Talk:Justice Party (South Korea)

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Social democracy dispute in artcle Justice Party[edit]

See the history in my talk page. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 03:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I can't see what the issue is here. The party calls itself a social democratic party. Your whole spiel about "Social democracy of Korean style (한국형 사민주의) is not Social democracy" is unconvincing. Indeed, Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought it is not for you to decide whether "Social democracy of Korean style (한국형 사민주의) is not Social democracy". I read the articles you linked - my Korean is mediocre, so bare with me- and it seems like some of them are arguing that the party is Marxist-Leninist? “지금은 사라진 구 통합진보당은 아예 사민주의랑은 거리가 있고, 정의당은 사민주의를 포기한 사람들이다. 통진당은 주체사상이고, 정의당은 마르크스-레닌주의라는 차이가 있을 뿐이다.”[1] My problem with using "Reformism" in describing political parties ideology is that it barely means anything in political context. It doesn't really matter what it means in South Korean terminology, you can edit Korean Wikipedia if you so wish. It is Wikipedia's function to convey information and "Reformism" barely has any meaning, so is "Progressivism" btw, unless you are describing political party from 19th century, those words do not really convey any information. I'm honestly baffled by this apparent extreme adherence to social democratic ideology you are showing at the latter part of the talk page. Seems like you are the one who keeps changing people's edit to fit within your own conception of how the page should be. Almost every other Wikipedia page of the party describes it as "Social Democratic". Sadfccolmalme (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
See the User talk:Garam#Justice Party (South Korea). Thanks. --Garam (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

A) So-called reformism was a label used by the revolutionary marxists during the Second International to denigrate social democratic currents headed by Bernstein in SPD. Usage of "Reformism" as a distinct ideology from the social democratic position; especially in left-wing context, is simply not done. It's like putting "tankie" instead of Marxist-Leninism or "trot" instead of Trotskyism when describing revolutionary left ideologies.

B) My Korean is not perfect but the article cited to support the existence of an internal faction that supports Democratic Socialism clearly states that this "Progressive Left" group calls for Democratic Socialist platform several times in the article. You literally read only the headline. From the article: "‘진보좌파’는 창립선언문에서 민주적 사회주의 노선을 견지하면서 정의당이 진보 시민과 노동을 결합하여 노동 중심의 진보좌파 정당으로 정의당이 발전할 수 있도록 노력하겠다고 밝히고 있다." "하나, 우리 모임은 대한민국을 헬조선으로 만들고 있는 시장 만능의 신자유주의를 극복하고 노동 중심의 민주주의와 다양한 소수자의 권리를 구현하는 연대적 평등사회 건설을 지향하는 ‘민주적 사회주의’ 노선을 견지할 것입니다." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.232.11 (talk) 03:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

@172.58.232.11: I think, you still have not read previous talk. Already I said in previous talk, the opinions like "A)" in your opinion (e.g. Usage of "Reformism" as a distinct ideology from the social democratic position in South Korea) is original research. And I also said in previous talk,
Finally, "Reformism" means "사회개량주의", and "개혁주의" in South Korea. I don't know why do you think ill of "Reformism" (as "사회개량주의"). And the ideology of Justice Party is surely 'reformism' and "progressivism" in their platform (Please, search the "개혁" & "진보", "혁신" in the link). — the previous talk in my talk page
For "B)" in your opinion, Justice Party have so many opinion groups and internal factions. But according to Redian, "Jinbojwapa" (lit. Progressive Left; 진보좌파) is opinion group, not internal faction. So, we cannot add the "Jinbojwapa"'s ideology.
For this reasons, I was revert your edits. Please do not revert it before this talk has finished. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

LOL Just read the entirety of the debate - that you've deleted- and I'm not even doing that. This is the worst case of railroading and goal-post moving that I've ever seen.I don't know what kind of obsession you have with this party, but not a good look, mate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1382:8A:18F1:FE4B:DD16:A787 (talk) 16:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I think, it is prejudice for me. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 17:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Spring3390: Do you remember this? Then, please don't revert my edits. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 19:04, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that a lot more references has been presented- including third-party academic literature- and you've been simply rejecting them and enforcing quite narrow deifinition that only you seem to approve atm. Also, seeing that the page has "Expand Korean" tag, I tried to translate the Korean article. It seems like there has been a long concensus in including Social Democracy among the party's ideology in the Korean page. Seeing the Korean page would have higher scrutiny for their own page for the "Justice Party" than english stub article, it seems more prudent to defer judgement on the Korean editors. Spring3390 (talk) 19:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Spring3390: Where is "academic literature" for "Justice Party", not some people in that party? I asked all the time, "where is source?". And Korean wikipedia cannot do as source. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)