# Talk:Poker/Archive 1

## History section

Unfortunately a lot of claims relating As Nas to poker on the net come from poker journalists without any sources. The only source I found on poker history that came from an actual historian was found below:

http://www.pagat.com/vying/pokerhistory.html The question naturally arises as to which way round any borrowing may have taken place. Favouring the priority of As-nas is the fact that As-nas cards, a subset of the Persian ganjifeh pack, are attested as early as 1700 in Persia, though without any account of the game played with them. Against it are -

the absence of any description of the game earlier than 1890; the fact that As is not a Persian word and obviously derives from the French for Ace; and (hence) the probability that As-nas derives from a European vying game rather than the other way around.

Also, since games that incorporated handrankings,betting, and bluffing were found in earlier European games, it is safe to assume that the heart of poker lies within games such as Primero or Poque, not As Nas. If As Nas conributed anything to poker, it was the introduction of two pair and the full house (though considering thre earliest reference to As Nas was after the invention of American poker, this is unlikely.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.82.74 (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The ISBN is wrong for Doyle's Super System (1979): the correct ISBN is 1580420818. The current text incorrectly suggests that Sklansky and Caro both wrote their books in the 1970's. Sklansky's Theory of Poker wasn't written until 1987. I don't have a copy of Mike Caro's Book of Tells, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't written in the 1970's either, and possibly as late as the 1990s. I haven't changed the article yet - do I have my facts straight?--Toms2866 13:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Update: the Library of Congress suggests Caro's book first published 1984. [1] --Toms2866 14:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the references section lists the publication date of Caro's book as 1978, I'm not going to override it (yet). Can someone please pull a copy off the shelf and look at the copyrights? However, I did fix the Super System ISBN and reworded text to indicate that Sklansky's book wasn't published in the 1970s.--Toms2866 04:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

History > pochen

Please note that the German word 'pochen' also means 'to brag'. The same word is found in Dutch, meaning 'to brag'. So it is more likely that the translation 'to brag' is the one that should be used in the history of poker, rather than 'to knock'. 82.170.120.233 23:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Being German, I have never heard "pochen" being used to mean "to brag", and as such I think the only viable translation is indeed "to knock".62.104.103.59 (talk) 13:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

## How About Some General Rules of Play?

It seems to me that an article which purports to inform people about any game ought to contain --Hpesoj00 22:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)a section on how that game is played. I noticed a link to a page dealing specifically with the ranks of poker hands, but why should this be separate from the main article? If you went looking for information on, say, Australian rules football, and found information about the history of the game, and what kind of outfits the referees wear, but had to link to a separate page for information on the game's rules and scoring structure, would that not seem a bit odd to you--not to mention inconvenient? And yes, I'm well aware that there are hundreds of variant games with the word "poker" in their names, but something that practically all of them have in common is the ranking of hands. This information, at the very least, ought to appear on the main page, along with a brief explanation regarding exceptions such as lowball, hi-lo, Omaha-8, and so forth. That way, if each game gets a link of its own, the reader can click to the game he or she wants to know more about with at least some idea of what they all share in common. Otherwise, a person who knew nothing about poker might be forgiven for thinking that what links all these games is the fact that they're played with chips, and that it's rude to "splash the pot." Frankly, it's hard to believe that this was ever a "Featured Article," as it currently stands. I'll leave it as it is for a few days, but after that I'm changing it if nobody can give me a good reason why I shouldn't. Buck 19:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

There are many other articles linked from this article. Please don't either duplicate them here, nor try to make this article absurdly long by including content that should be sub-articled. Games like Omaha and Stud have their own articles and should not have content duplicated here. 2005 21:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Linked sub-articles are quite appropriate to hypertext: we're not necessarily trying to male all articles easily printable, mailable, etc. Breaking the topic up into manageable pieces makes it easier to read in this medium, which was my goal when I created the initial structure and content here. Having the most important sub-articles all linked from the second paragraph seems like a reasonable compromise to me. --LDC 05:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Let me clarify: I wasn't recommending that we duplicate entire articles concerning specific variants like Omaha and Stud. What I was, and am, saying is that an article about a game ought to include some information about fundamentals of game play. On that we can all agree, I'm sure. Now, whenever I've had people who've never played before at my home game, the first thing they want to know is the ranking of hands--and this doesn't change from game to game (with a couple of exceptions, which I mentioned in my last post, above). Why not supply that information for curious readers of the Wikipedia in the body of the main article? And don't say the article is verging on being "absurdly long," because it's far from that. Go have a look at the articles on any other game in this encyclopedia and you'll find information in the main body of each one detailing game-play. So far, I'm not hearing any compelling arguments for keeping the article in its currently fragmented state. Anyone else feel like weighing-in on this subject? Buck 22:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

