Talk:RAS syndrome

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RFC on including DC Comics[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There's no consensus here. Compassionate727 (T·C) 23:50, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Should we include DC Comics (Detective Comics Comics) in the list of examples? JDDJS (talk) 23:01, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Support inclusion. This is a good example, it is cited, and has been on the list (intermittently) for quite some time. The list is quite short, now only standing at four entries, as two other redundant examples were recently removed. If anything, it could use another one or two. - wolf 23:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
    How about TSB Bank? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
    @Redrose64: Sure, that could be another entry. However, do you support or oppose in this RfC? Thanks - wolf 13:41, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
  • What the hey. Yes --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:28, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
  • It needs a citation to a reliable source that says it's a example. If I recall correctly, the company has said "DC" no longer stands for anything. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:30, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
    There is an attached source that states "Detective Comics", numerous times. Are you challenging the source? Or are you claiming the source must state that DC is an example of RAS? Do you have a source to support your recollection? Lastly, even if DC (the parent company) is now is just "DC", it did stand for "Detective Comics" at one time for years, and by all accounts, it's comics still do. It is still an example. Can't pretend it never existed... - wolf 13:59, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose this is article is about RAS itself, and not a list article for every example of it. We just need to list a couple of examples, just so people can get the idea of what it means. I can see no reason that we need to add any more examples to over emphasize the point. Additionally, since DC has long since changed its name to just be DC and not stand for anything, it is highly debatable if RAS even applies here in the first place. I just do not see how including it helps improve the article in any way. JDDJS (talk) 15:00, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
    Didn't you at one point add the suppressed note that said "the list should not be more than 5 examples"...? I removed two duplicates awhile ago, and now, with DC included, there are only four (4) examples. (That's not really considered exhaustive.) You're ok with five, but four is too many? And that fact is, even if the parent company, "DC Enterainment" is just "DC", is still does stand for "Detective Comics" on some of their publications, as per the attached source. And as such, "Detective Comics Comics" is still an good example of RAS syndrome, especially compared to the others, which are all theee-letter initialisms. - wolf 15:18, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
    It's not about a magic number that is just the right amount. It's about when your point is made. And I feel the point is already made with the other examples. The idea of including DC has been floated around in the past, but it never has gained a significant amount of traction. If you can find any actual reliable sources that point out the redundancy of using the phrase DC comics (doesn't have to refer to RAS by name, just the concept), then I would completely change my stance. But without any sources referring to the redundancy, it's just a piece of unnecessary original research. JDDJS (talk)
    Well, when you put "detective comics comics redundant" into Google, you get loads of results. Most of them are on message boards, which aren't RS of course, but it certainly demonstrates how sooo many people see "DC Comics" as a redundant term. Perhaps that's why is was suggested so much on the talk page here. I'm still not sure why you are so vehemently against including it, but I'm also not sure how the other three examples were selected either. Anyway, I did grab some cites; (some likely more RS than others) [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. But regardless, I think it is well established that "DC Comics" is a widely recognized redundant term. Also, as I pointed out above, I think it's of more value to include (in place of one of the other three examples, if there is going to be a hard cap of three entries for this list) because the other three are all three letter initialisms, whereas "DC Comics" is not. We should show that RAS Syndrome is not specific to three letter initialisms, but that it can come in other forms. - wolf 21:02, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose (Summoned by bot) per JDDJS, the value of a list of (debatable?) examples is itself debatable. When DC or TSB becomes the proper noun for a company (albeit a name originally formed from a pre-existing acronym), it is debatable whether these are RASs or simply proper use, ie name of company followed by their function or product. No one would find the use of the final word reduntant in "Acme Books publications", which is analagous usage. The value of the page seems to exist in informing that the phenomenon exists and a small number of clear (undisputed) examples given for clarification. Pincrete (talk) 10:39, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
    If you're looking for a "small list"... we have one. At one time, 5 examples was deemed acceptable, now we only have 4. They're all sourced and the "dispute" was from a single editor. The rest of your argument doesnt seem to make sense... DC Comics is just that, no one is claiming 'Comics' is being used in place of another analogous word (eg: it's not "DC Publications"). Whether it's the name of company or a virus, it's still an example of RAS. The list is small and in no way takes away from the article. Of the 4 examples on the list, DC has arguably been proposed the most on the talk page, perhaps becasue it's been around the longest of all the examples and is so widely recognized. And, another factor that gives it value above the other examples is that it's not just another 3-letter initialism. It's the lone example that demonstrates that RAS comes in other forms. (It would be great if we could add a 4-letter example, like HSBC Bank, but that's a different discussion). Thanks - wolf 16:13, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on including LCD[edit]

Should we include LCD (Liquid-crystal display display) in the list of examples? - wolf 14:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

LCD display has its own independent reference pointing out the relevancy of the name, so it needs to be on the list. JDDJS (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC on including UPC[edit]

Should we include UPC (Universal Product Code code) in the list of examples? - wolf 14:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC on including HIV[edit]

Should we include HIV (Human immunodeficiency virus virus) in the list of examples? - wolf 14:29, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

RfC comments[edit]

Looking through the talk archives, I didn't see any specific consensus for any of the current entries in the "list of examples". A couple of them, such as PIN and DC Comics are mentioned and/or suggested multiple times however. We should establish a clear consensus for all the entries, so that we something to refer to going forward, should there be any issues with the list in the future. (imho) - wolf 14:34, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

You really shouldn't need to hold RFCs to establish consensus. A plain old discussion on the talk page ought to be enough – assuming that you can't achieve the normal Wikipedia:Consensus#Through editing, which I would have thought was good enough for all of these examples. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
You would think so. As did I. But here we are anyway. There is quite a history behind behind this little 4 word list, (not quite a "pile", but anyway), and apparently this way was needed to get a consensus established. - wolf 08:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I started the RFC on DC comics because there was a clear disagreement between wolf and me about whether including DC, and no other editors were getting involved to break the deadlock, so it was the only way to end the edit war. The other entries on the list have been there unchallenged for a while now, so I see no reason to debate those inclusions. JDDJS (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, DC had been proposed multiple times (as I mentioned) and was on the list for quite some time until you rather arbitrarily removed it. But, regardless, we have an RfC for DC, and the other 3 entries now, so we'll just go with them. - wolf 15:06, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

List limit[edit]

Perhaps while we're at it, we should decide if the list is going to have a set number of entries with no exceptions, barring a consensus, (a hard cap), or if additional entries will be permitted under certain circumstances, such as an attached ref that specifically mentions redundancy (a soft cap). Thoughts? - wolf 18:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

  • I was called here by the bot. It seems that it's difficult for writers here to keep on the topic of the "syndrome", rather than focusing on the much more interesting redundant acronym phrases themselves. This is likely because there is no such syndrome ("set of medical signs and symptoms") (well except this); it's just a catchphrase made up by Stanley Newman,([6]) useful because it demonstrated itself, and sounded cute, to describe a common language usage error. If the article was renamed "Redundant acronym phrases", with a subsection and redirect about the so-called "RAS syndrome", it would be easier to justify a longer list of commonly spoken examples. There could even be a list article with lots of them. Otherwise, any four or five examples will do; exactly which ones isn't critical to understanding the concept, or worth spending much time arguing about. Here's an opinion with a reference:[7].—Anne Delong (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
  • For starters, let's limit it to entries that are verifiable. None of them have sources that call them redundant acronyms symptomatic of RAS. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 10:33, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
    Why would they though? - wolf 19:31, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

PDF format[edit]

The example PDF format should be added. It seems to be quite common, also in official and legal publications. -- (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2018 (UTC)