Talk:Poland

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Port of Gdynia[edit]

@Oliszydlowski, greetings, just wanted to raise a couple points regarding the new image selection in the Economy section. I would suggest that perhaps we should revert back to this image of the Port of Szczecin [1] for two reasons: First, the current image [2] is of the Sea Towers apartment high-rise overlooking the Port of Gdynia, and not quite of the actual port itself (if you look on a map, they are actually in two separate parts of town), which somewhat misses the point, while the original picture showed an actual shipyard in Szczecin. Second, there is no image that represents the area of Szczcin, while the Gdansk-Spopt-Gdynia area has an image of the medical university building. So, perhaps to highlight the West Pomeranian Voivodeship, and keep the image relevant to the economic activity of the maritime industry, we should return to the previous image. --E-960 (talk) 10:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

-I was considering making a talk discussion about the picture and ask whether it is suitable but since no one reverted my edit I thought it is ideal. I haven't noticed that Gdynia is mentioned twice so I think that going back to the previous image is alright. I would actually consider incorporating a new image of the Port of Szczecin into the article. Best Regards as always - Oliszydlowski 12:44, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps we can do a double image frame with both Szczecin and Gdynia, if you are able to find a Port of Gdynia image that is horizontal? This could solve the issue of which port is more noteworthy since both are actually pretty significant, one in the east the other in the west on the Baltic coast. --E-960 (talk) 12:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Oliszydlowski, I included a double image of both port of Szczecin and Gdynia, perhaps this is a workable solution to highlight both ports, and not have to decide which one is more noteworthy. --E-960 (talk) 18:05, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

-Excellent idea with both images. Best Regards. Oliszydlowski 21:22, 6 December 2016 (UTC) I agree with this. Michael Mrygas — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelMrygas (talkcontribs) 23:25, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Map of the Holocaust[edit]

Such map should be in Germany. Now it's only here, supporting anti-Polish steretypes: Germany - the land of successes versus Poland, the land of the Holocaust. Xx236 (talk) 13:55, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

"Metropoles"[edit]

'Metropoles' is not the plural of metropolis. 'Metropolises' is. And in my judgement, the only metropolises in Europe are Istanbul, Moscow and London. Some might argue that Warsaw is one, but I'd disagree. Szczecin certainly is not a metropolis. This is the reason for my last two edits. -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Omissions in WWII section[edit]

Shockingly, Enigma wasn't even mentioned so I just added it. Churchill himself said breaking Enigma shortened the war by two years, and the Brits would not have done that so quickly without the Poles. Reading on, there is not a single mention of Jewish deaths at the hands of Poles either. This does nothing to undermine the anti-Polish stereotypes that (i) Poles are generally in denial that this happened and that (ii) the country of Poland was generally complicit in the Holocaust. For encyclopedic purposes it needs a mention; that mention itself will do something to undermine the stereotypes, because it is generally agreed among historians that less than 2% of Jews killed in the Holocaust were killed by Poles, and those killings were illegal murders according to the Polish Secret State and the Polish Government in Exile, who themselves alerted the Allies to the Holocaust. By the way, before we get into some DIGWUREN-type flame war about the Holocaust, it was actually me, many years ago on Wikipedia, who authored the phrase used below: "Grouped by nationality, Poles represent the largest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust." Here is the passage in question:

During the war, German forces under direct order from Adolf Hitler set up six major extermination camps, all of which operated in the heart of Poland. They included the notorious Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz killing centers. This allowed the Germans to transport the condemned Jews under the guise of resettlement from the Third Reich and across occupied Europe, and systematically murder them in the death camps set up in the Polish areas annexed by Nazi Germany. The Nazi crimes against the Polish nation claimed the lives of 2.9 million Polish Jews,[71] and 2.8 million ethnic Poles,[72] including Polish academics, doctors, lawyers, nobility, priests and numerous others. Since 3.5 million Jews lived in pre-war Poland, Jewish victims make up the largest percentage of all victims of the Nazis' extermination program. It is estimated that, of pre-war Poland's Jewry, approximately 90% were killed. Throughout the occupation, many members of the Armia Krajowa, supported by the Polish government in exile, and millions of ordinary Poles – at great risk to themselves and their families – engaged in rescuing Jews from the Nazi Germans. Grouped by nationality, Poles represent the largest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust. To date, 6,620 Poles have been awarded the title of Righteous Among the Nations by the State of Israel–more than any other nation.[73] Some estimates put the number of Poles involved in rescue efforts at up to 3 million, and credit Poles with sheltering up to 450,000 Jews. Also, some 150,000 Polish civilians were killed by Soviet Communists between 1939 and 1941 during the Soviet Union's occupation of eastern Poland (Kresy), and another estimated 100,000 Poles were killed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) in the regions of Wołyń and Eastern Galicia between 1943 and 1944 in what became known as the Wołyń Massacres. The massacres were part of a vicious ethnic clensing campaign waged by Ukrainian nationalists against the local Polish population in the German-occupied territories of eastern Poland.[74][75]

Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 07:40, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

My take on this addition is that it's just way too much at this point, WWII section is the longest in the article has 4 pictures, yet it only cover about 5 years. Recently, another editor added images of Irena Sendler (taken down since then), and now this new paragraph. We can't just endlessly add more and more to the longest section in this article. Not criticizing the content, but we need to keep WWII section in proportion to the rest of the article. --E-960 (talk) 12:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Per WP:PRESERVE, please work towards WP:CONS editing rather than constantly reverting, which is what leads to edit wars. Nobody owns this article. The WWII section can stay the same length because it contains some lines that can go. It's unreasonable for it to go into as much detail as to include the 'Uhlans' while completely omitting Poland's Enigma-codebreaking at the Polish Cipher Bureau. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Can we get a bit more input form other editors, this is a big change to the section—as with some other issues such as the cartogram picture (discussion above) and so on, there is more stuff being added to the article all the time, reasonably speaking this can't go on forever. --E-960 (talk) 13:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

If we can't resolves this here I'd be happy to post this topic on history discussion pages to have more people chime in. I certainly want input from other editors because it's also dubious that the reason for omitting any mention of Jewish deaths at the hands of Poles in the Holocaust is because we don't have enough space for it. That's even though there are plenty of really irrelevant lines that can be cut for space. As it happens, cutting any mention of infamous events that we wish hadn't happened just feeds today's anti-Polish stereotypes. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a difficult topic no doubt, but if you notice, you have references in the WWII section to 100,000 Poles killed by Ukrainians, 2.7 million Poles killed by Germans, another 100,000 Poles killed by the Soviets, and finally over 3 million Polish Jews killed by the Germans. I'm not sure the culmination of individual incidents such as Jedwabne, Kielce, etc. match the scope of the earlier listed atrocities, again with the topic of WWII in Poland (as with your Enigma reference) you can drill down endlessly to include more and more detail, the same way you could add more and more stuff about Polish efforts to save Jews (as with Irene Sandler picture). --E-960 (talk) 14:09, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Chumchum7, also if you want to get that specific, we could include Poles fighting in North Africa, Jewish soldiers in Anders' Army, collaborationist Jewish Ghetto Police, Cursed Soldiers, etc. the list of WWII topics about Poland could go on and on. Btw, in German media there are instances where the Polish Home Army (AK) is depicted as complicit in the deaths of the Jews ("Our Mothers, Our Fathers" TV series), and it's nothing more than a lie " Joseph Rothschild saying "The Polish Home Army was by and large untainted by collaboration" and adds that "the honor of AK as a whole is beyond reproach"" [1] --E-960 (talk) 14:19, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
E-960 Take it easy. I've been on Wikipedia for nearly 8 years and have worked on very many Poland-related articles without once having been sanctioned. (The veteran Poland-interest community still here will remember this included many hours of my life dealing with an anti-Polish troll who was later banned.) You're not going to get very far on this article if you keep reverting my good-faith edits without making more effort to achieve consensus (I note that you were once blocked for revert-warring). Also, you (i) falsely alleged that I used a "political slogan" in an edit summary and (ii) cast aspersions that I'm making "accusations" and I quote: "do not accuse other editors of trying to hold back information from being included"[3] right after you stated for the record exactly why you don't want the said information being included.[4] Rather than perceiving me as an adversary, step back for a moment and let some others chime in; I'm starting by inviting editors from Talk:History of Poland (1939–45). -Chumchum7 (talk) 20:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Chumchum7, Pls refrain from endlessly listing past accomplishments (no offense, but what was the point of that in a simple content discussion?). Also, I'm not sure what's up with your exaggerated rant directed against me, all just because I reverted your edits, that were rather significant and not discussed. But, just to close your argument, I'm not sure if you noticed over the past year, but I've spent a very significant amount of time re-editing every part of the Poland article, fixing grammar, punctuation, taking out outdated stats, wording fixes, matching images to text, and re-writing incoherent sentences. You can look through all of it, but let me summarize the effort, before that the text was in deplorable condition. --E-960 (talk) 08:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Again, I'd like highlight at least some of the reasons why your recent edits in the WWII section are just too much:

  • First point, the WWII section is the longest in this article (by far), Poland is not WWII-land, we don't need to keep adding more and more detail to this section.
  • Second point, as a practical comparison the Germany article has less about WWII than the Poland article and Germany started the war, perpetrated the Holocaust and occupied all of Europe, also that text (in the Germany article) does not go into a details analysis of what every German did during the war or their prejudices or good deeds, as you are trying to do here, in the Poland article.
  • Final point, please keep in mind this is a general overview article, you are trying to take a specific issues and significantly expand it, again the WWII section is by far the longest, can't just keep adding stuff endlessly, just the basics. --E-960 (talk) 08:39, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Tadeusz Piotrowski, Poland's Holocaust, McFarland & Company, 1997, ISBN 0-7864-0371-3. Google Print, p.88, p.89, p.90

Disruptive editing/info. dump by Chumchum7[edit]

Chumchum7, please curb your enthusiasm, and please stop going on a blitz adding all these minute facts to the Poland articles. Your edits are starting to become disruptive. Recent additions you made regarding the Enigma machine, WWII intelligence, Polish/Jewish relations during the war, traffic deaths in Poland, Poland's public sector vs. other countries, unfriendly Polish tax system, and who is/was gay in Poland are beyond the scope of a high-level article such as this one. And, in the case of the WWII section you are adding even more detail to an already over-blown section, which is by far the longest in the entire article. So, pls stop. --E-960 (talk) 11:53, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

E-960 and WP:OWN[edit]

There are two sides to every story. Take a look at WP:KETTLE and WP:OWN. What could have been a civilized discussion about the relative notability of the WWII Polish intelligence achievements versus say the five vessels of the Polish navy, has got way out of hand and personal. E-960's responses to my contributions have included (i) early assumptions of bad faith (the alleged "accusations" and "political slogans" above), (ii) revert-warring including the removal of sourced content [5] (iii) incivility, calling my addition of Enigma as well as other sourced content, "dumb" [6] and (iv) adversarial, characterizing my contributions of content they don't like as 'disruptive' with a threat to request me being blocked.[7] This stops now. For the record, I no longer assume E-960's good faith. Per WP:SHUN I'm hereby disengaging from the disruptive editor. Nobody gets to own articles and attempt to intimidate new contributors to them in this community; I will review and consider raising behavioral issues at the appropriate noticeboard. Obviously, I'm now not going to respond further here and others can have the last word. -Chumchum7 (talk) 05:21, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Pls review the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, as I've mentioned before the Poland article has been inundated with random facts and trivia that are being continually added, every editor has a pet topic that they want to expand further on this page, unfortunately as with the WWII section (by far the longest section) as an example, you simply can't keep adding more and more details. Pls keep in mind that this is a general purpose article, that should contain only high-level information. --E-960 (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
  • This is silly, just to respond to your antics, I did not call your content "dumb" but said your edits amount to a "data dump" meaning you packed the article with a lot of detailed information. Seriously, not every wacky detail has to get added in to the article — like this statement "As of 2015, 3931 people are killed per year on Poland's roads"... really?? Is this statement a must in an already overloaded country article? --E-960 (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Max Factor[edit]

Hello Oliszydlowski, just wanted to raise a discussion on the Max Factor picture, after a bit of consideration, I'm not sure that MF quite fits the profile of a person who's image should be highlighted on the Poland article. Usually, persons that get that distinction are Polish Kings, the Pope, Piłsudski, Chopin, Koścuszko, etc. Even if they were abroad they identified themselves with Poland like Curie, Conrad or Rubinstein. In the Case of MF, once he left, that was it, and the business empire he started are part of an American experience. So, it's fine to have a statement about him in the text as someone who originated in Poland and achieved a lot, but to include a picture — I'm not sure he has the merits for that. --E-960 (talk) 15:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

It's been replaced :) User:Oliszydlowski, 01:42, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Btw, I still think you addition of Arthur Rubinstein image was an excellent choice, that was overlook and under appreciated. Here is a quick note on Rubinstein: Throughout his life, Rubinstein was deeply attached to Poland. At the inauguration of the United Nations in 1945, Rubinstein showed his Polish patriotism at a concert for the delegates. He began the concert by stating his deep disappointment that the conference did not have a delegation from Poland. Rubinstein later described becoming overwhelmed by a blind fury and angrily pointing out to the public the absence of the Polish flag. --E-960 (talk) 15:48, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Eastern vs. Central Europe[edit]