We have a poker hands article. It should not be duplicated here. 2005 23:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I moved the game play section to the top, integrated the early paragraphs with it, and clarified the links to the subtopics. --LDC 06:41, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough. The article certainly reads much more clearly and fluidly than it did, prior to your edits, LDC, so thanks very much. Buck 01:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

## References

OK, I've gone through the history with a fine tooth comb and put in the references to the two books that the original author mentioned (doesn't seem to be much added after that, mostly is formatting and removing ridiculous statements like "In the event of an electoral draw, the United States Constitution requires the President to be selected by a single hand of poker." However, I'm still unsure where people are getting their sources of information for the history of poker! Please, can we have the original source material cited so I can put this into the References section? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:40, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

## Andrew Barton quote

Er, do we have a reference for this quote? I Googled "'Andrew Barton'" and various parts of his quote, only to discover that the only pages that contained it were actually from this article! =P That's not very reassuring. --Susurrus 10:04, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• The Barton quote should be removed. It's not authoritative obviously, and also isn't even really true. -- 2005
The Barton quote was removed.--Toms2866 15:05, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

## Is poker a sport?

Should this be in [[Category:Sports]]? Not according to the wikipedia or dictionary.com definitions, it shouldn't. -- ALargeElk | Talk 15:31, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

### Straw poll

• No -- Netoholic 03:36, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• no Jakken 23:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• No. Sports require some degree of agility, dexterity, and/or hand-eye coordination and poker does not. Some people claim that reaction-time card games (like Spit, Slapjack, or Egyptian ratscrew) qualify as sports, but that's another debate ofr another page... Morganfitzp 03:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
• No, but. The definition of sport has changed quite a bit since the word was first used. At one time, the definition did not limit sports to athletic competitions. In fact, hunting and fishing and gambling all were included and there wasn't much going on that we would call sports. I never much understood this "debate." People become indignant as if being called a sport were some kind of cosmic honor. Will in New Haven 14:02, 6 Jan 2007

No. No more then chess is a sport. --Jtd00123 (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

### Discussion

• I'm not sure how it doesn't fall under those definitions, but we certainly don't use them as the final word. Poker is considered a sport by many, so it should be in the category. anthony (see warning)
• Largely, it doesn't fit the notion of "physical activity" or "physical skill" - poker is a mental activity. Otherwise, any skilled activity where there is competition between people - two people seeing who can complete a crossword first, Jeopardy!, pub quizzes, etc. - would also have to be called sports. It's not important enough to get into an edit war over, but I strongly feel it shouldn't be in that category.-- ALargeElk | Talk 15:42, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• There is a lot of physical skill in poker. Much more than those other games you mention. The mental aspect is only part of it. Bluffing and otherwise not giving away your hand takes physical skill. anthony (see warning)
• There's some truth in that. OK, let it stay (I'm up to my personal limit of two reverts anyway) but I won't be upset if someone takes it out again. -- ALargeElk | Talk 15:56, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• It's fun to read this little article - http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lovinger/040614 - (from ESPN which shows poker in the States). Obviously "is poker a sport", like "is chess a sport", is one of those periennal questions with no truly correct answer to satisfy everyone. Unfortunately with categories it is an either/or choice. Despite being a keen poker player, I would say not to include the category unless Anthony really can't bear it that way. Pcb21| Pete 15:43, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• First of all, the edit war is stupid. Now then, the article is already in a sub-category of Category:Games, which covers sports and games. Almost all games involve some physical movement, but sports requires exertion, so that's a silly argument for inclusion in the sports category. -- Netoholic 03:28, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• I agree. The edit war is stupid. Poker is widely regarded as a sport, so it belongs in the sports category. anthony (see warning)

