|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the RAS syndrome article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
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|This page was previously nominated for deletion. Please review the discussions if considering re-nomination:
- 1 Can we add CAC?
- 2 Further examples perhaps qualifying for inclusion
- 3 "These 3 items"
- 4 Two more examples
- 5 PIN number
- 6 PNS syndrome
- 7 Acronyms become used as words
- 8 FMS Surname
- 9 If there is ever a list of self-demonstrating articles, this should be on it
- 10 BRD examples
- 11 Is this a good example?
- 12 OPEC countries
- 13 Recently removed
- 14 Recursive RAS Syndrom
- 15 How about adding PAT Testing?
- 16 Can we add DC?
- 17 Smile
- 18 the title phrase itself
Can we add CAC?
I can't count the number of times I've heard someone talk about their "cac card".
Further examples perhaps qualifying for inclusion
- SALT Talks
- START Treaty (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty Treaty)
- CD Disc. DVD disk is even more used.
- RPG Game —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 16:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
- CSBC Corporation, Taiwan - where CSBC stands for China Shipbuilding Corporation, hence, "China Shipbuilding Corporation Corporation, Taiwan". The official name of the company is "CSBC Corporation, Taiwan" since 2007, where it was previously known as just CSBC. -- | —Talk contribs email 04:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- UPC code. swain (talk) 00:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- MIDI interface. --126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:12, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- FLOPS per second (floating-point operations per second per second)
- DC Comics (Detective Comics Comics) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
- Seconded!! One of my pet peeves in newspapers. So if there should be added one more, it's this, because medicine/science has not yet been covered in the list at all. Plus, 3 is really a bit too few. BTW, it's even mentioned in Paul's list: http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/hiv.html -andy 184.108.40.206 (talk) 15:54, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- Windows 2000's boot screen saying it was "Built on NT technology." And two that are widespread in the medical imaging field: "MPR reconstruction" and "PACS system." --UrsoBR (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- PCR reaction (polymerase chain reaction reaction) added to the page by User:J. Walter Weatherman; moved here by Cnilep (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- RIP in peace — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alxbnt (talk • contribs) 23:35, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
"These 3 items"
I have just rolled back two added examples, noting "Consensus is to keep the list at these 3 items." I copied that edit summary from the hidden comment on the page. To my slight embarrassment, though, I see that there are currently only two examples listed, following Afjweb's edit to remove CSS. There is an older comment above pointing out that CSS is a problematic example, since it is also called "less applicable" further down the page.
Can we work toward some consensus on a new item to add to the examples? I think that three is a nice number: large enough to illustrate the pattern, but short enough not to invite attempts to be exhaustive.
Examples suggested in the past include:
- PCB board (printed circut board board)
- UPC code (universal product code code)
- LCD display (liquid crystal display display)
- RCP plan (reflected ceiling plan plan)
- ISP provider (internet service provider provider)
- GUI interface (graphical user interface interface)
See also the numerous examples suggested in other sections of this talk page.
My vote is for "UPC code", since I feel it is the most commonly used. (I have no empirical evidence for that feeling, though.) LCD display is perhaps equally frequent and equally well-known; the others seem either slightly obscure (RCP, GUI) or unlikely to to use the expanded form (PCB board, ISP provider). Cnilep (talk) 04:30, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
- I stand corrected: the Corpus of Contemporary American English lists 5 examples of "UPC code" and 65 of "LCD display" in its 425 million word corpus. I'll add that example for the time being. Comment here if you disagree. Cnilep (talk) 04:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Two more examples
[I understand it's useful to keep the article's example list trimmed, but it seems to me this talk page is a fine place to collect additional examples.]
Now that LEDs are being used in more and more lighting applications, we're starting to hear people refer to "LED lights".
