Talk:Raid on Lunenburg, Nova Scotia (1756)

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Lnuk (Mi'kmaq) Tradition disagrees with much of this article[edit]

[copied from article by Magic♪piano 17:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)]


This is an incorrect interpretation of the primary historic records and sources indicated ... Silas Rand had his own obvious motives concerning Mi'kmaq for what he wrote ... as did the Payzants ... in 1756 Mi'kmaq and Malisit were at war (Maillard) from which Mi'kmaq emerged victorious ... it is ignorant of the times ... and seriously naive to believe Malisit war party could invade that far into Mi'kmaq territory unobserved and carry women and children prisoners though roughly two hundred miles of Mi'kmaq territory without a hostile encounter ... and during Mi'kmaq / Malisit conflict ... Boishébert was clearly in the Mi'kmaq camp (Check a little farther into some of the primary sources indicated) ... the French Document's mention "St. John River Indians" ... which can be a reference to either Malisit or Mi'kmaq ... and in this case the written record, common sense and Mi'kmaq oral tradition clearly indicate the attacks at Rous's and Payzant's were by Mi'kmaq ...

They were led by Mi'kmaq Sapal (warrior actively engaged in war) Muin Algomatin and Messet Thom Thoma ... Payzant discharged his musket and was immediately shot and killed by Wasgos Unskah known as "Joe Labrador ... this is Mi'kmaq tradition ... Mi'kmaq history ... not Malisit ...

Even some Payzant family traditions support Mi'kmaq ... (c. 1880) William Payzant from over Milton (Queens County, Nova Scotia) told Benjamin Dorey (Mi'kmaq) about the following incident ... toned down versions of which later found their way into a number of publications including those of Nova Scotia Historian "Clara Dennis":

William’s kinsman, Phillip Payzant operated a store at Dartmouth for a short time. When just a lad, Payzant witnessed his father's death at Covey's Island at the hands of the local Indians. Some Indians were in his store one day making purchases and he recognized among them the man who shot his father. He approached him and frankly said as much.

"I know you Labrador."

"You are the loathsome bastard of a scoundrel that killed my father."

"Aye Payzant” says Labrador, "Was I.”

"It was war then. T'is nay no more."

And with that Labrador calmly turned and left, followed by his companions."

Labrador was Mi'kmaq ...



There is insufficient information above to even identify potential sources for what you claim: throwing out author names or saying "dig into primary sources further" isn't really helpful. YOU have to do more work. Please provide bibliographic information (book titles, journal articles or titles, author names, identifying numbers like ISBNs, Google Book or JSTOR links, whatever) supporting your assertion. Magic♪piano 01:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi - Layton's book on the topic is the most detailed published work re: the raid on lunenburg and she is clear the evidence suggests the natives involved are Maliseet. She does not, however, include the references to Clara Dennis' work nor the names of the natives involved that you have indicated. It would be great to have these references and then put the ambiguity/ debate into the article. I find the reference to Labrador compelling.

As well, I'm really interested in a reference for the conflict between the Mi'kmaq and Maliseet so I can follow this up. Part of Layton's research reveals that the prisoners were taken to the Maliseet mission near Fredericton, NB before being taken to Quebec, which suggests the natives were Maliseet - do you have a reference/ evidence that might suggest that this did not happen?--Hantsheroes (talk) 17:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

This article has no primary sources ... not one ... if Mi'kmaq oral tradition is not considered a reliable primary source ... how is it the Payzant Family oral traditions [but interestingly not the ones that support Mi'kmaq]coming from John Payzant and Louis Payzant ... children at the time not likely to remember much ... are considered a reliable primary source ... Is it to be implied that the oral tradition of a white minister who was a child at the time of the event is somehow more reliable than that of a Mi'kmaq warrior who participated in the event ... there is a word for that ...

And when Philip ... the only one old enough at the time to actually remember ... spoke to the man who shot his father in Dartmouth ... he was talking to Joshua Labradore ... Mi'kmaq ...

I will try and find Clara Dennis's toned down version of this oral tradition [which ironically originated from William Payzant from Milton, Queens County N.S.]

John and Louis Payzant were likely relating their mother's version of events in a best case senerio ... and that makes it a secondary source ...

I'll be back with an "actual primary source" to the Mi'kmaq - Maliseet War of 1755 to 1759

Hi - If you have primary or secondary sources that contradict other primary sources re: the raid on lunenburg, I think putting the contradictory evidence in the article will enhance it. Can you give the full reference for the dialogue you cite above re: Labrador? Was the Mi'kmaq oral account ever written down - who was the original source? I checked in Ruth Whitehead's book The Old Man Told Us: Excerpts from Mic Mac History but she doesn't reference the raid. If we have a written record of the actual names of the Mi'kmaq involved in the raid, that would be fantastic.

