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Heading misleading: Ramones definitely not the first punk band
The heading is misleading when it says that many cite the Ramones as "the first punk rock band." I am not arguing with the fact that many people do, indeed, make that claim, but that the way it is worded is misleading. The Ramones were not even remotely the first punk rock band (by a long shot). Neither, for that matter, were MC5 or the Stooges. The first punk rock bands were the garage rock bands of the mid-60's (circa 1963-1967). I am not denying The Ramones' punk credentials (as some people in these posts have). I definitley consider them to be true punk rock (great punk!!!)--just not the first. The heading should instead read: "The Ramones are often cited as the first modern punk band." Note: "...modern...." Let me explain.
In the early 70's certain inluential rock critics retroactively used the term "punk rock" to describe the mid-60's garage bands as a sub-genre, making it the first time the word was used as such to refer to a style of rock. (D. Marsh, Review for Question Mark & the Mysterions. Creem Magazine. May, 1971) (L. Kaye, liner notes to Nuggets LP compilation. Electra Records. 1972) To quote Lenny Kaye's liner notes to the original 1972 "Nuggets" LP compitaion:
"...In addition, most of these groups (and by and large, this was an era dominated by groups) were young, decidedly unprofessional, seemingly more at home practicing for a teen dance than going out on a national tour. The name that has been unofficially coined for them--"punk rock"--seems particularly fitting in this case." (L. Kaye, "Headed, Decked, and Stroked..." original liner notes for Nuggets. (Electra, 1972))
Go to the website, "Etymology of Punk (and the Developent of How the Term Came to be Used in Rock) (www.johnsavage.com/punk-etymology). It quotes and cites numerous articles from 1969-the late 70's. From 1971-1975, "Punk Rock," is used time and time again to refer to the garage rock of the mid-60's. The word "garage band," is also used, but not nearly as often as "punk." The critics do allow the extension of the term "punk rock" to apply to contemporary artists of that era (1971-1975), as well. You will see references to various contemporry artists of the time that the critics percived as "punk rock" at the time. Some references may surprise you (Bob Seger, Grand Funk Railroad, Springsteen, etc.). Some may not (Iggy and the Stooges, early Alice Kooper). But, one thing is certain: the barometer for whether or not they considered a contemporary group artist "punk" was the degree to which that group or artist was percieved to embody the spirit of the mid-60's garage bands.
In the article, "The Shakin' Street Punk Survey," by Metal Mike Saunders (that appeared in the "Shakin Street Gazette" Nov.7, 1974) Sauners speaks of the mid-70's punk movement in New York as a punk "revival" (not as a new thing called punk): "...the punk music revival is now in full swing.". (M. Saunders, "Shakin' Street Punk Survey," Shakin Steet Gazette. November, 1974) He also talks about the influence of the Nuggets compilation LP on their New York contemporaries." (M. Saunders, "Shakin' Street Punk Survey," Shakin Steet Gazette. November, 1974)
Over a year and a half earlier, Greg Shaw, in his Rolling Stone review of Nuggets had said:
"Punk Rock at its best is the closest we came in the 60's to the original rockabilly spirit of Rock 'n Roll, ie Punk Rock The Arrogant Underbelly of Sixties Pop..." (Rolling Stone, Jan. 4, 1973). (G. Shaw. Rolling Stone, Jan. 4, 1973)
A few years later, Shaw in review for a live show by the Sex Pistols at the 100 club (Record, June 1976), describes them as "punk rock," but in the context of how they fit into his previous definition of the term, not as a new definition (keep in mind that, at that time, they often did covers of old mid-60's songs, such as "Stepping Stone," by Paul Revere and the Raiders and "Substitute," by The Who). It is not until the Sex Pistols got really big and become a cause celebre all over England (post-Grundy show appearance) that the term "punk" shifted away from its previous definition to designating a new phenominon.