My favorite: The La Brea tar pits, which if you translate the original Spanish name expands to "The The Tar Tar Pits". (But I guess this isn't really an acronym issue.) —Steve Summit (talk) 14:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
- Not true, for several reasons:
- The basic meaning of "redundant" is that something is repeated. It doesn't necessarily indicate that the repetition serves no purpose. Sometimes redundancy does serve a purpose, e.g. error detection and correction and other failsafe systems.
- You've already distinguished it from a pin, by writing "PIN" instead of "pin".
- Even in speech, where you don't have this way of distinguishing them, the phrase "pin number" could equally be a number by which a pin is identified. I imagine that this is common in discussions of audio-visual and computer peripheral connectors.
- 99% of the time, whether a PIN or a pin is being talked about is obvious from the context.
- Even if we did need a way to distinguish the two in speech, what's wrong with "PINumber" or "pea eye en"?
- — Smjg (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Plus: An acronym/initialism can stand for more than one thing. So people could potentially say "ATM machine" or "ATM Manager" to distinguish them, though it is still silly. — Smjg (talk) 19:38, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
- actually, "repetitive" means that something is repeated. "redundant" does in fact mean that the redundancy serves no purpose. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 19:38, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
In July 2013 User:TenPoundHammer removed several bits of unsourced or badly sourced information. I have, however, recently restored one part of that information.
The old version of the page asserted, "The similar term PNS syndrome (which expands to "PIN number syndrome syndrome", and further to "personal identification number number syndrome syndrome") was coined by Usenet users before the coining of RAS Syndrome", and quoted a Google archive of alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe. As TenPoundHammer noted, a Usenet group is not a reliable source, since it is user-generated. It is a particularly unfit source for this bit of information, since it is a primary source.
Nonetheless, the primary source does reveal that the word "PNS syndrome" was used on Usenet. I have therefore changed the article to read, "The similar term PNS syndrome (which expands to "personal identification number number syndrome syndrome") was used by Usenet users." I have also tagged the assertion as requiring a non-primary source. Note that this assertion makes no unverified claim about the word's origin. Cnilep (talk) 00:48, 23 October 2013 (UTC) @Cnilep:I doubt a secondary source would ever come up verifying that something was the case on Usenet. I can think of a billion Usenet-isms that would never have a secondary source verifying their existence. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Acronyms become used as words
I think it might be worth noting in the section describing reasonable usage that often acronyms end up being used as if they were words themselves. For example, RSVP (the French for something like "respond please" has become an English verb meaning "to respond to an invitation; to comfirm whether or not one will attend an event" or similar. It is often used with suffexes: "Nancy RSVPed via email"; "When did RSVPing fall out of fashion?" When taking as a word rather than an acronym, it makes sense for the apparent redundancy. HIV is a type of virus, as is flu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:50, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
If there is ever a list of self-demonstrating articles, this should be on it
@Thewolfchild:, can we discuss? We should find citations for all of them, otherwise it's WP:OR. (PDF doesn't have one, but I'll remove that once WP:3RR expires.) Origamiteⓣⓒ 14:34, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- The one I added has a cite. If the list is capped at 5, and you're going to remove "PDF" (and presumably replace it with "HIV"), then problem solved. - theWOLFchild 20:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- "PDF format" not only doesn't have a valid cite backing it as RAS up and is, as it currently stands, OR, but also it seems invalid to me; the cite actually shows that the usage is hardly redundant, because 'pdf' doesn't necessarily have to be an acronym (although it's derived from one). There's a slight but important difference between the very *acronym*, and the *file extension* of a file storing a data in some format. The very same way "FILE.COM" is a "file named 'FILE' with 'COM' extension" and is assumed to be "in COM format" (note that, while the "COM" here is derived from the word "command", it doesn't expand to it and is not an acronym for "command"), the very same way a "file.pdf" is a "file named 'file' with 'pdf' extension" and is assumed to be "in pdf format". IMO it's not a RAS, because 'pdf' here is only *derived* from an acronym, not one itself. File format extensions shouldn't be considered RAS as a rule of thumb; if we treated the extensions as acronyms, they would make no sense (see GIF, TIFF, IFF, AIFF etc.)
