Talk:Principality of Sealand

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Former featured article Principality of Sealand is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 28, 2005.
On this day... Article milestones
Date Process Result
November 7, 2004 Articles for deletion Kept
August 10, 2005 Peer review Reviewed
August 13, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted
July 27, 2006 Featured article review Demoted
November 18, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted
December 21, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
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July 18, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
December 4, 2011 Good article nominee Not listed
On this day... A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 2, 2012.
Current status: Former featured article
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All micronations are unregognized![edit]

This article begins: "The Principality of Sealand is an unrecognized micronation,..." Is it really necessary to point out that it is unregocnized. In my humble opinion this lies in the very concept of a micronation. Not a single one of the world's micronations has ever been regocnized by any of the "real" states. Perhaps some of them can "regonize" or exchange "ambassadors" with each other, but that's just part of the game. --Andhanq (talk) 20:51, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

This was discussed above in the section 'Article treats Sealand as a real country!' (above). The consensus was that 'unrecognised micronation' is redundant but in this case it's worth reiterating the point because the fact that micronation means unrecognised isn't obvious. Taken at face value it simply means a small nation and that could lead to a lot of readers who don't read the article in enough detail believing Sealand and other micronations have the same status as actual countries. 82.68.159.246 (talk) 14:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

House of Bates and other potential drivel.[edit]

I notice this is referenced by and archived copy of the website and a slow newsday piece in a local newspaper. I also see other bits of the article are self referencing. Perhaps if someone is available it might be about time this article was sifted through and the unencyclopaedic self-referenced drivel was lost. --wintonian talk 01:58, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I would like to delete the House of Bates stuff altogether. There are the reference problems mentioned by Wintonian and the matter of "in-universe" content. Regardless, I intend to go deal with the self-referencing links straightaway. Thoughts, anyone? Uberstadt (talk) 19:39, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Last call for anyone who wants to keep the House of Bates section to step forward. So far, consensus seems to be its removal. If nobody else has anything to say, it's going away within 24 hours. Uberstadt (talk) 06:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The House of Bates issue[edit]

Anonymous IP editor User:210.246.41.192 reverted my removal of Principality of Sealand#House of Bates. Their edit summary raised a valid point that is worth discussing to come to an agreement of just how important that section is (although I wish this user had aired their concerns weeks ago when I first inquired on the talk page about its possible deletion). What they said was this: "House of Bates a necessary aspect of understanding Sealand's government and history"

Here are my rebuttals:

1. As I have pointed out before, there is the problem of there being no source for the idea of the Bates family as any kind of formal "House of Bates"; the notion that they are a "self-proclaimed royal house" is accordingly unfounded thus far.

2. Look at the actual content of the section in question. It is a sentence asserting that the House of Bates exists, followed by a family tree. That one sentence is by no means a necessary aspect of understanding Sealand, and I don't really think the family tree is either (unless someone can make a good case for that).

So, anonymous editor and other interested parties, please weigh in. I don't want to make another edit of this sort unless there is actually vocalized consensus about it (rather than implied by silence). Uberstadt (talk) 06:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The sentence and section header should be removed, as the sources provided for the sentence do not support them. The sources do support the family tree. DrKiernan (talk) 07:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
They do indeed. I wonder about the utility of the family tree, though. Uberstadt (talk) 07:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Expert legal opinions should be included on the legality of Sealand's sovereign status[edit]

There are a number of professors of law who have written in support of the legality of Sealand's sovereign status under international law. See the legal opinion of Dr. Walter Leisner, Professor of Law at the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg:

http://principality-of-sealand.eu/pdf/e_opinion_leisner.pdf

And also the opinion of Dr. Béla Vitànyi, professor for public and international law at the University of Njimegen, Netherlands, in 1978:

http://www.principality-of-sealand.eu/archiv/opinion_leisner_e.html

I feel as if these opinions are worthy of note and should be include, albeit briefly, in the article's section on Sealand's legal status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baron Ironside (talkcontribs) 22:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Both of these link to Leisner's paper, by the way. Have Leisner's opinions been published in any peer-reviewed journal? Uberstadt (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I apologise for that, here is the link to the other paper:
http://principality-of-sealand.eu/archiv/opinion_vitanyi_e.html
From a quick search, both seem to be legitimate professors from said universities, however whether their papers have been peer reviewed I am uncertain. Most material online which relates to them seems to be in German and Dutch. Perhaps someone fluent in those languages would be able to track down the original source of these papers? Baron Ironside (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Baron Ironside

More than 24 inline citations[edit]

…are from non-independent sources—information from the "government", directly or indirectly. Moreover, these citations vary in format, and appear redundantly in the reflist, making it appear more substantial formally, that it is. Finally, the vast majority of independent sources here are primary sources, leading this to be an article that is poorly sourced with regard to scholarly, independent perspectives. 71.239.87.100 (talk) 16:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Should include information on the Sealand College of Heralds[edit]

http://www.sealandgov.org/announcements/personalised-coat-of-arms-now-available

Baron Ironside (talk) 00:33, 24 October 2014 (UTC)Baron Ironside

If it isn't discussed by reliable third-party sources, then it shouldn't be included. DrKiernan (talk) 05:50, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, just added this section-

Sealand College of Heraldry[edit]

Established 21st October 2014,the Principality of Sealand established the Sealand College of Heraldry to design and register coats of arms. The Prince Regent's coat of arms is the first personal arms to be issued by the Sealand College of Heraldry. Thereafter the heraldry office has offered people the chance to have their own personalised coats of arms tailored specifically for them. The current Principal Heraldic Artist is Leanna McAlpine and Officer of Arms, Anthony Smith. Each coat of arms is registered with the Sealand College of Heraldry and approved by the Director of the Sealand College of Heralds, Prince James of Sealand.

