Talk:Princess Alice of the United Kingdom

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Hesse in the German Empire[edit]

Before this article is needlessly reverted, Hesse wasn't merely a peerage or title of nobility. It was a sovereign state within the German Empire, which should be viewed as an association rather than a territory. That is the simple version of the reason why the King of Prussia was German Emperor and not Emperor of Germany. The argument that only kingdoms and empires can be sovereign is incorrect. Today we have Luxembourg, Monaco and Liechtenstein. Back then, there were various kingdoms within the Empire. Were they any less sovereign? If so, all of the consorts to those kingdoms ought to be renamed. Charles 18:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion is now at Talk:Hesse-Darmstadt. Charles 17:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Are the articlees of consorts of Grand Dukes titled as consorts of kings; ie. Mary of Teck but Princess Alice of the United Kingdom? Josephine-Charlotte of Belgium was the consort of Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg, and her article is titled without her title. Which way should it be? Prsgoddess187 00:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I would support a change to Alice of the United Kingdom. I don't think that a grand duchy ought to be treated any different from a kingdom or an empire... All were sovereign entities. Charles 02:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I've started a discussion here, maybe we can get a consensus, and move forward. Prsgoddess187 14:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Death.[edit]

When did Alice's husband die? 03:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Vicious —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.234.40.117 (talkcontribs) 23:57, November 27, 2006 (UTC)

Following the link will retrieve March 13, 1892; is there reason to include it here? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:22, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Marriage into the Dutch Royal Family[edit]

It's mentioned in A Stranger in the Hague: The Letters of Queen Sophie of the Netherlands to Lady Malet, 1842–1877 By Sydney Wayne Jackman and A Series of Letters from London Written During the Years 1856, '57, '58, '59 and '60 By George Mifflin Dallas & Julia Dallas that there was a real possiblity that Princess Alice was going to marry William, Prince of Orange (1840–1879), heir to the Dutch throne.

Wondering if there's more information about it like the thoughts of Princess Alice, the Prince of Orange, the British Queen, the Prince Consort, the Dutch Queen, the Dutch King, and the British and Dutch subjects in general. How come it failed and did Alice and William ever have much to do with each other in later life? Cladeal832 (talk) 18:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, William of Orange was considered a suitor, and he came to Windsor Castle a few times. His lifestyle was unacceptable to the moral strictness of Queen Victoria (he lived an extravagant lifestyle in Paris, keeping a mistress, not the thing to do if you wanted Victoria's favour!). That's why it fell through on this occasion and on another occasion, when he tried to marry Alice's sister Princess Helena. Hope this helps. PeterSymonds | talk 20:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for that, very interesting. Just find that whole possible marriage very interesting and wish it was covered more. Can't remember where exactly I read it, but seems it mostly if not entirely the Dutch Queen who was pushing for the marriage, although the Prince Consort was very fond of the idea of a Dutch alliance for a time and William III more or less in different and leaning more towards a Russian alliance as both his mother and wife's mother were daughters of the Russian Emperor. The Prince of Orange went to Russia at some point to check potential brides, yet never mention who that was. Never really got the story from the POV of either Alice or William Cladeal832 (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes perhaps, the Dutch Queen was probably trying to make the best of her children's marriages (some tried, some succeeded). Prince Albert's death in December 1861 has to be taken into account. He had leaned towards Prince Louis of Hesse, but it was never entirely set in stone. When Albert died, his grieving widow took his plans as law, and Alice was married at Osborne a few months later in an atmosphere more appropriate to a funeral. Queen Victoria herself admitted that Louis wasn't "as much of a man"(!) as Frederick (Alice's sister Victoria's husband), but it was Albert's wish and therefore QV's command. If Albert had survived, things may've been different, but that we'll never know. PeterSymonds | talk 20:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Guess it's just because you never really read about the potential marriage in either Alice or William's own words (in general never seen much from Alice and nothing from William) and since William III's first wife was an Anglophile, but none of her 3 sons survived their father and the throne past to Wilhelmina, who was certainly not an Anglophile, shown during the Anglo-Boer War. The current Dutch monarch is the only reigning European monarch that isn't descended from either Queen Victoria or Danish King Christian IX. Cladeal832 (talk) 14:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Aah, sorry, yes, I see what you mean. Well, Alice found him unpalatable (though this was probably more influenced by her parent's already unfavourable judgement). (Packard, J. Victoria's Daughters p. 79). He came to Windsor in 1860, and they were instantly put off by his appearance and was instantly found to be "inappropriate". There were other reasons that I've found that may be of interest. William was smitten with a Catholic Archduchess; an instant turn-off for Victoria, who was distinctly anti-Catholic, and couldn't bear to see her daughter married to someone linked to a Catholic. In fact, when he arrived, Victoria and Albert were resolved to keep him away from the Prince of Wales (Alice's brother, the future Edward VII), who was already the subject of a lot of negative press, and didn't need the "bad example" of a Prince who was courting a Catholic princess (Packard, p. 77). Albert too was, therefore, also against a match with Holland (especially after William's visit). PeterSymonds | talk 16:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Did it mention which Archduchess? Guess a lot of this could have on Talk:William, Prince of Orange, but still he and Alice were connect, even just for a time. Find he is an odd cat of 19th century royalty. No royal, Edward VIII or Sisi or whoever, have completely given-up all royal duties, particularly an heir apparent.Cladeal832 (talk) 03:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


