Talk:Poaceae

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Untitled[edit]

I always hate to be contrary, but why did you (UtherSRG) reformat the taxobox in a way that is inconsistent with all the other taxoboxes at Wikipedia and call it an "update" ? The format you used is (IMHO) not at all an improvement and can cause difficulty to follow in many situation since you are essentially removing centering from the title boxes and centering the text/list boxes. This approach will not work without considerable effort on taxoboxes with long or complex listings of taxa. Also, it is generally standard practice to center things like titles and pictures and not center following text; or not center anything. - Marshman 18:48, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Is it true that the grasses grow from the bottom, while other plants grow from the top? AxelBoldt 09:08, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Grasses have intercalary meristems in their leaves and culms that produce new tissues at the base of blades or internodes.--Curtis Clark 01:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Merge species list with article[edit]

I would like to merge the species list of Poaceae inside the taxobox of this article...Qwertzy2

Evolution[edit]

This article needs to contain information about when, where and how grass appeared.

Lawn grass[edit]

What type of grass is found in parks and lawns? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kisch (talkcontribs) .

It depends on what part of the world you are talking about. Many different species are used.--Curtis Clark 14:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

All of them I guess - I think the 'cultivation and use' section should deal with uses other than for food, but I know nothing about it. Kisch

Done.--Curtis Clark 03:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Cereals, corn(s), maize[edit]

Would someone familiar with the details of both American and British English please explicate the typically confusing differences in terminology.

Is "corn" a British equivalent to "cereal"? Make "maize" into "maize (American English corn). Where does the word "grain" stand in relation to "corn"/"cereal".

Cereals, corn(s), maize[edit]

Would someone familiar with the details of both American and British English please explicate the typically confusing differences in terminology.

Is "corn" a British equivalent to "cereal"? Make "maize" into "maize (American English corn). Where does the word "grain" stand in relation to "corn"/"cereal".

I was taught (in England) that, at one time, "corn" simply meant the primary grain used for flour production. In England, this was wheat, in parts of Scotland, it was rye, and in much of the Americas it was maize. As North American usage became more prevalent, the interpretation of corn as meaning maize has become more common.

"Cereal grasses" is a useful but vague phrase. It generally refers to the members of the wheatgrass tribe (Triticeae) that are used for baking and flour production - wheats, rye, and barley. I don't think it is usually used to refer to corn/maize, rice, or teff - or the other grasses that are used for baking in other parts of the world - but that could be simply because I have only worked in parts of the world where the primary flour-producing grasses are the wheatgrasses. "Cereal" can also be used to refer to non-grasses that are used for flour - buckwheat etc. It is a vague but useful word.

Grain generally means a dry, starchy seed or fruit that one grinds to make flour. Technically, in grasses, this would be the fruit (a caryopsis) which is inseparable from the seed. It is also sometimes used to refer to dry fruits/seeds of plants, such as buckwheat, that are not grasses.

In reference to grasses: grain is a much easier term than caryopsis; fruit, a logical alternative, conjures up images of fleshy things like apricots, plums, and oranges; seed is probably not used simply because people tend to think of seeds as things that are inside something else - and it is impossible to get the seed out of a grass grain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mary Barkworth (talkcontribs) 13:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Cultivation and uses[edit]

Edit conflict!

I'm having trouble with grains being described in "northern Asia" (formerly "northern Eurasia") as I don't think of Siberia as a major wheat belt. Perhaps "Europe and western Asia" would be clearer.

In general I was having problems with the geographical descriptions -- one crop per region -- as of course today the US for example produces everything. I tried to alter that to "Historically..." but got overridden.

Perhaps something like "primary" or "leading" crops would clarify that.

Diagrams[edit]

I dissected a wheat spike and made the three pictures Spica_spiculae.pgn, Anatomia.png and Spicula_dissecta.png that are in the Commons. They were SVGs, but I couldn't upload them properly and so I converted them to PNGs. I think that a more detailed desciption of the peculiar flower/fruit of Poaceae would be very useful, especially if presented with pictures of a real spike (not schemes). I could do it, but unfortunately I don't know the nomenclature in the english language (and so I cannot even translate the notes in the images), can someone help me? i need to know:

  • The name of the two bracts that protect the spiklets (in italian called glume)
  • The name of each of the two bracts protecting each flower, internal and esternal (in italian called glumetta interna and glumetta esterna)

Have a look at the pictures, any help is welcome. Aelwyn 17:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. No pain, no gain. Aelwyn 10:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Confusing lead[edit]

What are "true grasses"? Please cleanup. FrummerThanThou 04:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Zeaceae?[edit]

Has anyone heard that the genus Zea was moved to Zaeceae? I was told this, but I'm having trouble confirming it. All accounts of Zeaceae that I can find show it as a synonym for Poaceae. ++ Arx Fortis 21:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Zea is definitely in the Poaceae, no need to mention Zeaceae --Graminophile 19:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Lawn Grass[edit]

Specific type of lawn grass in certain areas of the world needs to be mentioned Complex-Algorithm-Interval 20:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It would be a long list, I suspect. I just finished mowing mine, which is a mix of Cynodon dactylon, Stenotaphrum secundatum, and Festuca arundinacea, with a bit of Digitaria sanguinalis and Bromus diandrus as weeds, and there are a number of other coomon lawn species used in the region (southern California). It might even warrant a separate article, List of lawn grasses.--Curtis Clark 23:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Poaceae (formerly known as Gramineae)

Yes, more and more people are using Poaceae, particularly in North America, but it would be more accurate to say Poaceae( alternatively known as Gramineae). The two names are equally correct.