Most of the world considers chess to be a sport. I think the definition of "sport" isn't so hard and fast, there are many qualities that they share, but not all sports share every quality. Judging by recent Olympic standards, the criteria of competition, media and spectator involvement, and monetary dividends seem altogether as important as physical exertion. And poker is actually physically exerting -- this has been measured on players while playing, and try playing for 12-14 hours a day, for several days in a row, see if physical stamina doesn't start to enter the picture. Revolver 07:29, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sports requires exertion, so that's a silly argument for inclusion in the sports category.
Well, that's a silly argument for exclusion. The whole issue which people disagree about is how the term "sport" is defined, or rather, whether the current or most widely accepted definition is the best one or the one that should be applied. Most people arguing poker is a sport are doing this by citing evidence that people have other criteria besides physical exertion to determine what is a "sport". In other words, they are contesting the meaning of the word. Simply replying "sports requires exertion" is kind of like arguing that something should be illegal because it is already against the law. (People actually use the logic with the issue of legality of drugs...) Revolver 05:33, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Netoholic, do you consider chess to be a sport? If not, then the vast majority of the world (at least, the world outside the U.S.) disagrees with you. Revolver 05:36, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
No. I think that when a non-strenuous game like chess becomes very popular, the players seek to elevate the status of the game by calling it a "sport". This is probably only done because they seek to distinguish their game from others. This usage is not in line with many trusted sources for the word "sport" (see above, here's another). Chess is a sophisticated, classic, and popular game, just like poker. -- Netoholic 12:44, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Poker requires much more physical exertion than chess or greyhound racing (and about as much as air racing, auto racing, billiards, bocce, croquet, darts, dogsled racing, golf, ping pong (olympic sport), shooting (olympic sport), or snooker), but I agree with Revolver that the problem is the prescriptivism. Prescriptivism is POV. We should be determining the meaning of the word based on how people use it, not based on what a dictionary says it is. Poker is widely regarded as a sport, so it belongs in the category "Sports". anthony (see warning) 14:38, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"Poker is widely regarded as a sport" - you've said that a couple times now, but have yet to offer an authoritative source which confirms this. Cite your source, because it sounds weasel-y. Now then, here are the results of a poll in which this question was asked of a number of games/activities. The results? When I checked, there were 8,124 votes, and 77.2% said poker is not a sport (the same poll gives chess an 83% total as "not a sport"). This is from a population of sports enthusiasts visiting ESPN.com, I suspect the margin would be even greater if the general population was polled. "Competitive", "high-paying", and "on ESPN" does not a sport make. -- Netoholic 16:48, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
22.8% in a poll of 8,124 people from around the world qualifies as "widely regarded". I never claimed it was a majority, just a significant minority. By the way, are you saying we should remove darts as well, because 51% of people said it wasn't a sport? Categorization shouldn't be voted on. If a significant minority of people seriously claim that something fits into a category, it should be added. anthony (see warning) 17:15, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have been playing poker for over 5 years now and have heard the discussion before on whether or not poker is a sport. Just about anybody can participate in a sport, but the level of physical activity involved goes a long way in determining how good we are in it. Very active sports like football, ice hockey, and baseball are much more difficult for the average person to participate in. Many more people can play a game like golf, but very few are able to play at a really high level. Which brings me to poker. Like many other activities like darts, pool, or chess, poker is more of a fun and pleasurable way to spend time with friends. However when you start moving into the professional levels of these actives it is a much different set of parameters that goes into playing. Just as the average golfer has little chance of beating a Tiger Woods or Ernie Els, the average poker player does not have much of chance sitting with Phil Helmuth, Johnnie Chan, or any of the top-flight poker players. Last of all I would say there is one aspect of poker that moves into the realm of sport and that is tournament play. Sitting and being mentally sharp for multiple hours can be very taxing. It is a test of not only your skills as a poker player but endurance. GMR May 25, 2005

Talk's been dead around here for a while, but if anyone cares a few weeks ago I started writing about 40-50 new articles on poker players. Since establishing them I've started to go back and add more information as I do more in depth research. You may be interested in User:CryptoDerk/poker where I keep track of the articles, their progress, and miscellaneous information. Also, of course, category:Poker players contains all these people as well. CryptoDerk 00:10, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

Good job adding these folks. I'll take a look at all the people articles when I get a chance. 2005

## Fireplace poker

Ok, the part about fireplace poker is really out of place. It's really nothing more than a dictdef, and plus now someone has put in a sentence at the top of the article that says that there's a sentence at the bottom of the article talking about the instrument. The referring sentence is longer than the sentence giving the dictdef of a poker. Because of all this, if there's no overwhelming objection then I think they should be removed in a week or so. Thoughts? Comments? CryptoDerk 14:55, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

• I'd say take out the top quote, or at least certainly take out one or the other. -- 2005
• I'd take out at least the top one, if not both. Are there really so many people who can navigate a wiki & otherwise operate a computer who don't know what a fireplace poker is? Brodo