But, the article that goes into the most detail about the early definition for mid 60's garage as "punk," is "White Punks on Coke," by Mick Houghton (Let it Rock, Dec. 1975) He talks extensively about the "resurrection," of punk currently going on (i.e. what we would assume to be the New York Scene--CBGB's, etc.). At great length, he litanizes the various "punk" bands of the 60's: ? & The Mysterions, The Castaways, The Count Five, The Shadows of The Knight, The Barbarians, The Seeds, The Blues magoos, etc. Read it. To Houghton:
"But that challenge [to the British Invasion] was taken up by a plethora of amorphous garage bands which sprang up in the suburbs of American cities. It is among these groups that punk rock began. (Let It Rock, Dec. 1975) (M. Houghton. Let It Rock. Dec. 1975)
Over and over, the rock critics made it absolutely clear that they considered the garage rock to be the original (and touchstone) form of punk rock. Terms such as "protopunk" and "pre-punk" were false revisionisms that came later, after the fame, or rather, infamous notoriety of the Sex Pistols (incidently that very notoriety is one reason why the Ramones became reluctant to use the term "punk" to describe themselves after 1977).
During the during the mid-70's punk entered its modern era: i.e. its most recognizable form (1975-present) in which it became self-referentially defined from within as "punk rock," and became a seperate subculture (a movement) of its own, replete with its own manifestos, ideologies (as pertaining to the movement as a whole or to factions within the movement), and its own visual fashion sensibilities. But punk rock as a musical style pre-dates the subculture that grew around it by well over a decade.
If you have any doubts that punk rock existed before 1975 (or for that matter before 1968), then go to YouTube and pull up "60's punk" (or even try "1966 punk"). You will come up with hundreds of entries--as many as (if not more than) in any other subseqent era.
Then sample the following songs (pre-1968): "7 and 7 Is," by Love (1966), "Voices Green and Purple," by the Bees (1966), "The World Ain't Round, It's Square," by The Savages (1966), "Destination Lonely," by The Huns (1966--original mix/original release), "We're Pretty Quick,' by the Chob (1967), "1523 Blair," by The Outcasts (1966), "I'm Movin' On" and "From a Curbstone," by Evil (1966), "Project Blue," by The Banshees (1966), "Circuit Breaker", by The Pastels (1965), "The Courtsheip of Rapunzel," by The Bruthers (1966), "Rats' Revenge," by The Rats (1963), "Look into Your Mirror," by The Merlynn Tree (1967), "Riot on Sunset Strip," by the Standells (1967), "Bad Girl," byt the Zakary Thaks (1966), "Stop it Baby," by the Heard (1966), "Saturday's Son" and "Baby Show the World," by The Sons of Adam (1966), "Wondering Why," by the Tremors (1966), "Another Day," by The Moguls (1966), "It's a Cryin' Shame," by The Gentlemen (1966) (also listen to rehearsal version), "Things Gettin' Better," by Kenny and the Kasuals (1966), "Cry a Little Longer," by The Grodes (1966), "She's Been Travelin' Round the World," by The Seeds of Time (1966), "I Don't Want to Try It Again" and I'm Gone Slide," by The Dagenites (1965), "Nothin" and "Just in Case You Wonder," by The Ugly Ducklings (1966), "What a Way to Die" and "Never Thought You'd Leave Me," by The Pleasure Seekers (1966), "Hangin' Out," by The Blox (1966), "She Lied," by The Rockin' Ramrods (1964), "40 Miles," by The David (1966), "Jack the Ripper," by The One Way Streets (1966), "I'm Gonna Make You Mine," by The Shadows of the Knight (1966), "It's Gonna Take Awhile," by The Morticans (1966), "Up Down Sue" and "Come on In," by The Luv'd Ones (1966),"Action Woman," by The Litter (1966), "I Love You," by the Worlocks (1966), "She Said Yes," by The Painted Ship (1967), "Wild About You," by The Missing Links (1965), "Open Up Your Mind," The Mod 4 (1966), "Spend Your Life," by First Crow to the Moon (1967), "She could Be My Baby, by The Red Squares (1966), "Look for Another Love," by The Hush Puppies (1966),etc. These are only a few.
