Talk:Prefectures of Greece
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Prefectures of Greece article.|
|WikiProject Greece||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
- 1 Achaea
- 2 Prefecture names
- 3 i don't get it
- 4 Move all to "X Prefecture"?
- 5 Plato and Ancient Greece
- 6 Are prefectures really defunct?
Achaea is listed twice - one under Peloponnesus, one under West Greece. I assume it should be Pelopennesus? Is there something else missing from under West Greece, though? Morwen 17:51, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)
- Achaea is part of the West Greece perifery, which includes areas from Peloponnesus as well. See the map of the Peripheries of Greece. :) Etz Haim 01:44, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I've started the policy page Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Greek), which might help. Obviously, traditional uses will make most of the page irrelevant. The Modern Greek section in particular needs work at the moment. --Nema Fakei 18:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
bold means: I propose to change this prefecture name to the bold name;
italic means: I propose not to use this rarely used traditional name.
Accents are indicated, but I don't propose to use the accents in the article names.
|Attica (also a periphery)||Αττική||Attikí||Attica|
|Evrytania||Ευρυτανία||Evrytanía||Eurytania||Eurytania was not very important in antiquity.|
|Chalcidice||Χαλκιδική||Chalkidikí||Chalcidice||Chalkidiki is also used a lot in English.|
|Heraklion Prefecture||Ηράκλειο||Irákleio||Heraklion/Iraklion||For some reason Heraklion is the common name in English.|
|Kefalonia||Κεφαλλονιά||Kefalloniá||Cephallenia/Cephallonia||Double "l" in the Greek and Latin name.|
|Larissa Prefecture||Λάρισα||Lárisa||Larissa||For some reason Larissa is the common name in English.|
|Magnesia||Μαγνησία||Magnisía||Magnesia||Not so sure about this, maybe leave it at Magnesia because of Magnetes, Magnetism etc.|
Omitted l, traditional?.
Kefalloniá (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
- Markussep 08:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Cephallonia (Latin/traditional name)
Larissa and Magnesia are also established English spellings. Larissa had σσ in ancient Greek. I have no idea why it has been changed. The most common meaning of Magnesia may be Magnesia-on-the-Maeander, but Magnisia/Magnesia is a really silly way of disambiguating the same word.
Wikipedia is inconsistent; but it would seem to make sense to merge Ilia into Elis and then let Elis Prefecture emerge as a subarticle, and likewise with the others. Septentrionalis 16:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- One other thing: prefectures named after a city. Two of them (Karditsa, Florina) are at the city name, and the city is at "X (city), Greece". I'd prefer the other way around, like it is for 16 others now (Arta, Chania, Drama, Ioannina, Kavala, Larissa, Rethymno, Serres, Thessaloniki, Trikala, Grevena, Kastoria, Kozani, Preveza, Xanthi, Kilkis), that are at X Prefecture, while the city is at X. Heraklion has no separate page for the city yet. Markussep 19:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Aitoloakarnanía (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
Aetolia-Acarnania (combined Latin/traditional names)
- We have Aetolia and Acarnania. Septentrionalis 16:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- good point. Markussep 15:24, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
BGN romanization. Moved 28 July.
Evrytanía (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
- Markussep 08:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Eurytania (Latin/traditional name)
BGN or UN/ELOT romanization of ancient Greek name. Moved 28 July.
Fthiótida (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
Phthiotis (Latin/traditional name)
- I disagree that "Phthiotis" is obscure; as the home of Achilles, at least, the established English name. Septentrionalis 16:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Isn't that Phthia? Or is that the same? Markussep 15:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
- OK. Markussep 19:57, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
BGN romanization. Elis is now about the ancient region. It should also be about the ancient city Elis, the capital of the region. Were their names different in ancient Greek? The city was Ήλις, modern name for the ruins: Ήλιδα / Ilida. Best keep the modern prefecture separate, as Elis Prefecture. Moved 29 July.
- Comment: No, they were the same; this is an example of case simplification in Demotic. As with Athens, which included all Attica, the city eventually included the whole region - hence the name. (As far as I can see, the Prefecture is substantially the same as the ancient region; but if separate articles will avoid confusion, go for it.) Septentrionalis 17:24, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Ileía (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
Elis (Latin/traditional name, merge with current Elis)
- Fully support; English name. Septentrionalis 16:12, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Kardítsa (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
- Markussep 08:23, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Please; trying to figure out whether someone is using 'dh to mean δ or θ is just annoying; maybe add a pronunciation note. Septentrionalis 18:30, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
BGN romanization. The mountain range is at Rhodope Mountains, this should be at "Rhodope Prefecture". Moved 27 July.
Rodópi (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
Rhodope (Latin/traditional name, disamb as Rhodope Prefecture)
BGN romanization. Boeotia is used for the ancient region. IMO the prefecture should move to "Boeotia Prefecture". Moved 29 July.
