Talk:Presiding Patriarch

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Presiding[edit]

COGDEN, you wrote: "Among the duties of the Presiding Patriarch are to preside in council meetings" - can you please clarify this - it sounds like the presiding patriach presides over all/any council meetings in the church, including the council of the Twelve, stake high councils, 1st presidency and presiding bishopric council on disposition, etc. This needs to be clarified and referenced. Hope things are going well. -Visorstuff 21:53, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Asahel Smith[edit]

  While Looking for image I ran across something that has me confused. I good source of image of pre-1930 leadership is

  • Jenson, Andrew (1901). Latter-day Saint biographical encyclopedia: A compilation of biographical sketches of prominent men and women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. 1. Salt Lake City, Utah: The Andrew Jenson History Company (Printed by The Deseret News Press).  External link in |title= (help);

  While reading I came across Asahel Smith.

  It reads, "Smith, Asahel, the fourth Presiding Patriarch of the Church...." and "He was ordained a patriarch by the twelve Apostles in Nauvoo, Ill, Oct 7 1844, and after the rejection of William Smith his nephew in 1845 the patriarchal office according to the hereditary order belonged to Asahel Smith". Additionally, on the same page, John Smith (John Smith (uncle of Joseph Smith)) is described as the fifth Presiding Patriarch, not the fourth as suggested by this page.
  However, Asahel Smith person is missing from the table in the "Chronology of the Presiding Patriarchs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Additionally, Andrew Jenson was an Offical LDS Church Historian so I would think he would know. I do note that Jenson says that due to his heath Asahel "is not known to have taken any active part in the office of presiding patriarch".
  However, I note that Lost Legacy: The Mormon Office of Presiding Patriarch dose list John Smith (uncle of Joseph Smith)) is described as the fourth presiding patriarch and josephsmithpapers.org only list him as a "Patriarch" and not "Presiding Patriarch" as Jenson dose. So was he never set apart? Is that why Lost Legacy and josephsmithpapers.org don't list him? What was his "Status" as "Presiding Patriarch"?--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. Huh. That is very interesting; I have never heard Asahel described as a Presiding Patriarch of the church before. From my reading of Jenson, it sounds like Asahel was set apart to the priesthood office of patriarch but was never set apart as presiding patriarch; but Jenson is also saying by right of heredity the position was Asahel's after William Smith was rejected from the position. I notice the current list has a gap from 1845 to 1849, so perhaps Jenson is saying it was really Asahel who held that position from 1845 until his death in 1848. As far as I know, there is nothing in History of the Church about this, and Asahel is not listed in the Deseret News Church Almanac, which is not an official church publication I guess, but close to it. It would be interesting to see if we could find any other sources other than Jenson on this. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment. Hey, ARTEST4ECHO, I know you stopped by my talk page a bit ago to ask me about this, but I have absolutely, positively no information whatsoever to offer on this particular subject, having never looked into it before. I knew John Smith had occupied that office, but that's absolutely all I know about this subject at all. I'm sorry, but I can't be of any help, here--thanks for asking, though, and best luck in your search! - Ecjmartin (talk) 00:36, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, I realizes that the conventional wisdom is that Asahel was not the Presiding Patriarch, so I have no plans to change the page However, it dose seem strange that Jensen, (someone who should know) uses the term Presiding Patriarch (vs. Patriarch) and (as Good Ol’factory points out) there is a gap from 1844 to 1849, the time that Asahel would have been Presiding Patriarch, if he was.
Just so everyone knows, when I checked this morning the BYU online copy of Latter-day Saint biographical encyclopedia is down. However, the book Church Chronology: A Record of Important Events Pertaining to the History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also by Andrew Jenson, gives the same information.
There must be more to the story. My guess is that he was never "Ordained" as Presiding Patriarch, so the LDS church doesn't consider him a Presiding Patriarch, but he was "by right of heredity" the next in line. It's just interesting. --ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 13:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I saw that IP editor 75.162.226.101 added Asahel Smith to the list. I agree with Good Ol’factory in that his inclusion at this time is inappropriate. Andrew Jenson, wrote several books some saying he was and some saying he wasn't, so he seems to be confused. Therefore I agree that it needs to stay as is, unless something else clarifies it much better.

However, I have found the following:

in support
  • Jenson, Andrew (1914). Church Chronology: A Record of Important Events Pertaining to the History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Deseret News. Retrieved 15 September 2015. He was ordained presiding Patriarch, Feb 18, 1855 in G.S.L City by Pres. Brigham Young and is the present incumbent of the office of presiding Patriarch. 
  • Jenson, Andrew (1901). Latter-day Saint biographical encyclopedia: A compilation of biographical sketches of prominent men and women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. 1. Salt Lake City, Utah: The Andrew Jenson History Company (Printed by The Deseret News Press). p. page 182. the fourth Presiding Patriarch of the Church...." and "He was ordained a patriarch by the twelve Apostles in Nauvoo, Ill, Oct 7 1844, and after the rejection of William Smith his nephew in 1845 the patriarchal office according to the hereditary order belonged to Asahel Smith".  External link in |title= (help);
in opposition

So the four books from Andrew Jenson contradict each other, so there must be more to the story, but as it remains so unclear he should not be included. --- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:14, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

All the sources I have come across (Church Almanac etc.) do not list this individual. Since his status as patriarch is dubious at best, I agree with those who have said he should not be included in this page, unless and until further, better research is done on this person.--Jgstokes (talk) 06:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I do find the situation interesting. How the Official Assistant Church Historian can so contradict himself regarding something that happened such a short time before. He became Assistant Church Historian ca. 1886. All of this happened ca. 1855 or only 31 year later. While I admit, it's not like it is now, where every little thing is written down and stored, I do find it funny that in such a short time a position of such importance at the time can become so confused. It would be like not knowing if congress confirmed Caspar Weinberger Secretary of Defense in 1981 or not.
I did notice I made one mistake above, Lost Legacy: The Mormon Office of Presiding Patriarch dose list Asahel an "Unofficial Presiding Patriarch" what ever that means.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 11:50, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Nice work on finding/comparing those sources. Very interesting that he seems to befuddled about the issue. If I'm not mistaken, the 1850s was when the idea of "stake patriarchs" really got going and established, so perhaps this caused some confusion: was A. Smith the presiding patriarch, or was he just a regular patriarch? Jenson can't seem to settle in these sources. (Interesting also that we discussed this in 2012—I don't even remember!—but that must be where my limited knowledge of A. Smith comes from.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks @Good Olfactory: (I really needed the encouragement today as the last two have been rought).
Ya, Jenson can't seem to settle down into one or the other. Perhaps you are right about the 1850's stake patriarch thing. If I knew anyone in the know, I would ask, not that they would be reliable sources or anything. Again, I just find it interesting and only thought about it because the IP editor tried to add him. As for you forgetting about talking about this in 2012, what do you expect, I'm assuming you have slept since then LOL.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 16:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)