Some reverts have been happening. I have warned two participants about WP:3RR. Past discussions here on talk have not been able to reach a clear answer about Eastern versus Central. Take a look at Talk:Poland/Archive 7 and search for the word 'central'. In particular, notice Talk:Poland/Archive 7#RfC: Should Poland be described as existing in "Central and Eastern Europe"?. The prior RfC's ruling still stands: "Until or unless decided elsewhere, "Central Europe" and "Eastern Europe" can be used interchangeably to describe Poland." (found at Talk:Poland/Archive 6#RfC: Eastern vs. Central Europe). If you want to make any further article changes on this issue you should consider getting consensus first on the talk page. Erasing either 'Eastern' or 'Central' will probably be opposed, if we go by past discussions. You might guess that people will try to come up with compromise language. EdJohnston (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Łódź[edit]

There is no name of Łódź in the last sentence after the first paragraph. I think it should be 'Poland's capital and largest city is Warsaw. Other cities include Kraków, Łódź, Wrocław, Poznań, Gdańsk and Szczecin'.WIKIP(E)&55 (talk) 17:08, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

While Łódź is one of the largest cities, it is not a metropolis and remains in heavy economic, demographic and social decline. The sentence states "Other cities" not "Other largest cities" therefore I don't think Łódź deserves to be in the lead as other well-known and publicized cities, which actually contribute to the country's economy. Oliszydlowski, 09:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Christian Evangelical[edit]

There's a sentence:

Members of Protestant churches include about 77,500 Lutherans in the Evangelical-Augsburg Church,[7] 23,000 Pentecostals in the Pentecostal Church in Poland, 10,000 Adventists in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and others in smaller Christian Evangelical churches.

There's a discussion on the boldened text. Now, in the article, Christian Evangelical redirects to Evangelicalism. If you click Evangelicalism, you see: Evangelicalism (/ˌiːvænˈdʒɛlɪkəlˌɪzəm/, /ˌɛvən/-), Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism[a] is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity which maintains the belief that the essence of the gospel consists of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement. These are very small denominations, popular in the United States where 30% of the country are Evangelical Protestants/evangelicals and now common in the 21st century worldwide and it also applies to Poland. The "raw" Christian Evangelical has no redirect as no one names evangelical churches that way. A reasonable thing to do would be to change it to evangelical churches or Evangelical Protestant churches.Ernio48 (talk) 15:27, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Keep sentence as is — others in smaller Christian Evangelical churches. this is in reference to Baptist Union of Poland (see external article: "Why Baptists are not Protestants" [8]), and other evangelical churches, which do not consider themselves as protestant. In Poland you have freedom of religion, and unlike in modern Germany you can be something else than Catholic or Lutheran. --E-960 (talk) 15:45, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Simple formula to understand the concept, as the terms are not interchangeable with each other: All Protestants are Evangelicals, not all Evangelicals are Protestants. --E-960 (talk) 16:05, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
This is a case of individual denominations, but generally speaking, these churches are put under a common shild of "Protestant". If you're insisting on this, we can agree on replacing "Christian Evangelical" with simply "Christian". Plus, that's a very untrue about Germany. "All Protestants are Evangelicals, not all Evangelicals are Protestants." - this is totally untrue in the English language; for distinctions made in the English language read: Evangelicalism#Usage or Protestantism#Terminology. Actually: All Evangelicals are Protestants (hence the term "Evangelical Protestant"), not all Protestants are Evangelicals (for example mainline Protestants that include most of Lutherans, Calvinists, etc.).Ernio48 (talk) 17:25, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
This is where you run into problems Ernio48, churches such as the Baptists did not "protest" against Rome, and did not breakaway like the Lutherans, Anglicants or Calvinists. Baptist are more inline with other Christian denominations that only followed the Bible and started out organically from the ground up (not top down). You are simply throwing in a German view of the matter, because that's how in Germany the government views the situation you are either Catholic or Protestant, this is not the view held in the US and Poland among Evangelical Christians. --E-960 (talk) 18:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
So how about replacing it with Christian?Ernio48 (talk) 18:52, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── ..."others in smaller Christian denominations" is fine. --E-960 (talk) 19:00, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Ongoing protests, constitutional crisis, judicial reform controversy[edit]

A lot has been happening in Poland, yet I see no mention of it in the article.Ernio48 (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2017 (UTC)