Talk:Rajneesh

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Former good article nomineeRajneesh was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
November 18, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
April 12, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
Did You KnowA fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 23, 2007.
Current status: Former good article nominee

Requested move 11 June 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:41, 18 June 2018 (UTC)


RajneeshOsho – There were two closures already to this discussion, which you can see in the Archives. However, both the closures were desperate and by a non-admin. Osho is the most common name for Rajneesh. It should not be a problem to change the article name, example such as Indian poet, lyricist and film director Gulzar is the common name which most people associate with instead of his real name Sampooran Singh Kalra or NBA basketball player Magic Johnson for Earvin Johnson Jr or CM Punk for Phillip Jack Brooks or Nasty (musician) for Aviesk Baniya

In this discussion in pinging the related, active and interest editors to express their views and discuss the outcome.

@Vanamonde93:, @CASSIOPEIA:, @Gpkp:, @Idera1123:, @Saqib:,@Graeme Bartlett:, @DavidWestT:, @DanLanglois:, @Salvidrim!:, @Amakuru:

Let's have a discussion to have a conclusion, which is not desperate. Accesscrawl (talk) 11:05, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Clarification - The October 2016 MRV closure (Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2016 October) was neither a "non-admin" nor a particularly "desperate" closure. As the admin who assessed MRV consensus and closed a discussion I hold no personal opinion on the subject and have not much to contribute to a new discussion. Ben · Salvidrim!  13:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Comment, 13 September 2016 (discussion)(Originally closed as moved, but was then relisted again after a move review). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Accesscrawl (talkcontribs)
  • Support - having seen the Netflix documentary, it was evident that the followers called him Osho back then, and still call him Osho today. Rowan Forest (talk) 15:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
    • The question is not what his followers call him. It's what is the name by which he is primarily known by the general public, not just his followers. Also, to be precise, when you refer to "back then", I think you're not referring to the period before 1989. It is before 1989 that he was the topic of the most press that came to the attention of the general public (at least in the United States). There was only about one year between his request to be called Osho and his death. There is also the potential ambiguity with Oshō and other topics at Osho (disambiguation). —BarrelProof (talk) 18:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Speaking of the Netflix documentary, I just did a little studying. I watched it too, and my unscientific personal impression was that most of the references to him in the documentary itself used "Bhagwan" or BSR or "Rajneesh", although there was also some use of "Osho". There were also a lot of partial matches for "Rajneesh", such as "Rajneeshee" and "Rajneeshpuram" and "Hotel Rajneesh" and "City of Rajneesh", which tends to reinforce the name. The people who stayed with him to the bitter end (esp. his attorney) sometimes called him Osho, most especially when referring to more recent events. For a more scientific survey, I noticed a few other things. The picture that is used to advertise the film (see it here) has "Rajneesh" in handwriting twice in the image (and no instances of "Osho"). I then surveyed all of the film critic reviews cited by Rotten Tomatoes (a website that aggregates film reviews from recognized film critics). One of them (Sunday Times (UK)), was a dead link, but I looked at the other nine: NPR, The Atlantic, RogerEbert.com, Time Magazine, Christianity Today, Missoula Independent, IndieWire, Triple J, and ArtsAtl. Three of these nine contained no mention whatsoever of the name "Osho" (e.g., NPR, The Atlantic, ArtsAtl). Four of them used both "Osho" and "Rajneesh" somewhat (Christianity Today, Missoula Independent, Triple J, Indiewire), and two of those four had only one instance of "Osho" (IndieWire and Triple J). The remaining two didn't contain either term exactly, but had some partial matches for "Rajneesh" (Time Magazine and RogerEbert.com). In a couple of them, the most frequent name was "Bhagwan". My overall conclusion from this exercise is that "Rajneesh" or BSR would be the most recognizable, next would be "Bhagwan", and "Osho" trails. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:27, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If you're going to reopen a requested move which has already failed twice, it would be usual to explain what has changed since the last request which might make this one succeed. Since that is absent, and there's seemingly no new evidence to discuss, I refer you to my oppose vote on the last discussion. The WP:COMMONNAME in English language reliable sources is Rajneesh, and that's what matters, not what his supporters say.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
The body of the article states: in February 1989 took the name "Osho Rajneesh", shortened to "Osho". Maybe that can be included in the first sentence of the intro and call it resolved. Rowan Forest (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Amakuru: Please check the updates on the discussion. I'm sure New York Times, The Indian Express, Washington Post, etc are not his supporters. Accesscrawl (talk) 10:43, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Both the NYT and Washington Post articles call him "Rajneesh" in their headlines, and the NYT article says he is "better known to many Americans as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". That appears to me to be evidence that these publications think the most recognizable name for him is "Rajneesh". The Indian Express article includes "aka Bhagwan Rajneesh" in its first sentence, and the "Osho" in its headline is within a quoted phrase from a supporter (i.e., someone who says "I think our country is in need of Osho's thought process the most right now"). Also, were those sources identified by looking for all sources that refer to him, or by preferentially looking for sources that call him Osho? —BarrelProof (talk) 18:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I wonder if we should consider renaming the article to Osho Rajneesh. As pointed out by Rowan Forest, he chose that as his name, and it seems to be recognizable and perhaps acceptable both by people who refer to him as "Rajneesh" and those who refer to him as "Osho". It also does not suffer from as much ambiguity as either "Osho" or "Rajneesh" by themselves. Regarding the mention that it is "shortened to 'Osho'", does this mean he actually did not want "Rajneesh" to be part of his name at all anymore, or was he just saying he preferred that as the short form? The two cited sources for that statement in the article are offline sources, so I can't see what they said. