Talk:Proposed flags of Taiwan

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Prologue[edit]

Removed from articlespace: [[:Image:Flag of Taiwan.svg|thumb|250px|FIAV 51 Flag ratio: 2:3
Proposed future flag for the Republic of Taiwan.]]

The Flag of Taiwan is controversial, used by the Taiwan independence movement as a proposed flag for a future Republic of Taiwan. It is the counterpart to the Flag of the Republic of China, which is the flag the Chinese government would prefer Taiwan used.

The People's Republic of China has criticized Taiwan independence groups for wishing to change or abolish the current Republic of China flag, which is a symbol often equated with mainland Chinese nationalism, and has implied that legal steps to do so would bring harsh, and possibly military, action from the PRC. Not changing the flag of the ROC is one of the elements of the four noes and one without declaration made by Chen Shui-bian.

First, I don't think the PRC prefers the ROC flag either. That flag remains banned in mainland China, at the Olympic games, and elsewhere and implies the existence of a government it claims has fallen defunct. Second, the PRC did not explicitly claim that changing the flag would bring about an invasion. Third, the independence flag doesn't seem to be widely used anywhere as it is not generally seen in pro-independence rallies.

"flag of Taiwan" just about always refers to flag of the Republic of China in English. --Jiang 05:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

  1. See Flag of the Republic of China article where it states the bit about it was also a chinese nationalism flag prior to the PRC.
  2. I quoted directly from the Flag of the Republic of China article about what the PRC said, which is sourced..
  3. It's around a lot on the internet, just try searching for "taiwan independence" or "taiwan independence flag" on Google --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:20, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I wrote most of the flag of the Republic of China article. Nowhere does it claim that this flag is it's "counterpart" or that the PRC would prefer the flag of the Republic of China being used. If you would like to make such claims, then please provide the direct quotes. Just because the PRC has a "more favorable view" does not mean it prefers it. And the idea that this proposed flag is somehow a "counterpart" to the ROC flag is just unfounded and ridiculous.

While this flag has proposed itself to be associated with Taiwan independence, there is no consensus that this will become the national flag of Taiwan. This flag had its hype when it was first created 10 years ago, but other designs have propped up and this flag is not usually seen in rallies.

Furthermore, "flag of Taiwan" in English implies "flag of the Republic of China". If you would like to start an article at proposed flag of the Republic of Taiwan (or something like that), then go ahead, but to not redirect this article would be to mislead people not aware of the political situation.--Jiang 05:30, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

It does not "imply" "flag of republic of china" at alll.
And yes, here is a direct quote:
Flag of the Republic of China
However, the symbolism of the flag began to shift in the early 21st century as there was a warming of relations between the pan-Blue coalition in Taiwan and the Communist Party of China on mainland China. The flag of the Republic of China has begun to symbolize the existence of a past and possibly future unified China, and as such the government of the PRC has made it clear that for Taiwan to change the flag would be a major provocation in favor of Taiwan independence. The ambiguity surrounding the flag was made apparent during the trip of Kuomintang [NB for readers: Taiwan->China unification supporting party) Chairman Lien Chan to mainland China in April 2005, during which the flag was very prominently displayed at ceremonies honoring Sun Yat-Sen at which both KMT party officials and government officials from the PRC were in attendance.
The use of the flag in Taiwan reflects the controversy behind its symbolism. Although moderate supporters of Taiwan independence, such as President Chen Shui-bian, will display and salute the flag on formal official state occasions, it is never seen at political rallies of the Democratic Progressive Party. This is not only because of its association with mainland China but also because the flag contains design elements of the KMT party flag. By contrast, the ROC flag is always extremely prominent at political rallies of the pan-Blue coalition.
--Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does imply "flag of the Republic of China". A google search for "flag of Taiwan" show all but 3 of the 16 images on the first page display the "flag of the Republic of China" and none of the 16 images display "flag of Taiwan". The first page displayed on google for the same search shows the "flag of the Republic of China" as does the no. 2 CIA link (and it's even titled "flag of Taiwan") And if you want to quote wikipedia: "Though the flag of the Republic of China is commonly known in English as the flag of Taiwan ..."

