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- 1 Current status
- 2 Sentence tries to do too much
- 3 File:Map of Europe 1648.PNG Nominated for Deletion
- 4 Reformation
- 5 Someone please fix first section under "history"
- 6 Unitas Fratrum/Moravian Church
- 7 Abbreviations
- 8 Rewriting the lead section
- 9 Wikipedia:The Core Contest
- 10 Copyright problem removed
- 11 Church of England?
- 12 better source than Simon?
- 13 Actual beginning of "Protestant"
Sentence tries to do too much
- "The Roman Catholic Church responded with a Counter-Reformation put in to motion by the Council of Trent—the most important ecumenical council since Nicaea II 800 years earlier (at the time, there had not been an ecumenical council since Lateran IV over 300 years prior, a length only to be matched by the interval between Trent and Vatican I)—and spearheaded by the Society of Jesus."
- Although not the topic of this Article, this sentence tries to sum up 37 or more other Articles. Someone help with this!
- Is there anything wrong with just saying: "The Roman Catholic Church responded with a Counter-Reformation put in to motion by the Council of Trent" and ending there? If forced, I have no problem with adding: "and spearheaded by the Society of Jesus." Komowkwa (talk) 15:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
File:Map of Europe 1648.PNG Nominated for Deletion
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--Moved from personal page to talk page where it belongs-- The Reformation was also caused by the Renaissance. Because of the invention of the printing press, more people began to read the bible. The spirit of the Renaissance made people feel more curious and ready to ask questions. Many were no longer willing to accept all the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. Martin Luther criticized certain practices and teachings of the Church. He gained many followers who were, of course, the Protestants. The Protestant movement spread to other countries of northern and western Europe. Several different Protestant religions developed. And in the article, it says that the ""15th-century invention of the printing press, and the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, contributed to the creation of Protestantism"", as you see, the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire was caused by the takeover of Constantinople by the Ottomans (as the article states), who conquered the city, thus, caused that the migration of Greek scholars and texts to Italy following the Fall of Constantinople. Thus when the article that you reverted mentions ""15th-century invention of the printing press, and the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, contributed to the creation of Protestantism"", of course this had something to do with and had to go through the Renaissance since all of this was caused in the Renaissance era. And the spread of ideas was the cause for the Reformation. I see you are new to Wikipedia and please state your reason first why this change needs to be reverted. Thank you. (Slurpy121 (talk) 07:17, 24 February 2013 (UTC))
- you need documentation to back it up every statement made in the article. Your statement above is not documentation. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 16:52, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
- It is documented, and in fact it doesn't need to be, since the previous statement was in fact saying the same thing, indirectly. (Slurpy121 (talk) 20:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC))
- it is not documents nor is it found anywhere in the article. it is OR based on indirect speculation. Get some documentation and put it in the article. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 23:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
- It is in fact. Read about the Renaissance and how the printing press helped to spread Renaissance ideas throughout Europe and influence people such as Martin Luther to question the bible. It's pure reason and logic if you will. I don't know why you deny reason against such logic. (Slurpy121 (talk) 00:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC))
- Please stop removing my edit. If you are trying to pass yourself as a contributor just by deleting a content and saying it needs source if the source is as Chrystal clear in front of you, then you are not contributing in anything at all, but trying to make things worse for knowledge seekers! If it's hard for you to acknowledge the fact that the printing press and the fall of the eastern roman empire was the cause of the protestant reformation, then you my friend need to learn your history, that's why we have talk pages so we can discuss the history and the cause of the reformation. The 15th century invention of the printing press and the fall of the eastern roman empire contributed to the reformation, that's what it states in the article, right? And do you think these events led to the reformation directly? No? First it had to go through the renaissance and by the invention of the printing press, humanist ideas spread and the ability for many of the people to be able to read the bible, one individual being Martin Luther, a leader of the protestant movement, Is that so hard for you to understand?? You might also want to read this Wikipedia:Edit warring. (Slurpy121 (talk) 00:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RoyBurtonson (talk • contribs)
- Read a book sometime, or learn from online courses. I'ts even written in my old "History for Kids book". Everyone with a knowledge of history knows that and It's not always necessary to provide a source if the answer is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. How do you think the Reformation began? You must Stop deleting without consensus. (Slurpy121 (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2013 (UTC))
Actually, sir or ma'am, it was not caused by the Renaissance, but rather aided by it. It used many tools that the Renaissance used (scholarship, printing, the "return to the sources" approach, etc.). However, it was not caused by it. Its primary cause was the decadence of the Renaissance clergy, their ineptitude or neglect of their flocks, the doctrine of the Catholic Church that laid the foundations for the abuses, and first and foremost the relationship between man and God. Furthermore, proof for this could be found in the fact that it didn't end until ca. 1750, when the Age of Enlightenment took the upper hand.
Someone please fix first section under "history"
The section as it is right now ignores the fact that mainline protestants are a minority. Most protestants today are not mainline. The article previously had the word "mainstream" which is even worse, because that actually suggests that they are the majority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Sir or Ma'am:
Actually, the mainline "protestants" are the majority of the "Protestant" sects. It's just that attendence and membership is lower across the board.