Voiotía (UN/ELOT romanization of modern Greek name)
Boeotia (Latin/traditional name, merge with current Boeotia)
i don't get it
Can someone explain to me about the accented letters (í, ó, etc). I 've read Transliteration of Greek into English and still don't get it, because it is not mentioned there. See also Talk:Aliákmon. MATIA 16:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- What is it you don't get? I guess you're Greek, so you probably know more about monotonic orthography than I do. In transliteration you can keep the accent, but not everyone does that. I guess it would be better to show the accent, maybe also in the article titles. Markussep 17:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Yes I am a Greek, but I don't understand the english part of the transliteration and it seems that some info are missing from the wiki with the rules. I dont understand the letters with accents in English words. MATIA 21:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- In normal English words accents are very rare, AFAIK they're only used in borrowed words like "café", and in poetry to indicate unexpected stress. I see no objection to use the Greek acute accents in English wikipedia, because they're obviously in foreign words (foreign names). It's not in the transliteration scheme yet. Markussep 21:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- Where can I read (external link perhaps?) about UN/ELOT roman. and the above table with the names? I thought that café has that accented e because it's from french. These doesn't seem right to me. MATIA 21:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
- There's a link to the UN/ELOT romanization at the bottom of Transliteration of Greek into English. I made the romanizations of the prefecture names myself, it's pretty straightforward if you have the correct Greek names. About "café", that's exactly what I mean, the word is borrowed from French. Since accents are also used in wikipedia in French, Spanish, Italian, German etc. place names, why not use them for Greek names as well. The only difference is that these other languages have latin alphabet. What doesn't seem right to you?
- Something else you may be able to help with: I've seen at least 4 variant names for Κεφαλλονιά/Κεφαλονιά/Κεφαλλήνια/Κεφαλήνια. Do you know which is the right one, for modern Greek (Κεφαλλήνια was the ancient name I think)? Markussep 07:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tip. I've downloaded guide 1, guide 2, guide 3, and I'll check them. I knew that French words may keep their accents in English, but I haven't heard that before for Greek words. The island is called Κεφαλλονιά and the prefecture is Νομαρχία Κεφαλληνίας. Perhaps you'll be interested in the official site for statistics. On the other hand according to Talk:Aliákmon greek gov. sites don't always use the same transliteration, but I'll get back to you. MATIA 08:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- I've read the UN/ELOT guides (your numbers 1 and 3) again, apparently they keep the accents (at least the monotonic ones). So if we want to really follow this system, we have to show the accents. I'm not sure whether to move all Greek geographic articles to an accented version or not, that should be discussed with more people. Markussep 09:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
My preferred way to do this is to use no accents in the running text, article title, or initial bolded mention, because the names in English don't use accents (and in some cases, like Athens, the English name isn't even a transliteration at all). In the parentheses giving the Greek version, I'll give a more literal transliteration that also has accents. Some examples:
- The Dodecanese (Greek: Δωδεκάνησα, Dodekánisa, meaning "twelve islands") are a group of Greek islands...
- Kerkis or Kerketeus (Greek, Modern: Κέρκης, Kérkis; Ancient: Κερκετεύς, Kerketeús) is an extinct volcano...
--Delirium 22:14, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
- I think it's a choice we have to make, not so much a rule of the English language. Kerkis is a good example, that's a 100% modern Greek name. The use of accents in Greek is like in Spanish (see e.g. León, León, Cádiz): no change of the vowel sound, just stress. However, Spanish has stress rules, only the irregular words get an accent. As you can see in the examples, the accents are shown in the titles there. I can live with both options (accents in title etc., or not), but we should be consistent in that. Markussep 07:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Move all to "X Prefecture"?
To keep things standard, shouldn't all of the articles be moved to an "X Prefecture" format? Right now, most are - but some (like East Attica) aren't. Since there's a sizable Greek community on Wikipedia, I didn't want to just go moving a bunch of articles around. What say you? --Golbez 01:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Plato and Ancient Greece
I want to add a piece concerning Plato's usage of the word nome; nomoi and nomes. The way he uses the words in his 'nomoi' (translated as the laws) is worth a mention. I am not sure if I should place that here, or create a new page. I am hoping for suggestions. --Fan Singh Long (talk) 08:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Are prefectures really defunct?
Perhaps there ought to be a distinction between the prefecture as a geographical unit and the abolished prefectural administration; even though the latter no longer exists, the former continues to enjoy widespread usage, including some official uses. For example, parliamentary constituencies are coterminous with prefectures and use their names, without any connection to local government. (According to the Ministry of Interior (translated from Greek): "The prefectures are designated as constituencies for the election of members of parliament. By exception are divided: the prefecture of Attiki [Attica] into five (5) electoral constituencies [...] the prefecture of Thessaloniki [Thessalonica] into two (2) electoral constituencies".) Waltham, The Duke of 10:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
To draw a parallel with England (and refresh the page, so to speak), the fact that some county councils have been abolished—such as in Berkshire and Cheshire—does not mean that the counties themselves no longer exist. Waltham, The Duke of 17:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well, as administrative entities, the prefectures formally have been abolished. However, due to their long-standing existence, they still have left an imprint in other institutions, including in the parliamentary constituencies and, of course, popular/vernacular usage. --Constantine ✍ 17:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)