Talk:Race (human categorization)

Contradiction (paragraph on France) and lack of references

The article currently says "approximately five percent of the French population is non-European". This is arguably a false statement as by definition French citizens are European. You may rephrase it for example by saying that the contemporary French population has various origins, some of which come from its former colonies.

Another point of contention is that the five percent figure is not justified by a reference. There are no ethnicity information in national French census, so I don't know how the author came up with that number. If it comes from a statistical survey, the reference should be mentioned.

Lastly I suggest that the sentence "Since the end of the Second World War, France has become an ethnically diverse country." could be revised as follows: "Ethnic diversity in metropolitan France has increased after the second world war and the rapid dismantling of its colonial empire." The current version seems to imply that it wasn't ethnically diverse before the war. The colonial empire brought ethnic diversity early on. A famous example of a metis in nineteenth century Paris is Alexandre Dumas. And though possibly rare it was by no means an isolated phenomenon.

But more than anything, I believe that the article wouldn't suffer if we would remove that paragraph on France entirely. Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C50E:89BE:C800:2164:5432:F048:946 (talk) 13:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing European as defined by location and as defined by ancestry. And I think you need better sources for "diverse" than one person. 99.999999999...% ethnic European isn't "diverse". John Burgundy (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Let me insist on the lack of references in the paragraph on France. I suggest that all the text up to "French policy agenda." be removed: it presents figures that are not backed up by references. 2A01:C50E:89BE:C800:C9E2:37C3:7477:70DB (talk) 06:32, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Nah, just source it. This is basic stats stuff. Our existing articles on these places already provide the sources to use for doing so.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:26, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Lede tone is un-encyclopedic

Currently the lede section does not talk about what race is but instead sets up unflattering targets to knock down to persuade the reader not to think certain things about race.

This is an inappropriate tone for an encyclopedic article, it reads like the forward to an undergraduate 'intro to social philosophy' chapter.

The article seems to be written mostly from within the sphere of a particular brand of social anthropology. It uses snarl words to describe other approaches. Even if population genetics does not primarily deal with the language and concepts used to discuss race in a social context, it nonetheless deserves great weight and prominence since its findings are the primary evidence by which any past or current theories implicating race can be evaluated.

The lede section needs to neutrally explain the modern concept of race in the relevant disciplines and as a heuristic in medicine, government censuses. The historical theories can be laid out later. We would not begin an article on disease by laying out an ancient theory of evil spirits. If nobody works to reform the lede, after an appropriate period I will begin rewriting it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beepborpwhoorpp (talk • — Beepborpwhoorpp (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. contribs) 17:37, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah the article is maintained by American sociologists not biologists. Han Jo Jo (talk) 11:23, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Infrasubspecific divisions have taxonomic significance

I'm burying this dead horse before it draws any more flies. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:16, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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WP:POINTY and not the place to opine on statements in article EvergreenFir (talk) 04:46, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
"argue that, among humans, race has no taxonomic significance by pointing out that all living humans belong to the same species, Homo sapiens, and (as far as applicable) subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens." But it's policy here to copy paste self-evidently false material from "reliable sources". Han Jo Jo (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC) Do infrasubspecific divisions have taxonomic significance? Yes Han Jo Jo (talk) 20:02, 8 July 2018 (UTC) WP:NOT#FORUM. Wikipedia polls do not determine reality. As for RS: infrasubspecific taxa are used in botany, but not in zoology; see MOS:ORGANISMS for bullet-point summary of how this stuff works across various fields. If zoology were to adopt the idea, it would probably start with livestock breeds, but the real world has not done anything like this; such fine distinctions are entirely outside zoological nomenclature.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC) The poiint is moot since there is a general consensus among paleoanthropologists and population geneticists that racial groupings are not a taxonomically significant subdivisions of Homo sapiens.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 03:07, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

"The ICZN deals with nomenclature, not taxonomy. So it is not up to the Commission to declare whether something has taxonomic significance or not." ICZN, personal communication.