Actually, have you gotten a chance to check this book as well? A Stranger in The Hague gives a good idea of what the Dutch Queen was thinking. On p.1 81 she mentions how she would have prefered Lenchen, but the Queen insists on Alice. Cladeal832 (talk) 04:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Which Queen? There are two females in your sentence; which is the other? PeterSymonds | talk 07:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. It's a letter written by the Dutch Queen and the she would have prefered Lenchen she is referring to the Dutch Queen while the Queen insists on Alice part the Queen refers to Queen VictoriaCladeal832 (talk) 14:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought that's what it was; no probs, just wanted to clarify. Well, I can answer that I think. Queen Victoria wanted to have a married daughter living with her at all times, and Helena took up that role somewhere in 1862. Helena would've been required at home, so if she became a senior Dutch royal, she would inevitably have had to move abroad. This was out of the question for QV; one of the few reasons why Helena was married to Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein was that he had few commitments abroad and therefore had no reason to object to staying in England permanently. If there was a sister to go abroad, it had to be Alice. PeterSymonds | talk 14:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Alice personal relationship with both Kaiser Wihelm II & his mother[edit]

This is also a unique chapter in her life. Mostly to do with the courtship of Willy to her daughter Ella. I've read how Willy very much wanted the match, Ella was a no, his mother was pushing more towards one the Holstein sisters, pretty much of a pity, but what about Alice? Cladeal832 (talk) 15:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually Willy's mother was against the marriage with Augusta. Her status was lowered by the fact that her grandmother was a (mere) countess, and therefore not fit material for the German Imperial line. Vicky changed her mind when she realised how much her son loved Augusta, and only then lobbied the German Emperor on Willy's behalf. As for Alice, I can't find her opinion, but it was pleasing to Vicky before Ella rejected him. When Alice died, Vicky was concerned by Willy's indifference to her death, and Jerrold Packard suggests that the memories of Ella's rejection was a fundamental reason (suggesting that Alice supported her daughter's decision). PeterSymonds | talk 17:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Really, because I was reading this book, Young Wilhelm: The Kaiser's Early Life, 1859-1888 By John C. G. Röhl and it seems pretty research from original letters, and it gives the impression that Willy was dead set on Ella, while Vicky was more keen Dona and when she thought for a while that it wasn't going to happen, she started to try to find alternative husbands for Dona and her sisters. The German Empress didn't understand how come Vicky was against Ella. The Emperor had no idea who Dona was and also wanted a marriage with Ella. But it also sort of gives the impression that Alice has a hand in it. Vicky writes to Lenchen, also pushing the case for her niece by marriage, that Alice did foster Willy's hopes for Ella, but unintentionally. Cladeal832 (talk) 02:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I see your point. Vicky was happy that Willy visited his Hessian relatives while studying at University, and when Ella rejected him, he gave up and moved back to Berlin. Alice probably had hopes for the marriage; she certainly didn't turn Willy away from Darmstadt when it was clear that he wanted Ella. Also, from Alice's point of view, she was worried that Prussia would annex Hesse, and the marriage of her daughter with the grandson of the German Emperor would put to rest her fears. Ella was having none of it; she was the most beautiful Princess in Europe at the time, and didn't want to marry her loud cousin. From a Prussian perspective, Ella would've been more appropriate; Dona was of low birth, which was something the Prussian court took a long time to accept. However, from Willy's point of view, Dona was perfect; she was a bit stupid and dull, and there were no dangers of her upstaging him, something he hated. Willy by this time hated his mother, so Vicky was desperate for the marriage to work. It didn't, and Dona was jealous of Vicky's intelligence, and Vicky was irritated by Dona's dullness. All the same, Dona joined the Anglophobe ranks of the Emperor, Empress, Willy and Bismarck (and most of the Prussian court) against Vicky, and took pleasure in thwarting her plans at every turn. PeterSymonds | talk 16:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually on page 328 of that Young Wilhelm book, it mentions how it was Alice who told all her relatives about Willy wanting to marry Ella. Ch. 14 is all about the courtship and the turn turns one of the Schleswig-Holstein sisters. Also gives so insight into the relationship between Vicky and Alice Cladeal832 (talk) 04:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Roses[edit]

Wondering if there is anything written up about Alice and roses. I know that the red rose was the symbol of the House of Lancaster. Her coat of arms has roses and then there is roses in her Winterhalter portrait. Cladeal832 (talk) 22:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

On a brief look I can't find anything directly related. There probably isn't a connection though. Alice's arms were the same as her siblings', and no other portraits are painted with roses (e.g. this page on portraits held by the Royal Collection). Alexandra of Denmark instituted the Alexandra Rose Day, but that's the only strong connection I can find between a member of the Royal Family from the time and roses. PeterSymonds | talk 22:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Probably right, it nothing more then just that general connection with an English Rose. Cladeal832 (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Piano[edit]

