Talk:Raymond du Puy

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"gueulles"[edit]

"…and in 1130 Pope Innocent II gave the order their coat of arms, a silver cross (today known as the Maltese cross) in a field of blue (gueulles)."

There's something a bit wrong here. Gueulles in French heraldry surely means red, not blue, and the coat of arms shown at the article Sovereign Military Order of Malta does indeed show "gules a cross argent" (ie a red field with a silver cross). Is this mistake in the source? Kelisi (talk) 15:42, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

This also piqued my curiosity. The "quote" in question was added back in 2007 by an anonymous account [1] It is attributed to "Le Grand Dictionnaire Historique by Louis Moreri written in 1759". I am afraid it is unusable, and I have not been able to reconstruct where the "quote" originated. Louis Moréri did not "write" anything "in 1759", because he died in 1680. His Dictionnaire of 1674 has a complicated history of expansions and translations,

"Moréri's one-volume edition of 1674 was revised by others after his death, each time it was published. It was translated into English, German, Italian, Dutch and Spanish. A total of at least 20 different editions were published between 1674 (one volume) and 1759 (10 volumes)."

So I am afraid unless we can pinpoint edition, volume and page exactly, this quote has to be considered unsubstantiated.

The 1759 edition in ten volumes is, of course, in French. It is online here, and I have not been able to even find an entry on Raymond (there is an entry on Gerard, which names Raimond du Puy), but Raymond does not appear to have a separate entry. It seems clear that this English paragraph is not taken from the 1759 French edition.

It is well possible that the gueulles citations originates wherever this is taken from, but it strikes me as unwise, in any case, to use even a verified 18th-century encyclopedia as a standalone secondary reference in 2016. --dab (𒁳) 10:14, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the text as unsourced. I am posting it here for reference:


Raymond du Puy, the first grand master of the order of St. John of Jerusalem, (who later became known as the Knights of Malta) succeeded Gerard as rector in 1118. He came from the province of Dauphiné and was of the illustrious house of du Puy... Raymond was elected by the brothers of the order, following the disposition of the bull of Pope Paschal II, given in 1113, and was from then on called Master of the Hospital of the City of Jerusalem to mark his authority. Gerard had only used the name of Governor and Rector of the Hospital. Since there were many gentlemen and men of arms among the ranks of the Order, he established a militia for the defense of religion against enemies of the Holy Land, while others were assigned to care for the poor and the sick at the hospital. To better succeed in his pious designs, he held the first general assembly and divided the order into three ranks: knights, men at arms, and chaplains. He also instituted a new constitution to improve the rules that Gerard established. They were approved in 1123 by Pope Callixtus II and in 1130 Pope Innocent II gave the order their coat of arms, a silver cross (today known as the Maltese cross) in a field of blue (gueulles). Raymond armed his troops and offered them to Baldwin II of Jerusalem, to join him and his army in the fight against infidels. From that time on, there was never a battle that this order did not participate in. In the year 1153, the king of Jerusalem was ready to lift the siege of Ashkelon; however, Grand Master du Puy received permission to extend the siege and camp his army in front of the city. The city surrendered within a few days. Because of this conquest he acquired great glory and received the esteem of the pope, Pope Anastasius IV, who granted many privileges to the order. Raymond thereafter built a magnificent palace which caused much jealousy among the prelates of Jerusalem and the holy land. But the order was supported by the supreme pontiff in his exemptions and in the privileges granted to them. Raymond du Puy died in 1160 and his successor was Auger de Balben. He was the first to assume, and the first to whom was given, the title of Grand Master of the Order. He never used it except after Roger II of Sicily used the title in the letters he wrote to Raymond


--dab (𒁳) 09:47, 16 June 2016 (UTC)