The statement "the government of the PRC has made it clear that for Taiwan to change the flag would be a major provocation in favor of Taiwan independence" isn't close to implying that it "would bring harsh, and possibly military, action from the PRC." The PRC press calls Chen Shui-bian's speeches to be "provocations" all the time. The question of whether they will attack is up in the air. They never said they would on the basis of a flag change. And they probably would not.

The fact that I have to point this out to you is a bit said when you claim you actually wrote it:

Flag of the Republic of China#Symbolism:

"One irony is that given the association of the flag with Chinese nationalism in opposition to Taiwan independence, the ROC flag has found an unexpected ally in the People's Republic of China. The PRC has criticized Taiwan independence groups for wishing to change or abolish the ROC flag, and has implied that legal steps to do so would bring harsh, and possibly military, action from the PRC. Not changing the flag of the ROC is one of the elements of the four noes and one without declaration made by Chen Shui-bian."
then i will change the article in the absence of verifibility. --Jiang 06:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The proposed flag of the Republic of Taiwan (Image:Flag of Taiwan.svg) is not commonly seen in rallies of the pan-green coalition. It is simply not widely accepted. The DPP/TSU commonly fly their own political banners at rallies, not Image:Flag of Taiwan.svg. The bolded quote you provided says nothing about Image:Flag of Taiwan.svg. The flag in question just isnt commonly used at all.--Jiang 05:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

It's commonly used by the independence movement as per the articles where it was already there before any editing by me. It may not be used by the individual parties, but it's definitely used as the flag for a possible Republic of Taiwan: Other flags are just for individual political parties. --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This is not the flag of Taiwan as the article implies. It is a proposed flag of Taiwan. Please understand the difference. It's not that hard to understancd. You are free to start an article article on the five or so flags that are being proposed for the proposed Republic of Taiwan. To call this the flag of Taiwan is just outright wrong and misleading. --Jiang 06:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, the last paragraph here is a direct quote from the Flag of the Republic of China article -
Just above the USES section. If you have a fact dispute with this article, maybe you should have one with that too: But it seems you're just objecting to the existence of this article. --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:37, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no "uses" section at Flag of the People's Republic of China.--Jiang 06:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Flag of the Republic of China --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 06:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I can't find the quote. --Jiang 06:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Try reading. It helps. As I already said, just above the USES section. --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 06:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
"However, the presence of the ROC flag in Taiwan also distinguishes the fact that Taiwan and ROC territorial islands elsewhere fall under jursidiction of a government separate from that of mainland China, the People's Republic of China. The hoisting of the ROC flag is even advocated by the most extreme Taiwanese independence supporters, such as Taiwan Solidarity Union members when emphasizing the separate and independently governed systems and territories of the Republic of China on Taiwan and the People's Republic of China on the Mainland." is nowhere to be found in this article. --Jiang 06:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Just a point to other readers, User:Jiang the one debating this actually has a photograph of a man with a sign in Chinese on his user page at the time I'm writing this: Image:Happy Happy Happy.jpg (cropped version of Image:Chinese nationalism.jpg) stating saying that the man shown is "spreading the truth". In English it says:

":Recognising a thief (Chen Shui-bien) as a father (President)

(Chen's or Taiwan's) Notoriety will abide for ten thousand years! (Chinese idiom)
Bien (Chen) is an apocalyptic star (or Chinese Nemesis) ->
The Island of Taiwan is out of luck! (Should) Chinese unification (occur),
the Chinese will enjoy glory, prestige, joy, and unity!
The (election of a pro-independence President is the) Cause of the Earthquake (the 1999 Chi-Chi earthquake in Taiwan)"