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Both NYT and WASHINGTON POST are notable newspapers from America. Firstly, Why wouldn't they mention what a subject was popularly known in "their" country? Second, 'better known to many Americans as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh' How would you define 'many'? Also, is wikipedia only serving America? It appears to me that the world is in a transitions for his name. Old generation prefer calling him Rajneesh or Bhagwan or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and the newer folks are clueless about the name Rajneesh or bhagwan or bhagwan shree rajneesh. Only for this reason Publications always mention Osho aka Bhagwan Shree rajneesh or Rajneesh. It is to bridge the gap between old and new generations information. Check out the searches made on google for Rajneesh v/s osho. That will clearly state what is his popular name. Accesscrawl (talk) 02:58, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Question: How was that list of people to ping selected? I was an active participant in the last RM and its MRV, and I appear frequently in the article's edit history, but I was not included in the ping. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Respond @BarrelProof ,It is a random selection of interest editors and active editors. Few those were pinged are altogether new to this. Few regulars were randomly pinged.Accesscrawl (talk) 01:59, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
      • @Accesscrawl: I'm sure you meant well here, but please read WP:CANVAS, and be careful when pinging particular people to a conversation. Because if you only ping a subset of the people previously involved, even if you do so in good faith, and randomly selecting, you risk creating a skewed conversation. The number of people pinged who previously opposed may exceed those who supported, or vice versa. In general you should either ping nobody, or you should ping everybody, and explicitly say which group you have decided to ping (for example, everyone who participated in the previous RM, on both sides). Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 08:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
        • @Amakuru, I'm taking care of WP:CANVAS. Accesscrawl (talk) 08:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
        • I reviewed the list of the 10 users who were pinged. I think I detect some bias in favor of the proposal in that selection, but not an especially strong one. Of the 10 pings, I find 5 that might be perceived as favoring the proposal (one who previously moved the article from Rajneesh to Osho, one who changed the name in the article's infobox from Rajneesh to Osho, one who proposed moving the article from Rajneesh to Osho, one who made Talk page comments that consistently referred to the subject as Osho, and one who closed the MRV as reopen while saying the MRV tended toward endorsing the move from Rajneesh to Osho). Although I refer to potential perception of support for those users, some of those actions are not really clear indications of support. I find 1 that previously expressed opposition to the proposal (Amakuru), 1 that was consulted and provided what appears to be neutrally phrased advice (CASSIOPEIA), and 3 that seem uninvolved and inexplicable (Idera1123, Saqib, and Graeme_Bartlett). —BarrelProof (talk) 17:18, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
        • Till the time you don't detect a strong case of bias because of the pinging it is just crystal ball reading. I requested number of editors to open the discussion as i was new to it. None did. One of them helped me to open it and asked me to ping editors, I pinged editors randomly. If that created a pattern, that is solely spontaneous. I've asked some more neutral editors to join in the discussion on their talk pages. So that the discussion becomes healthy.Accesscrawl (talk) 03:06, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
        • perhaps pinging editors involved in previous move discussions, or at least the most recent one (2016), would be advisable. Acousmana (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
        • I've pinged personally to 50+ editors on their talk pages. I don't think anybody is interested in discussing. Only few interest editors turned up. Negligible contribution. Accesscrawl (talk) 19:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
        • pinging 50+ editors is very unusual, how many of those have actually edited the article, engaged in previous move discussions, or have demonstrated an interest in the subject matter? Acousmana (talk) 10:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
        • what is unusual when one pings editors? Accesscrawl (talk) 11:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
        • i can only suggest you read WP:CAN and consider if "mass posting" might apply. What determined who it was that you pinged? Acousmana (talk) 14:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
        • Who determines what is mass and what is limited posting? 5 can be mass for a not so well known article and 50 can be less for a Donald Trump discussion. Moreover, if any biased is noticed in this discussion of page move. We shall come up with this component of WP:CAN. Otherwise this suggestions are just simply increasing your edit counts. Accesscrawl (talk) 15:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

