Talk:Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy

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Untitled[edit]

She isn't styled Honourable Lady Ogilvy so I moved back to here, Princess Alexandra of Kent. Astrotrain 20:32, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Has her style changed, then? Proteus (Talk) 20:44, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think she was ever officially styled Hon Lady Ogilvy. She is styled HRH Princess Alexandra per the court circular and the royal.gov.uk website. I can't see why she would add the lowly style of a Lady to her Princess style in any case.

In any case, her husband is dead, and I believe Wikipedia always use the pre-marital name for the title of women when the husband is dead. Astrotrain 20:57, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

No, pre-marital names are used of certain consorts when they themselves are dead. Such as dead queens. I doubt that Alexandra even is one of such consorts who reverses to pre-marital name on basis of that nomenclature rule. (Though I am somewhat against using the unnecessarily lengthening Hon L Ogilvy, let's however be honest how to use the "pre-marital convention".) 217.140.193.123 18:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Debrett's Correct Form has "the Hon. Lady Ogilvy" on the end of her style, and see this page on the Royal website. Princesses always add the "lowly" styles of their husbands on to the end of their Royal styles ("HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs Mark Phillips", for instance). As to your second paragraph, that's simply not true. Proteus (Talk) 21:10, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, I do realise that some sources add Hon Lady Ogilvy to her style. However, Alexandra is always styled HRH Princess Alexandra in the court circular and HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent before her marriage. I was under the belief that Princesses only add peerage titles to their style. Anne was never officially styled Mrs Mark Phillips.

My second point was that we have HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark instead of HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent. Also Wikipedia never use the Hon style in article titles.

Perhaps, we could add her Hon Lady Ogilvy to the introductory paragraph? Astrotrain 19:04, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

The Court Circular often uses shortened versions of styles (it omits "the Rt Hon.", "the Most Hon." and "His/Her Grace" for peers, for instance), and the Princess Royal was indeed formally styled "Her Royal Highness The Princess Anne, Mrs Mark Phillips" between her first marriage and her creation as Princess Royal. "The Honourable" is indeed normally not used in article titles, but then it's normally at the beginning and can be snipped off quite easily - removing it in this case would leave Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy (which is actually what she should be styled, but that's another matter entirely). Princess Marina was at the wrong place. I've moved it. Proteus (Talk) 19:17, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It would be good if here in Wikipedia editors would omit titulary as much as the Court Circular - at least from article headings. IMO there is no need to put everything ionto the heading, a simpler version would be good. 217.140.193.123 18:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

HRH Princess Alexandra - Couture John Kavanagh[edit]

I am very blessed to have in my possesion 2 beautiful couture cocktail dresses worn by HRH. I now live in New Zealand and would dearly love to pass them on to someone who has the know how to preserve them. I have a letter of provenance. I may be travelling soon to the Uk.

banjip2000@paradise.net.nz

Angela Burton formerly of Cambridge

Styles according to London Gazette.[edit]

From her marriage to Angus Ogilvy to his being created a knight in 1989, she was styled "HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs. Angus Ogilvy."

(to view the links, you need Adobe Acrobat Reader)

"The QUEEN has been pleased [...] to re-appoint Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs. Angus Ogilvy, G.C.V.O. (President), to be..."

"PRINCESS ALEXANDRA, THE HONOURABLE MRS. ANGUS OGILVY has been pleased to make the following appointments to Her Royal Highness's household..."

"Her Majesty The QUEEN is graciously pleased to order the following appointment: H.R.H. Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Mrs. Angus Ogilvy, G.C.V.O., ..."

  • Sorry, forgot to show the source for that one. Matjlav 18:21, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Princess Alexandra was styled "HRH Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy" from 1989 to 1997, unlike Proteus claims. The London Gazette refers to her as such:

(again, to view the links, you need Adobe Acrobat Reader)

"To be lieutenants: [...] Captain Robert Neil BLAIR, R.N., Private Secretary to [...] Princess Alexandra, the Honourable Lady Ogilvy"

"Her Majesty The QUEEN has been graciously pleased to give orders [...] for the following appointments: [...] Her Royal Highness Princess Alexandra, the Honourable Lady OGILVY, G.C.V.O., ..."