Why are the sociologists here cherry picking extreme minority views from 2004 to represent the ICZN when the ICZN themselves disagree? Han Jo Jo (talk) 07:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Me: "So it would be fair to say the referenced statement is incorrect? That the ICZN don't record a taxon is irrelevant to whether it has taxonomic significance?"

ICZN: "Yes" Han Jo Jo (talk) 08:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Can you show us where that has been published? See WP:VERIFY's nutshell:" Readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources." Doug Weller talk 08:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Personal communication. Contact them and check. Clearly your sources are not reliable at all. Han Jo Jo (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Repeat: Personal communication isn't a reliable source. No matter who it comes from.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

This is pointless hairplitting. Professional consensus among anthropologists and geneticists is against the notion. More to the point of this new wave of blather: ICZN sets nomenclature; there is no nomenclatural level (no taxonomic rank) to which human "races" are assigned in modern science, by any body that deals with taxonomy, i.e., with assigning particular subspecific or infrasubspecific names – taxa – at ICZN taxonomic (nomenclatural) ranks. That is, Han Jo Jo is barking up the wrong tree, in the wrong forest. PS: As I think I mentioned earlier, this is exactly the same "un-taxonomy" situation as with breeds and landraces of domesticated livestock. (However, they're otherwise not very comparable – no one is selectively breeding humans to fix particular traits; humans mate with whoever they feel like and can get away with mating, and we move around, a lot).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:13, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Please stop making the argument that because there's a "consensus among professionals" that "race does not exist" (which is completely dubious incidentally) that any race denial statement is justified. Whether there is a consensus or not, the argument that because the ICZN do not record an infrasubspecific division that it's therefore of "no taxonomic significance" is without question false. You're just making a non-sequitur assertion, repeating what I already said, that the ICZN deals with nomenclature not taxonomy, then randomly accusing me of "barking up the wrong tree". The statement is simply wrong. If you don't have the integrity to admit that because of your "race does not exist" POV there is little I can do. Sad article, sad website. Han Jo Jo (talk) 20:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Straw man, twice over. This discussion has nothing to do with whether "race does not exist", but with whether there's any RS support for the idea of classifying humans racially by taxa. There isn't. Secondly, neither the article nor anyone in this discussion has said "race does not exist"; rather, it is social construct, and a concept not supported by modern, reputable biological, anthropological, genetics, and other sources. It's a concept that retains currency pretty much only in sociology (i.e.: it is a social construct). People who don't understand or refuse to accept this are making a logic error, confusing the current scientific understanding that various human populations (overlapping and shifting) have averagable phenotypic traits and are distinct via various criteria, with the old idea of three (or four, or five) "races". It's like trying to apply a map of the surface of the moon to Eurasia and declaring you're going to navigate by it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

No it's not a general point about "whether there's any RS support for the idea of classifying humans racially by taxa" (there is). It's specifically about the statement in the article that race has no taxonomic significance because humans belong to the same first level subspecies division, which is a false statement. You're just repeating the same "race does not exist" mantra (throwing in some more diversionary fake arguments) to justify any nonsensical statement which has that conclusion. Fake science. See also WP:NOTFORUM Bobby Kwan (talk) 07:34, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MPants at work dictating discussion

Why does user "MPants at work" think he has the right to end discussion like some judge? He is more than welcome to refute my point, if he can. Has he been appointed commissar of official state science? Bobby Kwan (talk) 13:51, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

You made no points at all, all you did was use this page as a forum for your bitching and bullshit and hypocritically link another editor to WP:NOTFORUM. If you do not stop this you will be blocked from editing. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:56, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

You're a liar and my point is clear in my post. It's specifically about an article error, and a request for editors to stop trying to distract from this with WP:FORUM lectures and now procedural shenanigans. The environment here is disgraceful. Bobby Kwan (talk) 14:09, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Whatever. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)