seems excessive, can't remember similar instance, again, can I ask you: What determined who it was that you pinged? the guidelines are clear with respect to inappropriateness, can you demonstrate that you adhered to the recommendations? Acousmana (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Accesscrawl, you are still canvassing. What is your justification for asking this editor to join in on a RM on a subject their editing history strongly suggests they wouldn't have a clue about, or be interested in? Have you comprehended what WP:CANVAS means? You seem to be pulling users/editors out of a hat. You've been queried as to how and why you are pinging so many people, yet you've provided no valid explanation, nor have you curtailed your activities. Please understand that such behaviour is disruptive. See WP:APPNOTE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Neutral - In India I have come across the name 'Osho' more than 'Rajneesh'. I don't know about other places. But since Osho redirects here, I am OK with it. Thanks Vivek Ray (talk) 06:41, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose He was known as Rajneesh for almost his entire highly visible public career, and selected the Osho name only in the final months of his life. The vast majority of reliable, independent sources that devote significant coverage to this person use the name "Rajneesh". A redirect from Osho to Rajneesh is the best solution. Non-independent sources like his publisher should be ignored. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:12, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Nobody has mentioned Non-independent sources like his publisher yet. The sources mentioned are independent. Moreover, coming to the popularity of people knows him as, as i've already mentioned. Compare the google searches. Rajneesh v/s osho Accesscrawl (talk) 07:26, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment Google search take place, when some one wants to know more about a subject which he has heard or seen, offline or online. That subject becomes the keyword. In this case as repeatedly mentioned, According to kwfinder.com there is ~4,51,000 avg monthly search of the keyword "OSHO" when compared to ~40,000 avg monthly search for "Rajneesh". That is strong point for the popularity of subject according to WP:COMMONNAME. Top results of this searches are Wikipedia Rajneesh page. To make the point - People aren't looking for Rajneesh. They want to know about Osho. That is the reason the searches for osho keyword is overpowering Rajneesh. Now one can argue, but osho was called rajneesh. That information is valid and can be a part of article infobox, "Other Names". Not the title. But the point is, whenever you want to know about Osho directly, wikipedia will beat around the bush with the name and give you information which says "Sir, the person you are looking is called Rajneesh." However, if one would want to know about Rajneesh one would have searched Rajneesh not Osho. The search volume of osho would have never overpowered Rajneesh. Wikipedia is giving the right information, but it is outdated information because Once upon a time he was called Rajneesh not anymore, and that fact has to be accepted. I would say that wikipedia is misleading the google searches. I'm sure misleading is the last thing the encyclopedia would like to do. Google searches :Rajneesh v/s osho. Accesscrawl (talk) 23:35, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Reply to Accesscrawl. We simply do not use raw counts of Google hits to determine article titles, especially for a person who died when the internet was in its infancy, long before Google was founded. Instead, we take a look at the full range of reliable independent published sources that devote significant coverage to the person, and those sources either call him Rajneesh or, more recently, acknowledge that Rajneesh is the name he was best known as. He only abandoned the Rajneesh name a few months before he died. The list of six people you posted below were or are widely known by the name in the article title for many, many years. None of them changed their name in the last months of their lives. As for your comments about the United States, it is clear that this person came to worldwide fame while a resident of the U.S. and in connection with several serious crimes committed by his followers in the U.S. The massive wordwide media coverage of those days universally calls him Rajneesh, and therefore so should Wikipedia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Reply What do you mean by raw counts? This google search counts clearly states the popularity. Moreover, I've provided "Full range of reliable independent sources" who calls him osho. Including NYT. Here goes more information covered by independent press media. You aren't trusting Google, you aren't with NYT and others. Wikipedia is all about updates, we are still stuck in 1985 when he visited America, when he was called Rajneesh. Important thing is what he is popularly known today. It is American hangover that Old generation prefer calling him Rajneesh or Bhagwan or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and the newer folks are clueless about the name Rajneesh or bhagwan or bhagwan shree rajneesh. Only for this reason Publications always mention Osho aka Bhagwan Shree rajneesh or Rajneesh. It is to bridge the gap between old and new generations information. He changed his name to OSHO and people know him as osho. Enough proof has been provided. Moreover, 60% of the other language wikipedia page uses the title OSHO. Accesscrawl (talk) 00:38, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
