Talk:Protestant Reich Church

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Significance[edit]

This is a rather tiny article. Were they just not very significant? Because there's like volumes on Catholic Nazis at Wiki.--T. Anthony 08:38, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Rosenberg and the Reich Church[edit]

There is some confusion here. The article implies that Rosenberg's 30 points were the program of the Reich Church, which is not correct. Although there was a faction within the German Christians organization that wanted to ban the Old Testament from Church teaching, this is hardly true of the Reich Church in general. The ideas of Nazi thinkers like Rosenberg and Jakob Wilhelm Hauer were directly opposed to Christianity, but they were not really encouraged by the Nazi leadership. Hitler knew he needed the support of the Protestant Church to gain power, so any attempt to officially abandon the Old Testament would not have been in his interest. Anyway, Rosenberg's and Hauer's attempts to create a new völkische religion had nothing to do with the Reich Church, which was just the official body of German Protestants in the Third Reich designed by the totalitarian state. Also, the Thule Society was not an occult order, as countless conspiracy buffs claim, but a far-right political organization. 87.169.52.227 00:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Rosenberg's fantasies were not a programme for the Protestant Riech Church, which is what this article is about. I'm not even clear about the provenance of this 30 point plan, which seems extreme, even for Rosenberg. Paul B 18:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
As far as I know, the 30 point plan was just an idea from Rosenberg's diary, one of his megalomaniac fantasies. --84.174.197.77 20:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok then, just to be safe, I'm removing this statement here:
The merger was based on Nazi ideas of creating a "positive Christianity", namely purifying Christianity of any Jewish elements, including even the Old Testament.[citation needed] The idea had existed within a small minority of Christian groups since the time of Marcion of Sinope, but the Protestant Reich Church embraced it for racial rather than theological reasons.[citation needed]
Ltwin (talk) 20:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

NAZI View of Aryan Jesus[edit]

This article should include discussion of the Nazi concept of Jesus which they developed from 1933 onward, with links to the below, because it is such a unique view of Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Other_views http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race rumjal 10:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it certainly shouldn't be discussed here. Racist-esoteric views about Jesus were not an official teaching of the Reich Church. Also, the Reich Church did not abandon the Old Testament, although some extremists in the German Christians encouraged the idea. --84.174.197.77 20:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

POV[edit]

"but the Protestant Reich Church did so for racial more than theological reasons."

This needs to be supported by some kind of source. It sound like a POV to me.

Darwinzape 20:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

If you ask me, it's quite useless to debate on wether they banned Jews for racist or theological reasons. Pro-Nazi theology contained a strong element of racism, the two were intermixed. --84.174.197.77 20:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Significant Changes to Be Made[edit]

The more I read about the subject, the more this article seems screwed up to me. The official protestant church in the Third Reich wasn't called Protestant Reich Church but German Evangelical Church (Deutsche Evangelische Kirche). Apart from that, the German Christians tried to set up what they called a German Reich Church (not Protestant Reich Church!) in 1933, which, had the extremist wing of the German Christians succeeded, would have eventually abandoned the Old Testament. --84.174.206.50 15:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Article reorganization[edit]

I have removed alot of material as the article had more information about the Confessing Church than it did about the subject of the article. If I removed something important it was by mistake and was not intentional, and I will be copy editing it over the next couple of days to smooth over the rough places. Much of the removed material might go well with the Confessing Church article. Ltwin (talk) 10:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Intact" and "destroyed" churches[edit]

What does this mean? These terms are mentioned in the article, but a definition is never given. I assume it denotes whether the church experienced schism? Ltwin (talk) 21:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

German Evangelical Church[edit]

Shouldn't this article be renamed "German Evangelical Church"? German Reich Church is neither the English translation of the German name nor is it a widespread term in the English language. --77.181.234.106 (talk) 14:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I have been asking myself the same question. It seems that this would make since, but I don't know enough about the subject. I will go to WikiProject Germany and see if we can get more input on this. Ltwin (talk) 21:13, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
The article may need to be renamed, but it should not be to the German Evangelical Church. This is the name covering a variety of historical congregations in English speaking lands (North America, South America, Australia) in the 17th-20th centuries. It might perhaps be better to make a single article, or two articles, on the Confessing Church and the State Protestant Church. I would prefer to see one article called German Protestant Churches under National Socialism, perhaps. Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
I've added to this, and created a bibliography. It still needs work, such as explaining how organization and so many of the churches and pastors were coopted into the Nazi effort. I've standardized the citations, but not used the templates for references, and I protected it from AWBot interference for the time being. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

I think this article properly belongs in the history section of Evangelical Church in Germany. What do you think?--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm okay with merging it into the History section of the other article, but there may be others who are not. It brings into contention the actions of the Protestants who did not accommodate National Socialism, which may open a can of worms. I think you should post on the Wikiproject Germany page and the Protestantism project to develop a wider perspective on this. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Before any merger can be thought of this article has to be improved a lot. I made some changes today, especially the last paragraph was written as if the later EKD churches were the only Protestant churches in German, totally ignoring Methodists, Baptists, New Apostolic Church, etc). --Mk4711 (talk) 20:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree that both articles need considerable improvement. I'm curious why the article should be improved before a merger could take place. Could it not be part of the overall improvement process? Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:51, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
The EKD article could be better, okay, but it isn't that bad. But here there are some important inconsistencies, if not mistakes. I'm getting rather opposed to a merger actually. First the article could get too long. I consider this article on the German Evangelical Church, DEK, to be just the beginning. On the other hand it is dubious until when the DEK really existed. Has it ever officially ceased to exist or did it just fell in oblivion? The nazis pretty soon lost interest in this organisation. The Reich Bishop got more or less ignored as early as 1935. As the minister for church affairs died in 1941 he was even not replaced. Before his death he had gotten ignored by the Führer as well. On the other hand there was strong opposition to this organisation in the member churches, for lots of reasons. Finally the EKD sees itself rather in the continuation of the Confessing Church. Don't forget, the only reason for establishing the DEK was to get Protestant churches under control of the regime. Merging the two articles is a little bit like the merger of the articles on the Pétain Regime and post-war France. --Mk4711 (talk) 23:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd rather suggest the merger of the articles on the Protestant Reich Church and Confessing Church into something like "History of Protestant churches in Germany". --Mk4711 (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for all the thoughts. Since for now there does not seem to be any consensus, I will: 1. Wait for more comments on both pages. 2. In the meantime, change German Evangelical Church so it redirects to the EKD article instead of this one. 3. Post on the Wikiproject Germany page as suggested. As for the question of continuity, when the Americans, etc. came in, they fired a a lot of church officials that they deemed as cooperating with the Nazis, but kept certain other ones. I am not aware of them ending any still-existent institutions. There was a personnel changeover, but I don't see it as being any more significant than the turnover instigated by the Nazis a decade earlier.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Well, the minister on church affairs died in 1941 and Ludwig Müller (Reich Bishop) in 1945, probably by suicide. Apparently the DEK was more or less a failed experiment by the nazis. There were many anti-Semites in the Confessing Church as well. For some people, like the later EKD chairman Otto Dibelius it was more about power than about ideology. --Mk4711 (talk) 23:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
There were also some in the DEK who protected Jews, and then were outed at the end of the war by the Americans for allegedly being pro-Natzi, such as most of the theological faculty at Erlangen.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 06:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The merger shouldn't be being discussed in two places at once. The discussion should be held either only here or only at Talk:Evangelical Church in Germany#Merge. +Angr 08:39, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Angr, thanks for the correction. I just removed the merge tags because it seems to me that the consensus is against the merger. Thank you to all who commented above.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)