Talk:Princess Maria Carolina of Bourbon

Notability

Is this 10 year old girl notable? She isn't the daughter of a king, she isn't an heiress, and I don't think she's warranted any coverage aside from, perhaps, her birth notice and baptism. Also, the title is wrong. Seven Letters 17:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, there are other articles on royal children who aren't very notable, take Prince Boris of Bulgaria and Prince Umberto of Savoy-Aosta as examples. I know the title is incorrect, when I was creating the article I had the correct title, but when it was submitted, this was the title we got. Actually, her father the head of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies so technically, she is an heiress. There have also been other photos and reports about her online (a quick Google search on her will give you results).  ::PrincessAlice13 (talk) 15:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

ADDED: There was an error in my comment above: yes, she isn't an heiress, as female primogeniture hasn't been/wasn't adopted in the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. But I don't think the fact that she isn't an heiress matters, there are lots of articles on royals and aristocrats who aren't heirs or heiress... (Sorry if my last comments sounded negative, but your comment made me a little annoyed as [even though it's a short one] a lot of research had gone into this article.) PrincessAlice13 (talk) 22:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

A lot of research or not, notability has to be established. One, for instance, could put a lot of research into my life but I do not think I am a particularly notable person. The fact that other articles do not exist does not mean we have to maintain similar non-notable articles. If I knew which ones those all were I would question that too. Seven Letters 21:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I have come across a few articles about figures that could be considered unnotable, so why is this article in particular being raised? It could be argued that Princess Maria Carolina's father is unnotable, yet he has an article, and so do lots of other members of the non-reigning houses. PrincessAlice13 (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

...because I have just happened upon it. I am not picking it out in particular, I have also made note of others. Her father is a dynastic claimant. Seven Letters 03:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

This page reads like a minor social column. It seems long overdue to be converted into a redirect to her father, who probably does have sufficient notability to justify an article. Hunc (talk) 06:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Absolutely agree, redirect needed I think. Nothing here meets any notability requirements. CaribbeanTruth (talk) 15:59, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, I have to say I am quite dissapointed by these remarks. Other royal children who are of the same notibility as Princess Maria Carolina have their own pages. I would be less bothered if the page was just merged rather than having to read critique on something I spent time creating and was proud of. I won't be reading this talk page anymore. --PrincessAlice13 (talk) 13:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Merge to parent, then look carefully at the parent to see if notability exists. These pretend royals articles are quite an embarrassment. (e/c) -Roxy the dog. bark 14:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm looking into merging the article. I put up a speedy deletion request too, but it seems to have disappeared, so I'll make another one.PrincessAlice13 (talk)

@PrincessAlice13: Please don't place the speedy deletion tag on the talk page. If you want to nominate it for speedy, place the tag on the article page. Thanks. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh okay, I didn't know that. I'll go about doing that. PrincessAlice13 (talk)

Her Royal Highness is now 19 years of age and this article should stand. I have restored this article twice already. When she was ten (when this article was first created) sure she was not that notable back then. Since then, things have changed. She has come of age and become an adult and she is an heir apparent in a royal house. She has also taken on royal duties and tasks associated with her position as a duchess. She has also become notable thanks to her social media presence. Since restoring this article I have added to it in order to better reflect what she has been doing. I tend to follow and be knowledgable about Italian royalty myself given my own Italian cultural background and I am very happy to contribute. I ask that this page be allowed to stand because I have added to it and I intend to add more to it. --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 19:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@IndustryPlantCooper:. As your restorations/updates of the article have been reverted you now need to gain concensus to restore a further time. --John B123 (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Hard to gain consensus when the opportunity to even have a discussion is denied. I made my case above and I think the discussion should be reopened. There are pages for her on other wikis in different languages. Why is it not notable on English Wikipedia but notable on the French and even Scottish one? --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@IndustryPlantCooper: How is the opportunity to have a discussion being denied? This is the venue to have such a discussion. Simply changing the page back to how you think it should be is edit warring and could get you blocked. See WP:EW and WP:BRD --John B123 (talk) 23:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Changing the page back gets rid of the talk page and I can’t access it. The page must be up for me or anyone else to access it. --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 03:09, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Changing the page back gets rid of the talk page and I can’t access it. Then how did you post your last message? You could start a WP:RfC for people to give their views, and link to this page. --John B123 (talk) 06:12, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I posted the last message because I reverted the page. I can see that somehow this page is still here after struggling to find it. I would be very happy to re-open the discussion on this topic. --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 14:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to re-establish this page

My position is that this page should be re-estabished. For one, HRH has come of age since the page was first created and later merged. Secondly, she is fulfilling various royal duties. I pointed all this out when I attempted to re-establish the page. I added new content and it was all sourced. In addition, HRH is an heir apparent to a throne. Yes, the throne is defunct. Yes, the headship is disputed, but pages like this exist for other heirs apparent and I think it should be the same deal in this case. --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 14:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

IndustryPlantCooper, All you need to do is establish notability. If you can do that, the page can be re-created, if not, it cannot. It is very straightforward, and the onus to prove notability is on the person who wants the article to be created. Everyone is non-notable until proven notable. This is not a matter for debate until evidence of notability is provided Then the debate is on whether the evidence is sufficient. If you do not understand how notability works on Wikipedia, look it up, it is essential knowledge if you want to create articles, and it is your responsibility to learn it, though you are free to ask for help at the appropriate venues, such as the WP:Teahouse There is no value in arguing the point if you do not even know what the point is, and it is a waste of everyone's time. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 16:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that you list your independent reliable sources, and annotate each one with the reasons why it establishes notability, in terms of the relevant guidance or policy for establishing notability. Cheers,· · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 17:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep. "Is of age" and "fulfilling various royal duties" doesn't establish notability.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:39, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

• Agreed with the above. We need to see what reliable and independent reference material is available in sufficient quantity and depth to establish notability. If such reference material is not available, this should remain a redirect; if you believe it is, it needs to be shown what material it is proposed meets the notability standard. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  Also as a side note, IndustryPlantCooper, the RfC heading/question itself needs to be a neutral statement of what comment is being requested on, such as "Should this page be converted from a redirect into an article?". If you believe the answer is "yes", leave that as your comment on the RfC, but not as the RfC header. Currently, the RfC statement itself is a statement of your own position, which is not appropriate. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• I've removed the RfC tag from this discussion. As noted above, this is not a matter to be decided by RfC, and the RfC opening statement was not neutral. One reasonable path forward would be to add sourced content to Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro and then start a splitting discussion once there's a reasonable demonstration of notability. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll see what I can dig up in regard to other sources, like it has been suggested. Is it okay if I take sources which are in other languages, such as French or Italian? --IndustryPlantCooper (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely, though English-language sources are preferred. See WP:NONENG. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, good strategy, It lets you and others accumulate relevant information in the existing article without the immanent risk of deletion. · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 15:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)