Talk:Post-traumatic stress disorder

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Requested move 7 July 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move I-82-I | TALK 01:59, 21 July 2020 (UTC)


Posttraumatic stress disorderPost-traumatic stress disorder – Relatively minor thing in the grand scheme, but I believe that a hyphen should be included in the title of this article. While I'm aware that there were previous discussions around the DSM's, ICD's, etc spelling, the actual weight and adaption of these pieces of literature didn't seem to be explored. While the DSM does use the linguistics "Posttraumatic stress disorder", the DSM is used almost exclusively in North America and Western Europe - it's published by the American Psychiatric Association, lists mental disorders only found in Western societies, and is inaccessible to most people not in the profession. On the other hand, the ICD, which uses "Post-traumatic stress disorder" (ICD Online - 6B40), is used much more broadly across much more of the world, is developed by an international consortium (the WHO, not an American company), and is not only more accessible, but is free to access online (icd.who.int/browse11). The current title presents a very strong Western-centric bias and doesn't represent the international nature of Wikipedia by assuming all readers use an American, expensive, inaccessible, and highly criticised piece of literature, rather than the global (literally the World Health Organisation), accessible, and slightly less criticised health publication. Side note, but the DSM does also fail WP:MEDDATE by a couple years. ItsPugle (talk) 13:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

  • Support - seems like a reasonable move. Interstellarity (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TITLEVAR -- "all national varieties of English are acceptable in article titles; Wikipedia does not prefer one in particular. American English spelling should not be respelled to British English spelling, and vice versa." Calidum 15:40, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't think this is an issue of American English spelling, just because it's the spelling that the DSM chooses to use. I'm American and I would never think to spell this without a hyphen. It just looks very odd to me without a hyphen, especially having the two T's together like that. Having said that, google ngrams does seem to indicate that spelling it without a hyphen is more common.[1] Rreagan007 (talk) 19:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I second Rreagan007 - this isn't a thing of regional variations of English. ItsPugle (talk) 11:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the ICD-11 viewed at the link above does not include a hyphen in the name. Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 23:34, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Funky ICD website! It seems like the ICD site is inconsistent with its use of spaces and hyphens. The disorder's title on the site uses a space, but the first line uses a hyphen. Going back to ICD 10 though, which is more arguably more stable (as the ICD-11 only takes over as the default reporting system in 2022), that uses a hyphen. If you wanted to step away from the ICD website though because of this inconsistency, then the WHO (who is most definitely more authoritative then the APA) consistently uses "post-traumatic stress disorder" outside of the ICD (1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). ItsPugle (talk) 11:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
With all due respect, I don't particularly see how a lack of action on an article in 2008 on a completely unrelated disorder is relevant? Since the ICD-10 name was wildly out of touch/not the common reference, that's a different circumstance? I agree that there's no pressing urgency in moving this article, but that shouldn't detract from the actual basis of this RM; that there is a better, more recognised, more common, and more global stylisation. And with those medical naming conventions that you brought up, the DSM is the pretty much the primary text for mental health in just North America and Australia (even the NHS suggests using the DSM as a general guide only), but the ICD is still very much authoritative and conclusive in those regions, as well as everywhere else. The only relevant area where the ICD differs from the DSM is that the ICD is more widely used and more authoritative. If a Chinese, German, South African, or Portuguese medical student, for example, wanted to look at this article (remembering that we're a wiki written in English, not the wiki for only western countries), they're coming from the ICD, not the DSM - I'm not saying we should name this article in pinyin or anything like that, but I think that using eurocentric titles from regional texts instead of what is undoubtably considered a more global English version is a rather clearcut case of eurocentristic bias. And yes, the DSM-VI task force really needs to get a move on, it's about time for an update! ItsPugle (talk) 13:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
To clarify, the article in question in 2008 was Posttraumatic stress disorder; the reference to Tourette syndrome was an argument made in favor of keeping the page per DSM, not per ICD. While I am sensitive to concerns of eurocentrism, many (it is hard to say "most" without systematically attempting to survey them all) diverse, "recent, high-quality, English-language medical sources" (WP:NCMED) omit the hyphen. E.g. The Encyclopedia of Clinical Psychology (2015), Dr. Bremner's Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (2016), the Psychiatric Genomics Consortium Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Group (the authors of the world's largest GWAS study on PTSD), and numerous articles within JAMA Psychiatry. Whether a person is an English speaking German or South African, if they are in the field of psychiatry, I highly doubt that they are not going to be using the world-famous DSM. There's a reason why it has been translated into numerous languages, including Chinese, German, Turkish, etc. As the DSM is the most well-known and authoritative source on this subject, I see no reason to give the ICD precedent over it now (as we have declined to in the past every time this subject has been relitigated).―Biochemistry🙴 17:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • support per NIH[2] --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose, ICD uses hyphen, DSM does not, no need to change now for a hyphen. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support Looks bizarre without a hyphen. GPinkerton (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support because the current name shortens to PSD not PTSD. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 00:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
@Roxy the dog: Tell that to ultraviolet (UV).―Biochemistry🙴 16:52, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
PSD, UV, PTSD, W?F, -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 17:28, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - When it comes to mental disorders, we (English Wikipedia) exhibit a strong preference for American conceptualizations, spelling, diagnostic criteria, etc. See our articles on substance use disorders, including addiction, alcoholism, and other related terms, which exemplify this USA bias.   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 00:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support, per nom, discussion, and Roxy's observation (the common abbreviate name is PTSD not PSD). Randy Kryn (talk) 12:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
@Randy Kryn: Should monoamine oxidase inhibitor be mono-amine oxidase inhibitor because the common abbreviation is "MAOI"?―Biochemistry🙴 17:45, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Never heard of it, whereas the initials PTSD are well known and understood. But I base my i!thing on the nom and discussion. Roxy's comment just stood out as a real-world example of how many people mental-map the name (which is why some people are surprised the article's not already at the proposed title). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
I won't rehash my criticism for the nom then, suffice to point out that the abbreviation "MAOI" is well known and understood in the field of psychiatry (and by the people that take those medications).―Biochemistry🙴 16:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Yep. Good example. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Stavd3 (talk) 06:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Notes, additional comments, and data related to this Requested Move[edit]

I was surprised to discover that the most-searched term per Google Trends is "post traumatic stress disorder".   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 01:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Well I'll be damned! Look at that. I mean, I don't really think that's an option since post is a modifying prefix to traumatic so it more or less needs to be connected to be grammatically correct, but that's really interesting. I wonder if that's just because we're all too lazy to put in a hyphen (I mean, two keys at once!) or if it's because we see post as a descriptor not a modifier 😂 ItsPugle (talk) 12:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Noting that the abbreviation of posttraumatic stress disorder is PTSD, not PSD, is simply not a valid argument. There are many compound words in English that are not abbreviated using only the first letter of each word/prefix/etc—especially in science and medicine. For your reading pleasure, see these examples:

And so on and so forth.―Biochemistry🙴 17:28, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I always thought BS meant something else. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 18:19, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm a fan of good BS myself.―Biochemistry🙴 18:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove old sargent's syndrome merge request?[edit]

Look like it was decided not to merge. Can the tag go from the top of the page? Amousey (they/them pronouns) (talk) 23:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 01:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)