"PRINCESS ALEXANDRA, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy has been pleased..."

The changes I'm about to make to the style list are quite well-backed, as you can see. If Proteus cites a reliable source to show me otherwise, I'd be glad to hear out his point, and I'm sure we could come to a consensus. But until then, keep it like it is. Matjlav 18:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • I may also want to add that a search for "Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy" returned NO hits. Matjlav 18:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Since Princess Alexandra's late husband was appointed to the Garter she has ALWAYS been offically HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon. Lady Ogilvy not merely Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy.

Queen Brandissima

Image:Alexandra independence.jpg[edit]

This image is not marked as fair use and its source is unavailable. Can its status please be clarified? Johnleemk | Talk 09:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

link with titles[edit]

just putting this here so it wont be lost [1]

Mistake in the arms[edit]

The description of the labels on the coat of arms does not match the illustration (central label is a cross of St. George rather than a heart). I believe the illustration is correct and the description is wrong. 80.216.67.89 14:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Correct name of article[edit]

Articles should never include styles in their title, and this page is at first glance the only one to do so.[2]. WP:NCNT gives some guidance on how to name articles on royals. The section "Other royals" clearly states in point 3: "Do not use styles as part of a title of an article". Now, the simple removal of the style from the article name (changing it to Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy" was reversed as "wrong", even though it is used regularly by reliable sources (e.g. the National Portrait Gallery). I have no particular preference for this title though, I can live just as well with Princess Alexandra of Kent or Princess Alexandra with a disambiguation added. I suppose the people interested in this article can decide what the best name for this article would be, provided that they stick to the Wikipedia guidelines. All suggestions are welcome. Fram (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"Princess Alexandra of Kent" is incorrect, as this was her pre-maritial style. She is now correctly known as "Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy". With Royalty "reliable" sources are often wrong - even the broadsheets and BBC called Diana "Princess Diana". Yes we should not use "HRH" or "HM" in article titles, but to say we shouldn't use "The Honourable" is riduclous. She is not correclty styled "Lady Ogilvy" and it is misleading to to suggest she is. It would be like calling Diana "Princess Diana". She's simply not.--UpDown (talk) 18:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and this is the only one to do so because there is no other member of the British Royal Family (or has there ever been I believe), who was an HRH and married an Honourable - in other words, Alexandra is the only person who has this style. I agree that the younger son of a baron should not have Honourable in their article title, but this is different.--UpDown (talk) 18:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
If she gets "The Honourable" because she married a man who had that style, why didn't she become "The Right Honourable Lady Ogilvy" when he acquired that style a few years before his death? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you. The article of Mark Thatcher is not named "The Honourable Sir Mark Thatcher" either. --Clithering (talk) 11:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Her husband became the Right Honourable because he was appointed to the privy council. The style of privy councillors isn't transferred by marriage like the styles of being the son of a noble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.10.157 (talk) 13:06, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Sir Angus Ogilvy was indeed "The Hon" from birth, but his article is plain Angus Ogilvy. So, why does his wife/widow get "the Hon" in her article title? Remember, we're not debating about anyone's style in real life; just the title of the Wikipedia article about them. Our protocols rule here. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 11:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Anyone? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:01, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
Well, given the lack of response, I've been WP:BOLD and moved it to "Princess Alexandra, Lady Ogilvy". -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
But now it's been moved back. User:DBD, let us please discuss this and sort this issue out once and for all. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:06, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Oh well, if you don't want to defend your position, that's ok by me. I've moved it back to where it should be. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 13:21, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
And now User:DBD has reverted me again, once more without entering into this discussion. I've asked him on his talk page to stop edit warring, and either revert himself or come here and explain his position in a more compelling way than "correct style" (in his edit summary). And I've foreshadowed further action if he does not do this. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────UpDown (talk · contribs) expressed the situation sufficiently. If I'm honest, I did not notice that you JackofOz (talk · contribs) had moved it here several times and believed you had good reason; I simply reacted to a title which was factually inaccurate. For that it seems I owe you an apology. Now, I can very well sympathise with your assertion that Honourable ought generally not to appear in article names, inventing an inaccurate version of Alexandra's title is not the answer. Perhaps we could agree on a compromise? Princess Alexandra of Kent hasn't been correct for 53 years, and I don't think we could argue primary usage... Princess Alexandra (born 1936)? DBD 13:21, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Can you explain to me why this is "inaccurate"? Can you answer my question above: Sir Angus Ogilvy was indeed "The Hon" from birth, but his article is plain Angus Ogilvy. So, why does his wife/widow get "the Hon" in her article title? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:42, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Oh yeah, sure; of course. It's because when we refer to Angus Ogilvy (and create an article at his common name, obeying MOS rules re: The Rt Hon and Sir) we are using a common name rather than a precise style. Contrariwise, Alexandra's article is currently placed at her correct style (less HRH because of MOS article title limitations) in order to dab her from other Princesses Alexandra. If we were attempting instead to put her at her common name, it would be Princess Alexandra (see my above comment). DBD 17:12, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Family Troubles[edit]

