Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany
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What's the deal with Grossmann's quote?
I understand there is a socking issue, but, in two words, what's wrong with the reverted text besides being sloppily written? I searched talk archives, but I don't see it discussed. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:49, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Two words: appalling WP:SYNTH. Here is a PDF of the pages being cited. The previous incarnation of this content can be found here. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:57, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am reading it right now in JSTOR. The article makes a point IMO missing in section Rape during the occupation of Germany#Social effects. I will try to summarize it here when I am done reading. - üser:Altenmann >t 04:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'd agree that there is content from the article worthy of examination in the social effects (I'd already looked her up, and she's certainly seems to have solid credentials). The use of a comprehensive article examining complex nuances which had become entrenched in psyche/zeitgeist of that epoch in order to come up with that piece of trashy synth reading as if the majority of German women were playing the system in order to have freebie abortions is unconscionable. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:53, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hi, I may have been the first to delete that text a couple months ago. I thought the text grossly misrepresented the Grossman article, and I'm glad others seem to have agreed. I'm also happy you're trying to include content from the Grossman article since it was an excellent article. Sorry for not having taken the initiative myself earlier. Mdlawmba (talk) 05:39, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
OK, I'm done reading. I agree it is an excellent article. Unfortunately I see it rather as an essay than a research article. It has lots of points and findings and quotes, but, as my brain works, it is difficult for me to incorporate it here. At least now I know what it says and I may be a helper/double-checker if it will be cited. Now, what I found of note (and not forgotten yet:-) (bits and pieces on random order):
- It seems to be critical of the documentary of Helke Sander. She does not question the facts from the d'tary, but rather its presentation:
- She does not deny neither the fact thew Germen women were victims, nor questions the numberr
- She counter-agrues Sander's claim that she was "breaking the silence"
- she objects to the role the d'tary, by its way of presentation, plays in presenting Germany and its Volk as victims rather than perpetrators (NB: not victims of Soviets, but victims of Reich ; in fact, she notes, raped German women were victims of the collapse of the Nazi Reich rather than of Nazism per se)
- the language of d'tary reinforces the Nazi propaganda myth about barbaric Slav/Mongol hordes (e.g., an interview with a "well-bred, civilized" Russian veteran shows his back, but the one ranting about sexual exploits looks exactly as if from Nazi reels about barbaric Russian POW)
- in her opinion the d'tary pretends to put forth the idea that the fate of women is common in all wars, but in a kinda hypocritical way
- She notes the fact that the rapes were expected: both predicted by Nazi propaganda as a way to reinforce the morale of the defense and by unofficial decriminalization of non-medial and non-eugenic abortions
- the guilt of Russians seems to be reinforced by their "cultural inferiority" (russians did rape, while Americans had chocolate; as if somehow coercion of a deprived woman to sex by a chocolate is somehow morally more superior than plain rape)
- The fact that in rape reports Russians all described as Asian/Mongol is explained by the imprinted ideas of both "Arian purity" and Nazi propaganda stereotypes; in particular, Americans rapists were mostly described as Negroes and French as Moroccans
- At the same time raper reports invariably included socio-economic reasons, which Grossmann explains as reminiscences of the times of Weimar Republic
- As I mentioned, she writes the d'tary did not "break the silence". Immediately post-WWII there was plenty of memoir, and in these rape was a mundane yet another reality of suffering: destroyed houses, hunger, plunder, etc., a nonnotable part of the "consumer basket", so to say. Of course, in horrendous cases women committed suicide, but at the same time, at city water pumps women exchanged jokes about stupid Russisch and how to dupe them or about sentimental Russisch easily fascinated by children, etc. Only in modern discourse of "higher civilization" rape was singled out.
- By German women, Russians were generally classified in two polarized groups, drunk barbarians and cultivated officers (whose consensual sex was sought for as a protection from rape), while Americans were commonly described as primitive and vulgar. (I myself remember a "love story" film about a German girl and Yankee soldier; they had a date on a beach; she took off her necklace before sex, lost it, he found it first and quickly dug it into sand... etc.... single mother ... etc. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC))
- The narrative of German women in a crooked way absolved Russians of personal guilt: surely one cannot expect different behavior from these drunk primitive barbarians, and allowed women "to distance from the horror of their own experience" and to "maintain the conviction of their own superiority".
- After the postwar mess was a bit cleaned up, the talk about Russian rapes was muted. This has an evident explanation in East Germany, but the same happened in the West, despite the fact that it could have been a handy Cold War propaganda tool
- Still the rape story lived on, both in personal communication, and numerously in novel and film, as well as in gov't documents.
Well, that's all what I memorized. - üser:Altenmann >t 07:03, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Considering that Wikipedia is based on mainstream views, is there any reason Miriam Gebhardt should be considered as anything other than WP:FRINGE. Where her estimates have made some small impact on 'shock jock' journalism, her estimates have been consistently described as completely over the top and nonsensical. I'm removing the additions as WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Iryna Harpy how about mentioning her as fringe and attributing her views to her? FreeatlastChitchat (talk) 07:52, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- Any statement based on the cited source should avoid misrepresenting the tenor of that source. It states
"The total is not the result of deep research in archives across the country. ... Gebhardt makes the assumption [my emphasis] that 5 percent of the "war children" born to unmarried women in West Germany and West Berlin by the mid-1950s were the product of rape. ... Gebhardt further assumes [my emphasis] that on average, there are 100 incidents of rape for each birth. The result she arrives at is thus 190,000 victims. Such a total, though, hardly seems plausible [my emphasis] . Another estimate ... arrived at a number of 11,000 serious sexual assaults committed by November, 1945 ..."
- As per Boson's arguments, there has been criticism of her methodology for gleaning statistics. In terms of the WP:BALANCE of this article, her work is only prominent as the result of WP:RECENTISM. In my estimate, that makes it WP:UNDUE for an article that deals with content sourced from multiple historians over many years. I can't see any real function for sensationalist figures as Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, and WP:NOTEVERYTHING. It's fine for her bio, and her claims are already referenced there (although the same IP hopper who has reverted me here again, has added the figures to her bio in a WP:PROMO fashion). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:26, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Why during the occupation of Germany only?
- That is not the topic of this article. See Soviet war crimes for other locations.--Boson (talk) 11:05, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
The study of violence committed against German civilians
- I have reworded this section to better distinguish between statements in Wikipedia's voice and views expressed by others. --Boson (talk) 15:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have changed the references to link to the bibliography. This should now be clear. --Boson (talk) 11:08, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
- Ash, Lucy. "The rape of Berlin." BBC. 1 May 2015.
- Ash, Lucy. "The truth behind The Rape of Berlin." The Daily Telegraph. May 2, 2015.
- Beyer, Susanne. "Harrowing Memoir: German Woman Writes Ground-Breaking Account of WW2 Rape." Der Spiegel. February 26, 2010. Translated into English by Christopher Sultan.