontribs) 18:04, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Based on those just that one site, the Pig Latin computer programming language wouldn't pass Wikipedia's notability guidelines. You'd need more sources. As for the disambiguation page, you probably need to add an article for the programming language before creating the disambiguation page. If you've got the sources showing notability, go for it. – jaksmata 23:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Latin[edit]

Is this article really within the scope of WikiProject Latin? It's nothing to do with Latin - it's just a language called 'Pig Latin'. It has less to do with the language than Latin America, which genuinely has a connection but is surely not within the scope of the project. --Rbreen (talk) 13:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Definitely not relevant; thanks for catching that. I've replaced it with WikiProject Languages. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

"according to Aiden Latin"?[edit]

"Aiden Latin" is brought up in the first sentence of the first paragraph and never mentioned again. Why is it included? What does Aiden even mean? I'm deleting it unless someone thinks there's a reason for leaving it up.

My thoughts thereof[edit]

I am not as agreeable with the edit detailing the origin of Pig latin. Pig Latin as disambiguation describes was a form of language, used especially by children, that is derived from ordinary English by moving the first consonant or consonant cluster of each word to the end of the word and adding the sound (ā), as in Eakspay igpay atinlay for “Speak Pig Latin.”. --Joseph L. Russell, Jr. 20:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MetlifeWP (talkcontribs)

Phonetics[edit]

Shouldn't this article and its examples have more of a phonetic perspective? For example, using IPA, or spelling the examples without unnecessary letters that don't make any different sounds when the order is changed. After all, it seems that this language game is based on the phonetics of the words, not the orthography. Mechanic1c (talk) 00:55, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Using IPA in addition to the current pronunciation examples presented in the article might please some people who are proficient in IPA, but I don't think the average reader would have any interest in it and would find it an unnecessary distraction. We're not dealing with an actual language that has any significantly different pronunciations than standard English. Anyone with an average knowledge of English should not have any difficulty with pronunciation using the rules and examples in the article. I learned pig latin in about two minutes when I was six years old. It's not complicated. I would oppose replacing the current examples with IPA; if that was done most people would give up trying to figure it out. Sundayclose (talk) 02:30, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
It's used pretty consistently everywhere else, and links are provided to Wikipedia's Help page for IPA. Either way, examples like "egg" → "ggeway" imply that Pig Latin doesn't concern morphophonology, and if it doesn't, the pronunciation of Pig Latin should be identical to that of English and therefore this article should not include any phonetics guides differently than an article about English (which it currently does, like with "i" → "ii" pronounced like "ee" in "eek", which I think would be described with IPA in a standard article about English). If it concerns orthography and phonetics, they should both be described. Right now, the Rules section contains a bunch of information not organized by linguistic topics that it may or may not concern. If someone here knows whether Pig Latin concerns any phonetic rules, another opinion might be worthwhile. Mechanic1c (talk) 16:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
It's used everywhere else for actual languages. Pig Latin is not a language; it is a distortion of the English language. I'm not opposed to adding IPA, although I think it will be ignored by most readers, some of whom will find it an annoying distraction. Wikipedia is written for the average reader, not linguistic purists. But I oppose replacing the current pronunciation guides with IPA, and I would insist on a consensus for that. As for current pronunciation examples which are confusing or disorganized, feel free to change those; but don't replace them with IPA Sundayclose (talk) 16:46, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Fine with me. Mechanic1c (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

My thoughts thereof[edit]

I think some people ought not be so small! When John says:I agree they should have a igpay atinlay section "I'yay ink'thay at'thay ere'thay ould'shay also'yay" It is disassembling to want e'bay to indemnify the few at the expense of the marginal "(itheginithegea'gay ithegig'pay ithegatithegin'lay)" Thanks ikipedia'way. --70.98.142.254 (talk) 20:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Redundancy[edit]

The paragraph on consonant clusters in the "Rules" section is redundant. The paragraph right before it states "For words that begin with consonant sounds, all letters before the initial vowel are placed at the end of the word sequence..." This would include consonant clusters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tns3327 (talkcontribs) 08:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Why was the "-ay" variant removed?[edit]

I've restored it. Kostaki mou (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Should mention other game languages.[edit]

What about the relationship with the Javanais? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanais — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:6849:EC43:9A44:681B (talk) 12:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)