This section reads as though it has had part of it cut out - presumably a reference to her daughter Marina's controversial marriage. Unless Marina is to have an article of her own, I think it would be appropriate to update us here on her later life. 86.138.158.107 (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Four years on, with her children now adult, under my new signed-in title, I still think this. Valetude (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

the Airlie remainder[edit]

Angus Ogilvy remained in line to the Earldom of Airlie until his death.

Why is this worth mentioning? It's exceedingly rare to lose such a position. —Tamfang (talk) 20:24, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

New Picture[edit]

Is there a newer picture that can be used? The one currently on the page is almost fifty years old, which hardly makes sense when she is still alive.

Style[edit]

Some - notably Michael De-La-Noy in 'The Honours System' (Allison & Busby, London, 1985, p.44) - contend that her correct style as the daughter of a duke should be Princess Alexandra, Lady Alexandra Ogilvy. (If this is correct the same applies to Princess Anne, whose subsidiary style should be Lady Anne Laurence.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Winehoff (talkcontribs) 09:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

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affair with Philip???[edit]

Does anyone know the guidelines for a credible source? According to Nicholas Davies' "A Woman Who is NOT Amused", a bio of Queen Elizabeth II, the Duke of Edinburgh and Princess Alexandra, the Lady Ogilvy had a sexual affair for thirty or more years. Is this a credible enough source to add to her page or idle gossip? There seeems to be trimming of Wikipedia articles regarding such things to ensure an "offical" line from the Royal Family, regardless of whether the information is credible. What is the standard? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.127.200 (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

"retirement?"[edit]

Judging from the Court Circular, I would say it's reasonably safe to assume the Princess Alexandra has gone into retirement or semi-retirement. She has not had more than a handful of engagements listed in the Circular in the last six months. Similar to her brother, the Duke of Kent, who's recovering from stroke; why do we people think he rode in the Queen's carriage in place of the Duke of Edinburgh? Answer: After a stroke, it's difficult to successfully mount and ride a horse for the length of time necessary. 67.247.138.165 (talk) 02:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Victoria[edit]

Both Princess Beatrice and Princess Victoria were dead by the time Elizabeth II ascended the throne, Beatrice in 1944 and Victoria in 1935. The only senior female royals then were: The Queen, the Queen Mother, the Princess Margaret, the Duchess of Gloucester, the Dowager Duchess of Kent, Princess Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood and Princess Alice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.67.32.161 (talk) 21:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

She was also not nearly 16 years old at the time of her cousin's succession . She was only just 15 years old having passed her birthday by a mere 6 weeks . How is this nearly 16? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.16.6.172 (talk) 23:08, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I've changed it to 15. Thanks! Celia Homeford (talk) 07:00, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

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