Talk:Puma (IFV)

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Compliacted calibers?[edit]

Why doesn't the Puma use the widespread 27mm Mauser ammunition, which is found in the Tornado? Why do the germans introduce a third 30mm ammunition, besides the 27mm and the 35mm used for the twin flak anti-aircraft tank? (talk) 08:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

>> Wouldn´t make sense. As air-optimized cartridges the 27mm and 35mm offer a different performance spectrum than what is needed for ground combat. They are high-velocity FAPDS ammunition to maximize performance against a variety of targets. The 27mm is Luftwaffe exclusive anyway, they have their own logistics.

The 30 x 173 mm caliber used on the Puma however is highly flexible, the ammunition variety is abundant and it is also a de facto NATO standard by now. The grenades are also 50% lighter and smaller than the 35 mm. And lastly, the Rh MK 30-2/ABM is roughly two thirds lighter than the Oerlikon 35mm. Vandervahn (talk) 09:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ammunition type is incorrect[edit]

The front armour is able to withstand 30mm AP projectiles. The end of phrase is incorrect because, firstly there is no 30mm AP in inventory, and secondly at combat weight 32 - 43t nothing to do with 30mm AP projectiles . The exact ammo type should be APFSDS.-- The exact ammo type should be APFSDS.


The Israeli Namer (vehicle) has definitly a more powerful engine, counting 895 KW. The power/weight ratio also is really not that different. Please rephrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget the Namer is based on the Merkava chassis and share the same diesel engine from the Merkava Mark 3. De Grasse (talk) 02:12, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


This article reads like a project advertisement and I believe fails Wikipedia's integrity standards for promotional writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The statement, "The smaller 30 x 173 mm caliber (for example in comparison to the Bofors 40 mm gun mounted on the CV9040) offers major advantages because of a much lower ammunition size and weight, and the large number of rounds ready to fire, e.g. the CV9040 offers only 24 shots per magazine.", is slightly non-sensical and comes across as pure marketing speak. Obviously smaller ammo is, well, smaller, but it's not necessarily "better" as smaller ammo also tends to have less range, less penetration, and causes less damage. It's a tradeoff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmw2cc (talkcontribs) 22:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It is a necessary information. On Puma there were strict requirements for weight and the amount of ammunition carried. They even went for a smaller 5.56 mm NATO MG instead of the typical 7.62 mm NATO MG. On Marder 2 the requirements were 300 rounds carried and an effective combat range of 2,000 m. This lead to the adoption of the 35 x 228 mm caliber. The requirements for the Puma were even stricter. The weight had to be less (less than 35 tonnes instead of 45 tonnes), more ammunition had to be carried and the effective range also should be about 2,000 - 3,000 m. This lead to the adoption of a rather "small" unmanned turret with high-performance KE-TF and APFSDS ammunition, while other countries still use APDS rounds. Especially the part "CV9040 offers only 24 shots per magazine" is crucial. If the Puma would have only 24 rounds ready to fire, then after 24 shots the Puma would need to leave the battlefield, so that the crew could leave the vehicle and reload the turret magazine. The 40 mm gun of the CV90 is also not belt-fed, which means that it is impossible to use it in an unmanned turret while staying in the same configuration as the Puma.
A 40 mm cannon is also not necessarily "better", it can be in some scenarios, but in a lot it will be inferior.
The mentioned sentence btw. is more or less a translated copy from a German webportal and not from some marketing brochure. --EndlessUnknown (talk) 10:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree somewhat with user Pmw2cc. Describing such things as purely advantageous is not really NPOV. It may very well be true that the combination of 35mm cannon and 5.56 machine gun is superior to all others for such a vehicle, but such a statement needs to somehow be backed up by comparison, testing, and so forth, ideally by third-party analysts.
Perhaps a compromise statement to the effect that "designers/procurers of the vehicle feel that the combination of smaller caliber main cannon and machine gun carries performance and packaging advantages compared to a larger-caliber main cannon" might be used, or something like it, which still explains their position while not coming across as so definitive. The strict issued requirements you mention that led the the adoption of these weapons might also be mentioned in the article, sourced ideally, which will further explain why the systems chosen are advantageous in this application. Russ3Z (talk) 20:17, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Rewrote the part, incorporating some of the info given by EndlessUnknown. /BP (talk) 11:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

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Crew use of MG4's ammo?[edit]

While this is a smaller weapon than the western standard secondary armament (7.62 mm caliber MG), it offers the advantage that the crew can use the ammunition in their individual firearms.

Isn't the MG4 fed from a linked belt? If so, I don't see how the crew can use them in their magazine-fed weapons, unless this is somehow referring to a member or members of the squad (I don't know its makeup) who are carrying MG4s themselves. In either case, it should be reworded, since most of the crew would still be unable to use the ammo. Russ3Z (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

It's not exactly hard to break down link. The actual ammunition is exactly the same; you just have to snap the rounds out of the links then load them into a magazine.--DaleCurrie (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2015 (UTC)