The goal is not just to identify whether there are some reliable independent sources "who calls him osho" (and ignoring things like whether their headline uses "Rajneesh"). It is to identify how he is most typically referred to (and most recognizable as) in all of the independent reliable sources (among other factors such as whether it is appropriate to include something like like "Bhagwan", which seems to be an honorific). Please see MOS:ID: "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources." (emphasis added) See also WP:SPNC and its discussion of Cat Stevens. Were those sources identified by looking for all sources that refer to him, or by preferentially looking for sources that call him Osho? —BarrelProof (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Assuming that you are making sense, still he isn't commonly called Rajneesh, he was either called Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh or osho. Some of the RS are mentioned where there is "No Rajneesh" in the title. Also consider google searches. That is clear consensus. If we are finding it difficult to find a balance, Google searches will give us a clue of what are people actually looking for. Accesscrawl (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this article was constructed using the best secondary sources available, most of it is academic literature, the majority of which uses the title Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Osho Rajneesh has also been used in some literature, but I personally would prefer the former. Note that the majority of secondary sources cited, and even more recent scholarly writings, still use Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Also, in terms of search results, usage hits via google scholar are more revealing: "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh" usage 1970-2018 (2040 hits), "Osho Rajneesh" usage 1970-2018 (458 hits),"Osho" Google Scholar usage 1970-2018 (255 hits - not all associated with usage here). Acousmana (talk) 16:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@Acousmana: why did you mark oppose if you prefer BSR? Accesscrawl (talk) 16:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
because the proposed move is to 'Osho' not BSR.Acousmana (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I would not mark oppose if I oppose the current title. I would have marked comment or simply commented. Anyways, that is your call. However, if google is considered. Please check searches for the names Rajneesh v/s osho Accesscrawl (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
did you, or did you not, propose this article be moved to Osho? If yes, I oppose this, what's not clear about that? re:google, it's already explained above why a raw search, in this context, demonstrates little of value. Acousmana (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Per nom,comments and reply by Accesscrawl. Akhiljaxxn (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. The arguments put forward are convincing, and my own researches indicate an overwhelming use of Osho as the primary means of discussing this person in a variety of sources, compounded by the large volume of publications by him, which use just Osho - including this 2015 book published by Penguin. I have rarely seen such a wide and comprehensive current use of a name in a Move request. I can understand the opposes, but they appear to be based on an outdated naming protocol or on a reluctance to accept yet another move request when there have been so many. But we should get this right, and if the name is wrong, then its wrong. SilkTork (talk) 12:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
I am getting the impression that the evidence is being selectively chosen to promote the name change. I have asked twice about how the sources cited in support of the name change were chosen, and have not received a satisfactory answer. Certainly it is possible to find sources that support different names – that is not what's important. I have been thinking that perhaps the issue is a difference between how he is known in the U.S. and in India (in independent reliable sources). But a very interesting point that I just learned about is that the corresponding article in the Hindi Wikipedia is at रजनीश, i.e., "Rajneesh". To me that puts very strong doubt on the theory that "Osho" is the overwhelmingly dominant name for him in India. Clearly the two most relevant places are the U.S. and India. I'm getting the impression that the divide here is primarily between independent sources and promotional sources. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I must respectfully disagree with SilkTork, who to their credit is the first "support" post so far to argue on the basis of policy, and also in its spirit rather than simply its letter. That Penguin book is an official publication of OSHO Media International, all of which now refer to Rajneesh as Osho. Per Amakuru, Cullen328 and BarrelProof above, I wouldn't call that an independent source, and the independent sources I've found in searches over the past few days lean heavily toward the use of BSR. I just can't see any new evidence introduced here for the move. SilkTork, could you please summarize what you've found apart from that 2015 book? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. TMGtalk 12:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@The Mighty Glen: just to concur with your observations, the vast majority of independent scholarly sources on the subject (and reputable tertiary sources, including the Encyclopedia Britannica) still use Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. A few 2018 publications include New Religions as Global Cultures, Religions as brands? Religion and spirituality in consumer society in the Journal of Management, Spirituality & Religion, and Religion, Society, And Psychoanalysis, all published by Taylor & Francis.Acousmana (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The case for Osho is remarkably weak. The nom, for example, bases its arguments on WP:OTHERSTUFF rather than on an analysis of the two names and then devolves into lose talk about "older" and "younger" generations, none of which amounts to evidence. Based on the sources I'm seeing here, independent sources refer to this individual both as Rajneesh as well as Osho, apparently with a preference to putting Rajneesh in the headline, while sources associated with the Osho organizations refer to him as Osho. That the hindi wikipedia uses Rajneesh rather than Osho is also quite telling. Since we shouldn't use honorifics in the title of an article, I think this article is at its correct title and there is no need to change it. --regentspark (comment) 20:37, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • New York Times article on Osho refers to the subject throughout the article as “Osho.” The New York Times used the name “Osho” 16 years ago throughout the article, using “Rajneesh” only to provide further identifying information, seen as relevant by the Ny Times 16 years ago.