HOWEVER, I do not know how to add photos of 1. The College of Heraldry Coat of Arms and 2. The Coat of Arms for the Prince Regent. Any one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.104.186.131 (talkcontribs)

  • You don't. Look, first off the text is a copyright violation; it's just slightly modified to change tense from the sealand website. Second, it's completely promotional in nature. Third, it's not reliably sourced to secondary sources. This has now twice been removed from this article. Please stop adding it without addressing the serious issues I've noted. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree completely. I've just said more or less the same thing on another talk page. The article shouldn't be used to promote Sealand, we need independent sources. Doug Weller talk 18:04, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Gents, as this is the second time you have erased the data I in-putted, I have to assume I the data was incorrectly admitted. Albeit there actually is a service that the micronation Sealand provide called Coats of Arms issued by the Sealand College of Heraldry. There appears to be a block to permitting the freedom of sharing information via your actions and those of others. I will therefore resign myself to looking at alternative places to share what information there is, as it does appear that there is some odd policing going on here for reasons I am unable to fathom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.14.94.31 (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Constitutional Monarchy?[edit]

Without a group of parliament members or government, can it really be considered a constitutional monarchy? Absolute monarchy would be more fitting since Michael Bates is the only ruler (if a giant table randomly sitting in the middle of water can really be considered to have a ruler).Cebr1979 (talk) 07:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I've added a {{citation needed}} to this hogwashstatement, if the Prince can't afford to publish his constitution online maybe wikisource can offer the web space for a preamble with seven sections. –Be..anyone (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Population[edit]

The amount of Citizens is probably 50+, but that's not the population. The population is in fact usually zero as nobody is living there permanently any longer. --83.7.25.249 (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Popularion for Sealand is 27 as of 2002 (i found on Google)--46.130.144.221 (talk) 23:09, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
+1, let's delete misleading unsourced info. –Be..anyone (talk) 07:53, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Where do they live? On that small platform? --2.245.155.8 (talk) 03:47, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Language[edit]

The language of the Principality of Sealand is English, that can be confirmed. However, after having watched a couple videos, one being Prince Michael being interviewed, I begun to notice pronunciations which Prince Michael used which were a bit unlike Standard English, or the English which his family came from, Essex, I believe. For example, he tends to use the Dutch "de" instead of English "the", (which is the Dutch word for the). He tends to use the Voiceless dental fricative /θ/, in place of a Voiced dental fricative /ð/. The letter d tends to be dropped from the end of words such as the word and.

I've made a brief edit of this trying to link the youtube video; the source; in the References Section however there was a mistake; and I'm not an expert at referencing. Could somebody please fix it and add the link to the references, please? Thank you.

178.78.105.192 (talk) 16:11, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

This is original research, so I have removed it. (Hohum @) 16:18, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

AfD relevant to this article[edit]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/E Mare Libertas (song). Doug Weller talk 21:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Wrong Latin in motto... (For those who care)[edit]

Hi there, just wanted to point out that, given that "e(x)" goes with the ablative case and the ablative singular of "mare" is "mari", the Latin in the motto should be "E mari Libertas", not "E mare Libertas". As we are all aware that His Royal Highness' family is century-old, meaning that there might be some sort of medieval history behind this "e mare" which I am not aware of and from which the current motto is derived, let it be on my head! But if His Royal Highness cares about the proper Latin in his nation's most renowned motto, I suggest he changed it for the sake of his people.

Explanation: Mare is a neutral word of the third declension. In Latin third declension words, generally speaking, have the ablative ending "-e". But since mare (stem: mar-) ends with an -e in the nominative case and on top of that is a neutral word, meaning that the accusative case is also spelled "mare" (as opposed to (the hypothetical masculine/feminine) "marem"), the regular "mare" exceptionally becomes "mari" in order to distinguish the form of the ablative case from the nominative and accusative cases. This is as far classical Latin goes, anyways.

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Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2017[edit]

Please change 'platform' to 'gun platform' RullRatbwan (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@RullRatbwan: Not done: It is currently just a platform. The first paragraph does already adequately describe its former purpose as a anti-aircraft defensive gun platform. Both the current and historical status seem reasonably covered as far as that is concerned, so I don't see a need to change it. Murph9000 (talk) 14:48, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Contradictions[edit]

The articles on Sealand seem to contradict each other and themselves at points, probably due to unclear sources. For one thing, this article describes Michael Bates as living in Essex and Suffolk in the present tense different stages. Regarding the 1978 drama, the fullest account seems to be that Michael was first captured, then released away from the fort, before playing a role in the successful recapture mission, which he relates as "The biggest adrenaline rush of my life sliding down a rope from a hovering helicopter 100 ft above the rough North Sea with a shotgun hanging around my neck". This article on the other hand has him personally fighting back within the site, while the biographical article on Paddy Roy Bates describes Michael as hostage while his father "and others" launched the rescue mission. The Independent's obitury of "Princess" Joan and the Telegraph's obitury of the founding "Prince" both suggest Michael was taken prisoner in the course of the Bates family's attempt to retake the tower. A lot of sources also name the accused in the subsequent treason trial as Achenbach's lawyer, Gernot Pütz, not him personally. Billwilson5060 (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)