Talk:Ramesses II

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Former good articleRamesses II was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 8, 2005Good article nomineeListed
June 23, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
July 19, 2008Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

This talk page is automatically archived by MiszaBot. Any sections older than 14 days are automatically archived to Talk:Ramesses II/Archive 5. Sections without timestamps are not archived.

Ramesses II age and Years in the Throne[edit]

Ramesses II reigned for 67 Years( 62 years and 2 month to be exact) from 1279 BCE to 1213 BCE, Historical texts shows that he lived to 92 Years of age. He was born 1303 BCE and assumed power in 1279 , That makes him 24 Years of age and not a teenager — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Aleksinko (talkcontribs) 19:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism[edit]

On 21st September, SparklingPessimist changed all of the dates from BC/AD to BCE/CE

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramesses_II&oldid=801773037

This goes against MOSNUM that says you shouldn't change from one to the other. BC/AD was the original date system and thus these changes should be reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.54.145 (talk) 14:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Doesn’t add up[edit]

Currently says;

Born c1303 BC... He is believed to have taken the throne in his late teens and is known to have ruled Egypt from 1279 to 1213 BC. (66 years, and a bit.)

As 15Feb 2018 above says (in Talk). Doesn’t add up: 1303, 1279 or teen? MBG02 (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Rameses, Ramesses, Ramses[edit]

It would be useful to explain in the article somewhere why Ramesses is preferred to Ramses, the more usual English form. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Reign[edit]

Could someone explain this to me, then maybe clarify it on the page? Ramesses had fourteen Sed festivals. The first one was supposedly held after he'd reigned thirty years, and further festivals were held every three years. If you do the math, that makes a reign of sixty-nine years. But it was sixty-six years, according to the page. What gives? --ShorinBJ (talk) 07:34, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@ShorinBJ: The text in the Sed festival section says he celebrated 13 or 14 sed festivals, and 13 would be consistent with a reign of 66 or 67 years. The source that sentence cites—though I'm not sure how reliable it is—says "Ramses II (19th Dynasty)—who reigned for 67 years—celebrated 13 or 14 festivals, as he often left 2 instead of 3 years between his Heb Seds." A. Parrot (talk) 23:21, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
@A. Parrot: Oh. Well, the opening section just says there were fourteen Sed festivals and he reigned sixty-six years. --ShorinBJ (talk) 00:33, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
@ShorinBJ: I've changed the lead to say "thirteen or fourteen". Thanks for pointing this out. A. Parrot (talk) 04:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

A Pharaoh with a Passport (Or, 13 Years without a Reliable Source)[edit]

Summary[edit]

For 13 years, this article has claimed that Ramesses' mummy was issued a passport. At various times, the claim has been tagged with Template:Verify source, Template:Failed verification, and Template:Unreliable source?. Because the claim is very unlikely to be true, and there's no reliable source, I've removed the following text from the article:

Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)".<ref>{{cite web|url=https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/mummy-passport-0010944|title=Mummy of Pharaoh Ramesses II Issued a Passport to Travel to France|website=Ancient Origins|date=3 November 2018|accessdate=19 September 2019}}</ref>{{Unreliable source?|date=October 2019}}

Relevant policies[edit]

WP:VERIFY states

All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed.

WP:RELIABLE states

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

Relevant history[edit]

On 2006-11-08, user ThutmoseIII added the following text to the Mummy section:

In 1974, Cairo Museum Egyptologists noticed that the mummy's condition was getting worse rapidly. They decided to fly Rameses II mummy to Paris for examination. Ramses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased).Once in Paris, Ramses mummy was diagnosed and treated for a fungal infection. During the examination, scientific analysis revealed battle wounds and old fractures, as well as the pharaoh's arthritis and poor circulation.

Ever since, this "mummy with a passport!" factoid has been showing up across the Internet in "Did you know..."-type articles and places like todayilearned on Reddit.

The problem is, it doesn't appear to be true. In 13 years, no one's ever been able to find a single reliable source for it. The fact that the mummy went to France in 1976, not 1974, makes me doubt the original editor's reliability, or his source's reliability. I also spent several hours looking at the contemporaneous news stories, and they don't mention anything about a passport -- and that's the type of fun fact that newspapers love to feature.

On 2008-05-15, User:Markh added some cites:

In 1974, Egyptologists visiting his tomb noticed that the mummy's condition was rapidly deteriorating. They decided to fly Ramesses II's mummy to Paris for examination.[1] Ramesses II was issued an Egyptian passport that listed his occupation as "King (deceased)." The mummy was received at a Paris airport with the full military honours befitting a king.[2]

The 2nd citation's link (working version) is paywalled, but does provide info about the mummy's France trip. The 1st citation is mostly useless -- it presents information about Ramesses' life, but only contains 1 throwaway line about his mummy ("Ramesses has gained a multimedia afterlife: his mummy is flown from Cairo to Paris to be exhibited and re-autopsied...").

On 2010-01-28, User:ליאור added a "verification needed" tag, noting that "[t]his strange assertion does not appear in the provided sources."

On 2010-07-22, the response from User:Doradus was to add a cite to a National Geographic Channel page about "Engineering Egypt". The page doesn't display correctly, even on the Internet Archive snapshot, but if you View Source you'll see that they simply copy-pasted the whole "In 1974, Cairo Museum Egyptologists..." paragraph from Wikipedia -- an instance of circular reporting.

On 2019-03-04, User:Susmuffin added a "Not in citation given" tag to the passport cite, noting "I am having trouble finding a reliable source for the passport." (From looking at Internet Archive snapshots, the NatGeo Channel page stopped working prior to 2012.)

On 2019-09-19, User:UniSail2 replaced the NatGeo cite with a cite to a page ("Mummy of Pharaoh Ramesses II Issued a Passport to Travel to France") on the "Ancient Origins" website. This page helpfully displays a faked image of an Egyptian passport bearing a photo of Ramesses' mummy. At the bottom of the page, it links to its sources, such as Ripley's Believe It or Not!. (For those not in the know, Ancient Origins describes itself as "the only Pop Archaeology site combining scientific research with out-of-the-box perspectives," publishing stories such as "Is Bigfoot Real? Emerging Scientific Evidence".)

On 2019-10-30, User:Jeroen N added an "Unreliable source?" tag to the claim. His edit summary stated

requesting reliable source for the statement that the mummy was issued a passport as this seems highly unlikely (ancient-origins.net does not appear to be a reliable source, and the sources it cites are either unreliable – one is a Wikipedia mirror – or do not mention this 'fact')

Flamerule (talk) 06:19, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Huh. Disappointing that National Geographic isn't reliable. --Doradus (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)