  • Jacqueline Fernandez has expressed her will to play Ma Anand Sheela to the Indian newspaper The Asian Age. The whole article doesn't contain the name Rajneesh. However, She has mentioned Osho twice.
  • Kourtney Kardashian and Osho “She read a book by Indian mystic and guru Osho, as the father of her two children whipped out his Macbook Pro laptop, sporting a pair of pinkish red swim trunks.”
Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) Name changes sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, WP:COMMONNAME still applies, but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, per WP:COMMONNAME.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Use_commonly_recognizable_names
The following are examples(apart from few given above) of the application of the concept of commonly used names in support of recognizability:
People
Because the vast majority of the public will today find Osho as an author, the name under which he is almost universally published and thus known, is “independent and reliable” evidence of common usage. And they overwhelmingly reflect the public’s present understanding of the article’s subject as “Osho,” not “Rajneesh. Accesscrawl (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I believe the reason that he is generally encountered as as an author today as "Osho" is that his works are copyrighted, and the people who own the copyright are actively promoting the use of that name for him. They will not allow publications of his works under the name "Rajneesh" and similar. As Wikipedia, we try to pay more attention to independent sources than to promotional and affiliated sources. To the vast majority of people, at least in the United States, he is known as the man at the center of the major events that took place in the United States in the early and mid-1980s, and thus is primarily known as Rajneesh or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. While he might have been referred to by his new preferred name in some more recent publications, he still seems most recognizable as Rajneesh to most people. It seems a bit like Cat Stevens (although Stevens hasn't been associated with any notorious crimes). Cat Stevens has eventually returned to sometimes using his old name, since he knows that's how most people know him. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:22, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
The name Osho was not decided after his death for copyright purposes. He chose that name in 1989. Rowan Forest (talk) 02:26, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
I think no one has ever said the name was chosen after his death or for copyright purposes. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
"the people who own the copyright are actively promoting the use of that name for him." -BarrelProof. I'm sorry, it must have been your evil twin brother fooling around with your WP account. Rowan Forest (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Using the copyright to promote the name is not the same thing as choosing the name for copyright purposes. Perhaps there is a language understanding problem here. There is no dispute about the basic facts. He chose the name "Osho", and he did so shortly before he died. It was not chosen by someone else – it was chosen by him. There is no indication that the reasons for his choice of the name had anything to do with copyrights. According to the Osho International Foundation, he also "requested that everything previously branded with RAJNEESH to be rebranded OSHO" ("OSHO: Background Information". Archived from the original on 24 March 2012. Retrieved 10 January 2011. ) In support of that request, the people who now own the copyright to his works are now identifying him as "Osho" when publishing his works. This is not the same thing as saying that he is primarily known to Osho now, since many of the people who are familiar with him as an encyclopedic subject are not his followers and are not recent readers of his published works. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
His works was copyrighted since he started. Check the same document you have mentioned Osho Background info. I don't know why do you mention first "vast" majority and later debunk it to "atleast" in America. What does that imply? The event occurred in America in mid 80's was just a minute part of his whole work. Considering what happened there, Antelope should still be called town Rajneesh. As it was popularly called Rajneesh and officially named too and Rajneesh people were majority there then. As i've mentioned before, people rarely are searching Rajneesh when compared to osho searches on Google. However, asking all the wikipedia expert and Admins, is there a possibility to find the trail how user gets on Wikipedia page? After searching what on google. That'll clear the air.Accesscrawl (talk) 03:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The reason I said "at least in the United States" is simply because I want to acknowledge that am not very familiar with the culture and the sources in India and their reliability. It seems that there might be a difference between the way he is known in the two places. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Why mentioning America is needed in the first place? There are 195 countries, if everyone starts mentioning what is he called in their country it'll take a decade to end this discussion. Accesscrawl (talk) 05:47, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