Is this a good example?
- Yes, but we'd need a source referring to it as a RAS. You could list examples forever, so we try to keep it to 5. Origamiteⓣⓒ 21:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't think 'OPEC countries' qualifies as "technically redundant". OPEC stands for Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, and therefore it's an 'organization' when OPEC itself is used. OPEC countries therefore, in my opinion, correctly refers to 'the countries' (i.e. member states) of this organization as opposed to referring to the organization itself. Just my 2 cents. To further clarify my viewpoint, I'd say an 'OPEC organization' expression would qualify as "technically redundant" instead. Babach (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agree—"OPEC countries" is not redundant in the same way that "PIN number" is. It's a superficial mistake to jump to the idea that it is. For that matter, if you say that "various US states have laws about topic X," the phrase "US states" is also not in the same class as "PIN number". This seems obvious to me, but if anyone needs analysis to explain how it is true, speak up, it could be worked up if people need it. I abridged the quote in the article by ellipsing past "OPEC". It is still a good and valid quote even with the ellipsis. — ¾-10 01:38, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Prinsgezinde removed some content with two edits, which I later reverted. Prinsgezinde suggested that the intentional redundancy is "understood" and "doesn't need citations". I'm a bit of fanatic for citations, so I disagree.
Prinsgezinde also noted that Redundant Acronym Phrases is a less reliable source. I agree; it is a primary source using the name. But I also note that other (not necessarily reliable, but independent) sources also use the label "RAP" (example 1, 2). Cnilep (talk) 04:24, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well I'm not going to challenge you since I have only limited interest in this article, but it seemed to me that most people would be able to spot the irony in the name. Either way, those sources are self-published and can not be used to verify the use of a name. I think the current name, RAS syndrome, is enough. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 08:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Recursive RAS Syndrom
I understand that you wish to keep only 5 examples. However, I would like to discuss the opportunity to add a new one, which can be considered as a redundant redundant acronym syndrome syndrome (Redundant RAS Syndrom) : The TOGAF Framework (The/The Open Group Architecture Framework/Framework). I don't find it relevant to create a new article for Redundant RAS Syndrom but adding this example would do the job.
How about adding PAT Testing?
Can we add DC?
- DC is not an acronym. While the name was inspired by the detective comics, the official name is DC Comics, which is part of DC Entertainment. So it's not an acronym. JDDJS (talk) 02:43, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
- According to our article, the company's name came from their branding of "Superman-DC." So yes, the name means "Detective Comics… Comics." However, I wouldn't consider that redundant—Detective Comics was one of their titles, one of many comics. So it's properly "Detective Comics Comics" (note the italicization), with the Batman title modifying the industry label. —22.214.171.124 (talk) 20:40, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
The page says
- Similarly, in 'Wipe that smile off your face' the last two words are tautological—there is no other place a smile could be—but the sentence would not stand without them."
And perhaps Bryson says that, but he's wrong. You could be directed to wipe the smile off of somebody else's face, or could be directed to wipe an image of a smile off of a chalkboard.
- Or you could simply say, "Wipe off that smile." The sentence stands fine. I'm removing that unnecessary bit of the quote. —126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:31, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
the title phrase itself
The first sentence was
- RAS syndrome (short for "redundant acronym syndrome syndrome"
<!-- sic -->) refers to the use of one or more of the words that make up an acronym in conjunction with the abbreviated form, thus in effect repeating one or more words.
I have changed the parenthesized part to
- (where "RAS" stands for "redundant acronym syndrome" and "syndrome" jokingly makes the phrase self-referential)
RAS syndrome is not, itself, a "syndrome syndrome", whatever that might mean. The syndrome here is the pattern of these terms, or the behavior of persons creating them, namely (the use of) redundant acronyms; thus redundant acronym syndrome. Anyone who uses the expression and knows what it stands for must be aware of its redundancy, and therefore aware that it is self-referring and not literally accurate, and that the self-reference makes sense only as a joke.