Then also listen to the period 1968-1974 (now called "protopunk"--a terribly misleading term): "Search and Destroy," by Iggy & The Stooges (listen to all of their first three albums. Then listen the the vastly underrated band, Death: "Politicians in My Eyes," "You're a Prisoner," and "Rock n Roll Victim." All of this pre-dates the Ramones. Once again, I am not denying their punk credentials or genuine greatness (they are rightfully considered one of the supreme punk bands of all time)--but they were not the first.
I have now made the necesary change. The addition of the word "modern," makes the heading more factually precise and can no longer be considered misleading. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
- For god's sake, how many times and in how many places are you going to post this long-winded manifesto of yours? You want to rewrite the history of punk rock? Go write a book. Get it published by a reputable publisher. Then come back here and we can discuss why your take on the subject is different from the vast majority of other sources'. --IllaZilla (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
Good advice. I should write a book on the subject--there would be a lot to write about, things that the books you refer to have failed to mention. And, it would certainly be a better idea than struggling in vain in these venues to get you (IllaZilla) and others to open your minds to a broader perspective. I don't want to re-write the history of punk as you imagine. I just want to restore an important part of its original historical meaning that has been lost forever due to the post-1977 re-write that really did take place (and that's not a knock against the great 70's punk bands, such as The Ramones--any member of any of those bands would tell you the exact same things I have said). I can guarentee that my research would be a labor of love that would enhance peoples' appreciation of the early roots of punk in a far more meaningful way than anything currently offered on any of the Wiki sites. And I'm sure that it would take that and an act of congress to get you to even so much as consider my point of view. Garagepunk66 (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
- As I've suggested elsewhere, it would be greatly beneficial if you helped create and improve other articles on the garage bands of the 60s, on which you are clearly well informed, rather than repeatedly arguing your particular point of view about nomenclature at great length - an approach which achieves nothing except to bore other editors. We have considered your point of view, but discounted it because it is not the prevailing view in reliable sources - which is all that matters here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
You are right, Ghmyrtle. I will adopt that stategy in the future. Please excuse me if I have been a bit too vociferous. I will focus my future energies in the direction you recommend. Thanks. Garagepunk66 (talk) 09:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
By this sort of continuously finding precedents and 'prototype' examples you could even go as far back to say that Bill Haley's 'Rock around the Clock' is a punk song. This goes on forever and there comes a point to stop being Anal and draw a line in the sand.
yes, a line has to be draw in the sand, and it seems obvious to me that the line should be drawn at eddie cochran. bill haley wasn't punk. arguably, he wasn't punk in any way, shape, or form. he was rock n roll or rockabilly, but not punk. eddie cochran, on the other hand, WAS. "Summertime blues" and "somethin' else" are punk songs, pure and simple. (syd vicious even sang "somethin' else" in "the great rock n roll swindle" and the song fits in well with the tunes performed by the pistols and other 77 punks.) eddie cochran's songs had punk riffs, punk lyrics, punk attitude. cochran projected a punk image, and may have been the first rocker to do so. (punk image is more than putting on a leather jacket. it's a matter of attitude. elvis presley wasn't a punk no matter how many leather jackets he may have worn.) so, as far as i am concerned and as far as "rockist" research has revealed, eddie cochran was the first punk rocker. but there is much that we have yet to learn about the fifties rockabilly period, an obscure, underresearched moment in the history of rock n roll. it's possible that eddie cochran stole his characteristic riffs (and attitude, perhaps) from someone else, from some obscure, even unrecorded musician. in which case there may well have been a pre-cochran "first punk rocker." (i doubt that there was anything in the late forties that could be labeled punk, though. THAT would be pushing things a bit too far.)188.8.131.52 (talk) 17:02, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
- You have draw the line somewhere (or else risk digging back to the stone ages). The 50s are, indeed, rife with prototypical punk elements (very little is ever said about this in most accounts), but I wouldn't advocate going back that far (unless you view certain things from that period as strictly prototypical--a case could be made that a lot of the 50s was indeed prototypical). This thread is not addressing what is to be considered prototypical, however, but what constitutes the actual beginnings punk itself. So, if there is a place to draw that line in the sand, I would choose the mid-60s garage era, as it was originally defined by the early 70s rock critics mentioned above. "Rockist" research shouldn't try to trace "attitude," and "image," but facts. And, there are undeniable historical facts to support this conclusion.