The work of Linda Layton (formerly Linda Wood) is based on primary sources and published in an academic peer reviewed journal. Unlike an academic article, Wikipedia wants articles based primarily on secondary sources (i.e., published sources) for quality control reasons and because it is an encyclopedia - not a site for developing/ publishing original research. --Hantsheroes (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Most of Ruth's book is based on oral tradition ... "The Old Man Told Us" is a personal favorite of mine ... and Ruth is a wonderful person ... but no one questions her work ... she is not Mi'kmaq ... but Mi'kmaq historians are subjected to the third degree if they don't conform to the non-native view of their own history ... I am pointing this out to person who says I should do more work ... I guess I will have to ... because the persons who claim it was a Maliseet Raid at Covey's Island sure did not do very much work ... or thinking ...

Also ... every time First Nations won ... history describes it as a Massacre ... but when the Whites won ... it was a Great and Courageous Victory ... Custer's Great Victory at the "Battle of the Washita River" where Custer's men killed mostly women and children as opposed to the Massacre at the Little Big Horn ... or even closer to home as written in an essay by Byrd Awalt ...

"When Mi’kmaq attacked Dartmouth during the so-called “1751 Dartmouth Massacre”, most of the sixty plus of Clapham’s Rangers remained in the safety of the blockhouse instead of aiding the people they were intended to protect . Benoni Danks, Samuel Rogers and their Ranger’s idea of a great victory over the “Tarratine savages” near Digby was to massacre the women and children of a small Mi’kmaq encampment in their sleep. At Dartmouth, Mi’kmaq took forty prisoners. At Digby, future “Members” for Sackville: Danks, Rogers, and their men, took no prisoners and gave no quarter" ... the sourced end notes did not seem to copy but if you need them ... I'll provide them ...

Mi'kmaq have only recently started writing down tradition ... realizing we are rapidly loosing the old story tellers with no one to replace them ...yes there is a list of Mi'kmaq involved in this raid ... as is our version of how events unfolded ...

In my family ... this tradition originates with Wasogos Unskah ... "Joe" Joshua Labrador ...

Busy time of year at work ... but hopefully I will have a full response, with non-native sources, to all this put together in a few weeks ... wela'lin ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

"I am pointing this out to person who says I should do more work ... I guess I will have to ... because the persons who claim it was a Maliseet Raid at Covey's Island sure did not do very much work ... or thinking ..." Please be civil; accusing others of "not doing very much work" is impolite when everyone here is a volunteer. The burden of your claims is on you. If you have information to bring to the article that conforms to Wikipedia's standards for reliable sourcing, verification, and original research, it is welcome here, but you have to do the work to get it here unless someone volunteers otherwise. Although I am sympathetic to the notion that oral traditions are necessarily underrepresented by these sorts of standards, they help us sort out what is likely to be fact from fiction. That said, I think the article ought to characterize explicitly the primary sources used to construct parts of the story, and explicitly attribute assertions (like who claims the raiders were Maliseet) to those primary sources that make them. (Hantsheroes, for an example of what I mean by this, see Battle of Jumonville Glen.) Magic♪piano 14:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ma'tawelin [How are you?]

This definition of civil is a reflection of another culture ... not mine ... perhaps I am uncivil by this by this yardstick ... perhaps uncivilized ... maybe even a savage by some cultural standards ... but let me explain traditional Mi'kmaq culture ... respect is one of Mi’kmaq Virtues ... directness and honesty are hallmarks of respect and politeness ... wearing two faces is a deliberate show of disrespect ... is why Mi'kmaq are never afraid to ask to an Elder ... and always abide by answer ... no matter how plain-spoken and candid the feedback ... for this we respect not just our Elders … all Elders ... another one of Mi’kmaq Virtues ...

I do feel bad if I have offended ... not my intention … but let me be clear and honest at least one last time ... I find the misinformation surrounding Lnuk equally, if not more uncivil ... as in offensive ...

I also feel that a double standard relative to “sources” [hopefully unintentionally] is applied relative to this article and that will be abundantly clear when I present you with a “sourced” reply …

If prefer civil over respect and honesty ... not a problem ... I will give civil ...

Anyway ... I have nothing else to say on this matter until I present you with Mi'kmaq response and version of Lnuk history complete with traditional and non-native sources ...

Wela'lioq [Thank you all]

Algomatin [He sends] —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 02:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)