|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Proselyte article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- Proselytes (3 syl.) among Jewish writers were of two kinds- viz. "The proselyte of righteousness" and the "Proselyte of the gate." The former submitted to circumcision and conformed to the laws of Moses. The latter abstained from offering sacrifice to heathen gods, and from working on the Sabbath. "The Proselyte that is within thy gate" = the Proselyte of the gate. "I must confess that his society was at first irksome; but ... I now have hope that he may become a Proselyte of the gate."- Eldad the Pilgrim, ch. iii. Source: Brewer's Dictionary.
- Catholics ... are not identified with Gentiles, but regarded as "Proselytes of the gates" (Isaac b. Sheshet, Responsa, No. 119) —Jewish Encyclopaedia 1901-1906 under Intermarriage
According to the Jewish assembly's answer to Napoleon's third question: The Talmud declares formally that modern nations are not to be considered as nations in idolatry, since they worship the God of heaven and earth. Moreover, Israelites are not forbidden from marrying any other than the 7 Canaanite nations, Lotite men, and Egyptians to the third generation. Accordingly, there have been, at several periods, intermarriages between Jews and Christians (excepting Copts until the 3rd Generation). However, Talmud, requires religious ceremonies called Kiduschim, with the benediction used in such cases. This could not be done towards persons who would not both of them consider these ceremonies as sacred. No marriage can be religiously valid unless these ceremonies have been performed. Moreover, Talmud requires Jews to have a Get in order to marry again. No Kiddish = no Get. But if a country forbids divorce, then a Get is useless anyway although if any couple could separate without a Get they would only be considered married civilly but not Talmudically. Therefore, even though marriages with Proselytes of the gates is permitted, Talmudists do not marry non-Talmudists.188.8.131.52 15:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
The other two articles are in vioolation of Wikipedia naming conventions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28use_English%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28common_names%29 does this need any more discussion?Budo 17:40, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
- "only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." --Oldak Quill 12:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you for the very useful comment. Who can argue that on the massive body of published works available on the topic of Proselytes/Gerim in English that the Hebrew word is more common and better understood by the general public than the English word? Even the Jewish encyclopedia uses the English word in favour of the Hebrew.Budo 00:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
For clarity, it should be added to texxt that Hebrew Ger in Scripture does not always/may not mean Prostyle. Review of Hebrew concordance vs translations shows the selectic translation of Ger as Proselyte in, for example Artscroll publications (vs more commen "Stranger" in Jewish Publication Society. Why Ger is often translated two ways withon one chapter, or even one Hebrew sentence in Artscroll Torah publications makes on questions the scholarship of this translation in may context. This alternate translation of Ger should be mentioned in the article for scholarly accuracy.
A Ger Toshav is completely different from a Ger Tzedek. A Gar Tzedek ceases from being a gentile and becomes a Jew. A Ger Toshav is always, no matter what he or she may believe, a Gar Toshave. Simply put a Ger Toshav simply means "resident Alien." Of course the Rambam indicates in the Mishnah Torah that someone is called a Ger Toshav no matter where they live in the world so long as they observe the Seven Noachide Laws. However, this is only in a time when the Jubilee is once again being observed in the land of Israel. The Jubillee is still not being observed in Israel so from a halachic standpoint Gariim Toshavim do not exist. The discussion of Ger Toshav would be more appropriate under the b'nei noah section than under proselyte.
I vote for reject. If anything, most people will be more familiar with the term Proselyte. That's the term used in the Jewish Encyclopedia, Catholic Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica. But that doesn't mean the Ger articles should be deleted or merged here, leave them for the technical Jewish issues.184.108.40.206 22:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I vote go for it! Proselyte is a word needing clarification in the English language anyway as its use it frequently bastardized, so a proper article on its Jewish origin from the Ger Toshav would be very helpful.220.127.116.11 06:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Merge. 18.104.22.168 15:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I googled "noachides" and "wikipedia" and was directed to this entry. Would anyone please start an article on Noachides?
- See Noahide Law. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
I made a bunch of changes that I think make the article clearer and the discussion easier to follow. I didn't change much content, mainly I moved sentences around, added subheadings to divide up a long article, and moved all the bible verses to footnotes. (I found it very difficult with the verses in the text because there were so many of them.) The main content change was explicitly stating the two kinds of proselyte--the previous version seemed vague on the relation between the two. Tocharianne 23:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
"In the citation we can also see that Pilate's wife is a gate proselyte. Though drawn to the Jewish religion, she could never become a Jewess as long as she was married to a gentile uninterested in adhering to Judaism."