- In the early 70s the term, "rockabilly" had already been used for many years to designate the genre that had long been identified and named. Whereas, until the turn of 70s, what we now call garage rock had not yet been identified as a genre or given any kind of specific name, at least not in any published form. The name that was given to it at that time (1970-1974, by some of rock's most famous critics) was "punk rock." But, let's leave the final verdict up to future scholarship--Wiki need not jump too far, too soon. Most garage enthusiasts share my perspective, so I am not just being "anal". When I started this thread, I may have been a bit too emphatic, but I hope that this discussion has helped editors achieve a broader point of view that can help us choose our wording with more precision and discernment. Keeping all things considered. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Joke in this article?
In 1979, the band played at McKenna Hall on the Claremont Men's College campus in Claremont, California. During a memorable on-air interview with KSPC disc jockey Hugh Bonair, the band members mocked and smashed their host's disco ashtrays and clocks, which the DJ had hand crafted from recycled disco albums.
- I don't really see the relevance of this in regards to the article. Remember, these talk pages are meant to discuss ways to improve the article, not to talk about the article itself. Cheers! Twyfan714 (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Deaths of original members
I saw the change made to the lead section due to the death of Tommy and, frankly, I think it was better the other way around. The fact that three original members died less than ten years after the band ceased to exist seems stronger as a headline than four dying 20 years after the fact. Besides the obvious fact that people age more and become more prone to diseases and physical problems in 20 years than in ten, there is the fact that, the way the text is now, it could be that they all died in regular intervals - i.e., the shock effect of three deaths in near consecutive years is lost. Also, when the text mentioned three deaths in less than ten years, two of them were of members of the last touring lineup, which means they were on the road with the Ramones shortly before dying. Not the case with Tommy, who was out of the band for over 35 years when he died. Do you guys agree on changing it back? Cheers. JimboB (talk) 01:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Band members (Bottom of the page box)
Lots of bands that have broken up or don't exist anymore still have the main band members in bold. Joey, Johnny, Dee Dee and Tommy should be in bold and the rest under them in regular text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 17:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Origin of "Ramone" as a surname
According to all the Ramones biographies I've ever read (Pressman, Melnick, True) and indeed even Dee Dee's Wikipedia page, the origin of Ramone as a surname was that it was suggested by Dee Dee who himself got it from Paul McCartney who used 'Paul Ramon" as a pseudonym for hotel check-ins and such. This article states that he got the idea from a 60s gangster movie. Not saying that's untrue, but it is at odds with the unanimity of all the other sources.220.127.116.11 (talk) 05:47, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- The article was vandalized several months ago which went unnoticed. It's restored to its previous version now. Piriczki (talk) 12:12, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Band members section
Should the band members section include a list of the band members, touring musicians (including one-time appearances) and every session musician, plus a timeline and a table for lineups? The same question was posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians#Band members sections but additional comments are welcome here. Piriczki (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- I hadn't read this, but I just invoked WP:BOLD and removed the overly long list of one-time appearance touring musicians, session musicians ("handclaps"? Really?) and restored the lineups table to an older, less lengthy version. Album credits are (or should be) in the album articles, not here, and these people weren't "members" of the band. I'd have removed the timeline, too, as I find those all but useless and have argued in the past that a lineups table is of far greater utility to a reader (since it communicates the lineup at any given time in fewer steps than the timeline takes to interpret, and it communicates what releases those lineups played on which the timeline doesn't), but I've encountered too much resistance to that in the past to attempt arguing it again (IMO most editors prefer timelines just because they're colorful). --IllaZilla (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2015 (UTC)