So yeah, Jiang's hardly the most unbiased person here, he's got racist propaganda on his page. -_- --Mistress Selina Kyle (Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 05:45, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You have a very bad sense of humor. I think Jiang keeps the clown there for your amusement. BlueShirts 00:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

TV Reference[edit]

I think there should be a mention of the flag's referrence in the hit drama [The West Wing] I think it is very important. tduwhs

Which episode? – Kaihsu (talk) 10:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Season 6, Episode 7: A Change Is Gonna Come. CH14 (talk) 10:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this the hearts-in-harmony flag, or some other design? I have added the reference. – Kaihsu (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Wrong description[edit]

I removed the anonymous entry "pictured above, it is formed by a white Canadian pale on green with the eight-petal chrysanthemum in the center" because it is incorrect. – Kaihsu 20:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it disturbing that the "hearts" device is described as a "chrysanthemum" passim. It is not a chrysanthemum. – Kaihsu 20:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is that description incorrect? It is indeed a white on green Canadian pale, and there are indeed 8 "petals" of some kind in its center. 70.20.136.170 15:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

They are not designed to be chrysanthemum petals, but eight "half-heart devices" to signify selflessness and the ethnic groups of Taiwan. A chrysanthemum has more than 8 petals. I have rewritten the paragraph. – Kaihsu 18:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I am no artist, but I have to say --- The center of the flag, it looks like a Cherry Blossom to me. TheAsianGURU (talk) 07:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Cherry blossom.
No, it does not. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ratio?[edit]

Anyone know the ratio of the flag? --Edmund the King of the Woods! 11:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure. It would be nice if someone could find the original construction sheet. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Civil flag vs state flag[edit]

In fact, it is still possible to use both the flag of the unselfish hearts and the flag of the Republic of China together in the same country at the same time, with this flag being the civil flag (viz. the flag for the peoples of Taiwan) and with the ROC flag being the state flag (viz. the flag of the state on Taiwan, i.e. with effective jurisdiction in the country). The state flag can be changed with a regime change. But most people would not know the distinction between the civil and the state flags, sadly. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Remove this sentence[edit]

A difficulty in consensus is the sensitivity of colors: while Pan-Green supporters mostly cannot accept a blue color on a new flag, Pan-Blue supporters do not desire seeing a predominantly green-colored flag either.

I removed it because any one that supports Pan-Blue is likely not to agree to any new flag at all which means that discussing the design is irrelevant.

Roadrunner (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Taiwan SAR[edit]

Are there any proposed 'drafts' for a flag for a possible Taiwan SAR? Mathpianist93 (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I found this fictitious one circulating on the web: File:Flag_of_TAIWAN_SAR.png. – Kaihsu (talk) 04:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Bad flag designs[edit]

The North American Vexillological Association suggested 5 Basic Principles of Flag Design. The 908 flag fails rule 1, 3 and 4. The World Taiwanese Congress one fails rule 1, though many well-known flags also use maps e.g. Cyprus, UN, Kosovo. I would say Donald Liu’s design is the best among the 3 prominent proposals. – Kaihsu (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

In this video of a flag-raising ceremony organized by the 908 Movement in September 2013, it appears that they raised the flag proposed by the World Taiwanese Congress and held their own banner (the one with the 3 characters and colour gradient; it is not really a flag) as the banner of the movement. The movement probably never intended for the banner to be the flag of a republic. Maybe the article needs to be adjusted accordingly? See also these photographs of a meeting of the 908 Movement.Kaihsu (talk) 15:54, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

other nice flag[edit]

There was another nice design which consisted of "Hearts in Harmony". But the background was light green, and the hearts were bright red. Some people say the bright red hurts their eyes. (I don't see how.) They also suggested a dark red for the hearts. That doesn't look right. Who agrees with me on the bright red hearts against a light green background?158.222.165.116 (talk) 08:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Vexillologically speaking, the shade of red and green does not matter so much. – Kaihsu (talk) 20:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

See Tincture (heraldry). – Kaihsu (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2016 (UTC)