Mary Barkworth (talk) 13:25, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Grass and society section: erroneous dates?[edit]

In the "Grass and society" section it is mentioned that grasses "have been used to make paper since at least as early as 2400 B.C." Paper is generally acknowledged to have been invented in the 2nd century in China. Papyrus, on the other hand, has indeed been around since the 3rd millenium BC, but Cyperus papyrus belongs to the cyperaceae family, not the poaceae. Would it be ok to edit the date and say 2nd century instead of 2400BC?

There is I think another issue with beer. The section says "Also, the primary ingredient of beer is usually barley or wheat, both grasses that have been used for this purpose for over 1000 years" but beer based on malted barley has been around for much, much longer than that (around the 3rd millenium BC if the wiki article on the history of beer is to be believed). So I would suggest changing the date to that. Julienvr (talk) 23:02, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Subfamily classification?[edit]

I've added a "citation needed" to the description of the "most recent classification" of Poaceae. Which classification is this? For instance, wikipedia is listing Aristida in tribe Aristideae of subfamily Arundinoideae... I've done a brief literature search, and am not coming up with any studies that suggest this classification. Family-wide phylogenies (e.g., that of the Grass Phylogeny Working Group) suggest that this classification is polyphyletic (Danthonioideae & Chloridoideae would also have to be included in Arundinoideae to yield a monophyletic subfamily), and recognize Aristida in a separate subfamily Aristidoideae. So, maybe I've missed some of the relevant literature... but, as it is, this page provides a subfamilial classification that is both unsourced and, so far as I can tell, inconsistent with phylogenetic results. So, where does this classification come from and what is the justification for using it?Paalexan (talk) 18:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, looks like this has been fixed here... although some of the other grass-related pages (e.g., the page for Arundinoideae) are now inconsistent with the subfamilies presented in this page... Paalexan (talk) 22:26, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Gramineae[edit]

So what happened to Gramineae? All the article says is that Poaceae is also called Gramineae before mentioning later where the name Poaceae comes from. If you're going to tell us where the name Poaceae came from, shouldn't you at least also tell us where the name Gramineae went to? 27.33.121.123 (talk) 08:47, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Gramineae remains a valid alternative name for the grasses. Note that I have corrected your spelling of the name. Plantsurfer 21:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Merge Grass into Poaceae[edit]

I suggest that we don't need two articles that both cover essentially the same topic, and that any useful material in Grass should be merged into Poaceae. Plantsurfer 12:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

  • I support the merger. Note that if folks agree on the merge but disagree on which article is sunk, can they please state this rather than just scupper the proposal? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:37, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support merging grass into Poaceae. But the redirects graminid, graminoid, and graminoids should not be retargetted to Poaceae. The redirecting terms can have two distinct meanings; traditionally they refer to a paraphyletic form classification (grasses/sedges/rushes), but they have been used in recent decades as names for monophyletic clades (as a clade name, graminoid/graminid excludes sedges and rushes). Plantdrew (talk) 20:52, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree. Plantsurfer 20:57, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Disagree: I do support a merger but I don't believe the resulting article should be titled Poaceae. I think the title should be Grass just as the title of the Rosa page is Rose. "Grass" is the much, much, more commonly accepted term, and therefore I propose the merger be the other way around: Poaceae be merged into Grass. --MCEllis (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I am opposed to that. I think it would set a precedent that could lead to the dismantling of articles on other major taxa. Poaceae is one of the largest plant groups, of immense importance to the biosphere and to human economy. To lose the definitive article that states what they are would be a mistake. Plantsurfer 00:24, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support: "Grass" is clearly synonymous with Poaceae, at least in scientific literature. A short article on graminoids should be sufficient to cover the functional/morphological group of Poaceae + Cyperaceae + Juncaceae; otherwise both of the other families have well established common names. Graminid refers to a clade in Poales and could either link to that page or an own article. Keeping "Poaceae" rather than the common name as title seems to be in line with other plant family articles. Tylototriton (talk) 12:16, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
I have now merged Grass into Poaceae. I have tried to do this conservatively, but that means work is still required to clean up. In particular there are many points where citations are needed and some thinning out/compacting would be desirable in places - such as the sections on lawns and sports pitches. I have already had a go at some of this - please, please help to get this article into shape. Plantsurfer 14:02, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for merging. I've created/expanded articles on graminoids and graminid clade. Tylototriton (talk) 15:47, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Plantsurfer 16:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Glume redirect[edit]

I notice that glume redirects to chaff, which is not identical in meaning by any stretch. Other parts of grass flowers, such as palea (botany), lemma (botany) and lodicule have their own short articles. I am proposing to write up a section in Poaceae describing the structure and nomenclature of the grass inflorescence, and I think it would be appropriate to have the glume redirect reversed and a short article created. What is the formal procedure for reversing a redirect such as this? Plantsurfer 16:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Plantsurfer Why, just delete the redirect markup (#redirect [[Chaff]]) and substitute your text just as for any other new article. No special permission needed!: Noyster (talk), 20:02, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Evolution is unclear: Source link is dead[edit]

The article claims that "A multituberculate mammal with "grass-eating" adaptations seems to suggest that grasses were already around at 120 mya", but the source given (http://www.japantimes.co.jp/article-expired/#.V3Bi_zWrlyF) is dead, and does not look credible. The article about multituberculate mammals contains the same claim, with the same source (arguably added by the same editor). I did a Google search and I can't find any publication that supports this. I suggest to remove the claim from both articles unless a proper source can be found.--Renerpho (talk) 01:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)[edit]

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