Referring to the time when the Prince Consort was moved to the Blue Room and was fatally ill. Quote: A piano was brought up to the next room and there Princess Alice played Ein feste burg ist unser gott for him; and tears came into his eyes. From p. 279 of Queen Victoria: A Personal History By Christopher Hibbert Cladeal832 (talk) 00:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Possibly more relevant for the Albert article though. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 21:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Mount Alice[edit]

This mountain in British Columbia was named for Princess Alice. Others surrounding Princess Louisa Inlet were named for various members of her family. --KenWalker | Talk 17:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right, but I cannot find a reliable source for that. Feel free to bring them here or add them to the legacy section. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 21:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

GA Status[edit]

This article can easily be brought up to GA status. I'm going to go through it and move things around a little, expanded sections and trim down unnecessary information. Any input, of course, would be much appreciated. Sotakeit (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Princess Alice of the United Kingdom/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Calvin999 (talk · contribs) 14:41, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


Lead
  • The lead is too detailed. Five paragraphs are too many, with two of them being already long. Condensing needs to happen. Fixed
  • (Alice Maud Mary; later Princess Louis of Hesse and Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine; 25 April 1843 – 14 December 1878) → (Alice Maud Mary; 25 April 1843 – 14 December 187. Later Princess Louis of Hesse and Grand Duchess of Hesse and by Rhine) Fixed
  • who survived until 1901. → who died in 1901. Fixed
  • Alice's education was devised by Albert's close friend and adviser, Baron Stockmar. → Okay, and? What was her education? Fixed
  • Like her other siblings, → Cut. Fixed
  • Say that she spent her early childhood between residences first, then her education. Fixed
  • In 1861, → What month? Fixed
  • In 1861, when Prince Albert became ill with typhoid fever, Alice nursed him through his final illness; he died on 14 December. → When her father, Prince Albert, was diagnosed with typhoid fever in 1861, Alice nursed him until his death on 14 December that year. Fixed
  • There shouldn't be any citations in the lead as this is a summary of the entire article. Fixed
  • The Princess's life in Darmstadt was unhappy as a result of impoverishment, family tragedy, and worsening relations with her husband and mother. → You've jumped from her marriage to being unhappy living in Darmstadt, but there's nothing about what happened in between which lead to these things. "...as a result of impoverishment, family tragedy, and worsening relations with her husband and mother"; this should give a brief explanation was to why. I didn't want to go into too much depth, being the lead.
  • became a national one, → Needs rewording. Fixed
  • , for example, → Cut. Fixed
Early life
  • Every sentence should have a citation at the end of it.
  • In her childhood, Alice formed a close relationship with her brother, the Prince of Wales, and her eldest sister, Victoria, the Princess Royal. Victoria's marriage to Prince Frederick of Prussia in 1858 greatly upset her.[12] → There's no point having a one sentence paragraph. Fixed
  • and nursed her through the final illness. → Did she have more than one illness? Fixed
  • During his final illness, → I really don't know why you have phrased it like this? Fixed
Marriage
  • Both of the leading → With both of the leading Fixed
  • Alice was careful not to displease the Queen after her marriage. When the Queen visited the couple at St Claire, Alice tried not to appear "too happy". Despite this, Alice's displays of romantic bliss made the Queen jealous of her daughter's happiness.[31] → Again, why such a short paragraph? Fixed
Princess Louis of Hesse
  • where they breakfasted, →where they had breakfast Fixed
  • A block quote shouldn't have quotation marks in it, as it is already indented, indicating that it is a quote. Fixed
  • who in turn wrote to Victoria, → who in turn wrote to Princess Victoria Fixed
Later life
  • Again, quotation marks should not be present in a block quote. Fixed
  • The following day, Alice wrote a much shorter letter to Louis in which she looked forward to their meeting, and hoped that "my letter did not distress you – but it is better to be quite honest about all one's feelings".[52] → Tack this onto the start of the next paragraph. Fixed
  • Paragraph starting Despite marital problems, Alice remained a strong supporter of her husband, is very long. Fixed
Legacy
  • There's not point making a red link to a non-existent article. Fixed
  • Again, all sentences need citing.
  • Make the Descendants sub-section one paragraph, there's no point having such a short second "paragraph" Fixed
Children
  • Having pink and blue for girls and boys is a nice idea, but people who have difficulty determining and differentiating colour will probably not find this helpful, or possibly notice it at all. I don't think it's necessary. Fixed
References and Citations
  • Citations need not be capitalized Fixed
  • It's called References and citations, but you place citations before references. Fixed
Outcome

On hold for 7 days.  — ₳aron 15:07, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

I've agreed with most of your points and tried to edit the article to satisfy each suggestion. In a couple of sections you suggest adding citations to each sentence. As per WP:CITEDENSE, I've tried to cite for particular points made rather than sentences; some cover several sentences and only need one source.
Let me know if there's anything else you think needs doing before promotion! Thanks. Sotakeit (talk) 08:50, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for being so prompt. I learnt a lot about Alice. Giving her dying son a kiss and contracting the disease herself stuck in my head all evening. Passing.  — ₳aron 08:59, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.