Are you joking? Major events involving the topic of the article took place in the United States. Much of the article is devoted to those events. There is the establishment of a huge commune in a rural area, a fleet of Rolls Royce cars, dramatically unconventional religious and social and sexual behavior, the takeover of a city, the attempted takeover of a county, recruiting and later ejection of homeless people on a large scale, a series of biological attacks using Salmonella bacteria, a plot to kill a high government official, a longer hit list of potential targets, immigration fraud relating to sham marriages, bugging of his private conversations, his forced ejection from the country, the collapse of his commune. All that took place in the United States. That is all rather notable, and he was the one key figure at the focal center of all of that action. —BarrelProof (talk) 06:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
This list is big, but that doesn't implies "Major". There was a attempt assassination in India on him. He was exempted entry from 21 countries including US. If all the 21 countries starts counting what happened during that period of his stay. Something or the other "Major" event would come up. My suggestion is lets look broader view, world view. Not limited to America or India or any other country. Accesscrawl (talk) 07:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
The 21 countries that denied him entry after his ejection from the U.S. aren't even identified in the article. I think it is rather obvious that the countries that are the most relevant to this article are the U.S. and India. That is where he has attracted the most attention. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:01, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
I assume that overall popularity is indifferent of where he has grabbed more attention. Name move should have no impact on where the events happened or what events are mentioned in the article. Wherever and whatever the events would have happened, we are looking for unanimous name through this discussion. Accesscrawl (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Across most of the notable literature on the subject, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh is by far the most widely used title for this individual.We generally refer to the best secondary sources to ascertain appropriate titles, those sources, in this instance, are mostly academic publications, most of which use "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh."
  • Guideline quote, "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change."
  • We generally refer to the best secondary sources [especially in controversial topics] and those sources in this instance are mostly academic publications: most of which use Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh or some variation.
  • Marion Goldman (a notable academic commentator on Rajneesh) interchanges Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh with Osho Rajneesh in an Oxford University Press book published in 2011 (Goldman, Marion S. 2011. Cultural Capital, Social Networks, and Violence at Rajneeshpuram. In Violence and New Religious Movements. Edited by James R. Lewis).
  1. Melton, J. Gordon (2009), "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh", [[Encyclopedia Britannica]], retrieved 2009-04-23  URL–wikilink conflict (help)
  2. Kushner, Harvey W. (2002), "Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree", Encyclopedia of Terrorism, SAGE, pp. 306–307, ISBN 0761924086 
  3. Fahlbusch, Erwin (1999), "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh", The encyclopedia of Christianity, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, p. 233, ISBN 0802824137  Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  4. Doniger, Wendy (2006), "Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree", Britannica Encyclopedia of World Religions, Encyclopaedia Britannica, p. 902, ISBN 1593394918 
  5. Houghton Mifflin Company (2003), "Rajneesh, Baghwan Shree", The Houghton Mifflin dictionary of biography, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, p. 1261, ISBN 9780618252107 
  6. Joseph, Bea (1986), "Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree", Biography index, 14, H.W. Wilson Company, p. 566 
  7. Parry, Melanie (1997), "Rajneesh, Baghwan Shree", Chambers Biographical Dictionary, Chambers, p. 1529, ISBN 0550160604 
  8. "Rajneesh, Shree" World Encyclopedia. Philip's, 2008. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. 26 April 2009 <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t142.e9655>
  9. "Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions. Ed. John Bowker. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. 26 April 2009 <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t101.e5930>
  10. "Rajneesh, Bhagwan Shree" Oxford Dictionary of Hinduism. Ed. W. J. Johnson. Oxford University Press, 2009. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. 26 April 2009 <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t272.e2018>
  11. "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2009. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
  12. "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh." Encyclopedia of World Biography, 2nd ed. 17 Vols. Gale Research, 1998. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2009. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
  • Examples of wiki article naming across other territories:

Italian Wikipedia - "Osho Rajneesh", Dutch Wikipedia - "Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh", Polish Wikipedia - "Osho (Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)", and Portuguese Wikipedia

  • Majority of biographical materials [reliable secondary content] cited in the article have "Rajneesh" in the title. Acousmana (talk) 15:15, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@Acousmana: So according to this information you've provided Rajneesh is still the wrong title. It should be Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Also, when we observe the title in other territories Osho is most commonly used Title,placed in bracket or together with Rajneesh. Accesscrawl (talk) 16:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
it's not wrong, or right, it's the result of consensus building. I personally believe the long standing Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh title should never have been changed. The literature on the subject clearly uses BSR most frequently. Acousmana (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • check A comment made by User Akhiljaxxn is seen in the edit history but not reflecting here. Please check @Acousmana:, @Akhiljaxxn:, @BarrelProof: Accesscrawl (talk) 17:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Appears to have been an accidental overwrite during an edit conflict. I've just re-adds it above. TMGtalk 18:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

AfD: George Meredith (sannyasin)[edit]

Resolved

Page watchers may be interested in contributing to the deletion discussion for George Meredith (sannyasin). Thanks, ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:43, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

AfD : Osho Times[edit]

Resolved

Any interest editors would want to contribute deletion discussion of Osho Times Accesscrawl (talk) 06:35, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

This page is far too reverential[edit]

Stating he had no knowledge of the crimes, we don't know that at all. Also, why no mention of the crimes he was convicted of? This shouldn't be some sort of recruiting screed or loving write-up, which is it. JannJann101 (talk) 04:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Is it diverging from reliable sources somewhere? Simonm223 (talk) 19:18, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
His page doesn't mention which crimes he was convicted of, shouldn't it? JannJann101 (talk) 04:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)