Unitas Fratrum/Moravian Church
There is a problem both in the article on the Unitas Fratrum and the Moravian Church (as well as their mentions in the page on the Protestant Reformation). They both state that the movement started with Jan Hus. This is in error. The Moravian Church and the Unitas Fratrum both originated with Nikolaus Ludwig, Graf von Zinzendorf und Pottendorf in the 1700s. The church that followed Jan Hus (the Hussites) later split in many directions: the Ultraquists (or Calixtines), the Bohemian Brethren, the Unity of the Brethren, the Czechoslovak Hussite Church, and the Taborites. These need to be changed ASAP.Thank you, Dgljr5121973 (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Response: You seem not to understand the Moravian Church's History. The Unitas Fratrum, Unity of brethren, was founded in 1457 by moderate followers of Jan Hus. They received episcopal ordination in 1467. This Unitas was forced underground or into exile in 1620 by the Habsburg takeover of Bohemia and Moravia. John Amos Comenius was their last bishop. Descendants of the Unitas kept their evangelical faith alive in secret as "the Hidden Seed". In 1722 under the leadership of Carpenter Christian David, many of this "Hidden Seed" began to emigrate to the estate in Saxony of the young nobleman Nicolas Ludwig Count von Zinzendorf. There under his guidance and leadership the descendants of the Unitas were forged again into a congregation of Brothers and Sisters in Herrnhut, consciously adopting Comenius's Ratio Disciplinae as a model for their "Brotherly Agreement" in 1727. They were of course very heavily influenced and transformed by the Pietism of the 18th Century in Germany and the strong personality of Zinzendorf, but most of the first 2 generations of Herrnhut "Moravians" were in fact descendants of the Ancient Unitas Fratrum.. Under Zinzendorf's leadership they began the worldwide protestant missionary movement in 1732 and in 1735 received the episcopal ordination of the Ancient Unitas in 1735 from the 2 remaining bishops of the Unitas, Comenius's grandson Jablonski in Berlin and Sitkovius in Lissa. The Moravian Church still preserves this episcopal order from Comenius. Scattered across the world in 17 Unity Provinces, the so-called "Moravian" church, is just a nickname, it is in reality the Renewed Unitas Fratrum, and legitimately lays claim to the inheritance of the Ancient Unitas Fratrum. — Preceding unsigned188.8.131.52 (talk) 18:29, 21 November 2013 (UTC)Pastor R. comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 17:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
The important thing is to have reliable sources to use in the article. If you have sources, make changes and list the sources. Don't wait for someone else to do it for you. If you don't have sources then you should not make any changes. --RoyBurtonson (talk) 20:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Rewriting the lead section
When I first read the lead section, it came across as both muddled and in some ways misleading. For example, 1517 as the usual starting-date appeared twice (paras. 1 & 4); Wycliffe and Hus were listed among the initiators although they had died long before 1517 (they are usually classed as precursors of the Ref.); the Black Death's influence must have been remote and the impact of the Fall of Constantinople was probably more indirect in that it contributed to the later Renaissance than direct. I have tried to give what I consider to be a reasonable shape to the lead section and hope it stimulates work on the rest of the article which needs to balance the theological, the socio-religious and the political aspects of a very complex process and in several sections needs more adequate sources. (I will try and deal with the section on the Church of England.) Jpacobb (talk) 02:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to tackle this article for the newest running of the Core Contest, I hope. This will involve cleanup, adding citations to existing text, replacing out of date or unreliable citations (I'm looking at the citations to other wikipedia articles, specifically) and a general expansion. If all goes well, it should be close to GA status when I finish up. (In the past I've worked over Middle Ages and Crusades for earlier versions of this contest). Ealdgyth - Talk 15:46, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed
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Church of England?
I have two questions about the recent insertion into the lead section: "It [the CofE] considered itself Protestant until the rise of the Oxford Movement in the 1830s." First, as it stands it is seriously misleading in that it implies that the Church's understanding of it changed in the 1830's. The opinions of Newman, Keble and others were first expressed in that decade but remained a minority view until much later in the century and even today the CofE's official web-site includes being protestant as one of its defining characteristics. Secondly, I doubt whether this information (even in a corrected form) is of sufficient relevance to the topic of this particular article on the Protestant Reformation which ended in 1648 to merit inclusion in the lead—or even in the corresponding section. — Jpacobb (talk) 00:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
better source than Simon?
In February someone questioned Simon as a source. Simon's book doesn't match the description of unreliable sources, see WP:NOTRS. Also, Simon is cited on a Stanford web site, so that speaks in its favor. Can someone please remove the "better source needed" tag? Jonathan Tweet (talk) 03:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Actual beginning of "Protestant"
I am amazed that this and other articles about Protestant/Protestantism totally neglect the actual origin of the term Protestant and thus its actual meaning. Please, someone work in the information that the term comes from the Protestation at Speyers in 1529, after which those princes and cities who had protested the Diet's decision, and thus those they represented in religious terms, were called "Protestants". This definition -- the proper historical one -- excludes Zwinglians and Anabaptists.
This information is actually present in some small articles, but belongs in the larger ones so it's plain where the term "Protestant" came from and thus its historical meaning. Dismalscholar (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)