Talk:Red Swan (song)

Infoboxes

This article really does not need three different infoboxes, because they merely repeat information about slight variations of the song. The different cover illustrations can be used in the main text if desired. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 14:26, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Naturally. Surely you've noticed its one new editor repeatedly adding them while claiming to be "fixing" the article. They don't want to discuss it, so just revert it. Xfansd (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

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User:doomsdayer520 and User:Xfansd I understand why you seem to revert it, Please pay attention here my edit kept almost everything the same as yours but just added album art for which infobox was necessary,

Secondly, Your edit had –

• Wrong length date in 1st infobox
• No writer(s) information in tracklisting which is necessary (does not matter if it's mentioned above).
• Please see how other Singles are addressed on the page. HimuTheEditor (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that you refuse to accept that the tracklist you are adding does not match the actual CD single. Because you're not a native English speaker, I don't know if you simply don't understand or if you actually believe that the physical CD doesn't exist. But at least you're actually discussing it now. Let me ask this, do you see how on the single's official website it has two different versions? One featuring a swan on the cover and the other Attack on Titan characters. Right next to those pictures are the tracklists for each version and they are different from the edits you are making. Do you see how they are different from what you added? Xfansd (talk) 17:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Xfansd, First of all, my apologies for not talking here before to be truthful I did not knew that you posted here, I never got a notification or something. Now, yes exactly. I did checked with the official website. It does says so but here's a twist my friend if you go to buy it, then you have to select any entries like applemusic/spotify and there you can see the tracklist matches (no matter which one you choose, all of them matches with mine). Maybe we could come to an understanding? or this edit war will never end. Tell your opinions, Thank you! HimuTheEditor (talk) 19:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

That is only if you stream it or buy digitally. If you click "Add to Cart" to buy the physical CD or go to Amazon they do not match yours. Buying digitally from websites like iTunes should not take precedence over physical CDs. I went and added all three versions of the tracklist as a proposed compromise, even though I believe it to be redundant. The goal is to not repeat the same information over and over. I removed the repeated songwriter and "artist" info from each one because you are wrong when you said "writer(s) information in tracklisting is necessary". That is exactly why the "| all_writing =" parameter at Template:Track listing exists. I also removed the additional infoboxes you added because, as Doomsdayer520 pointed out above, they are not helpful and just repeat info. Xfansd (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Xfansd I get it, your point. but there's no other good and correct way to keep the album arts, and besides that, the website reference isn't clear, it's a way to demonstrate the songs, done mostly by each artist where the CD matches with the digital one, there's no definite way to confirm. Well, as our goal here as editors is to spread knowledge, and make readers' understand the topic and get them what they need to read. Maybe you could for that see how the tracklist I proposed from many sources is correct? It does not repeats any track information, 2 different singles. 1 containing 2 tracks and another one containing 1 track. Well, what do we do now? and as a matter of fact, I just checked with Amazon's official website and the tracklisting I provided indeed has Physical CD formats see for yourself [website] and for that digital thing, There are various albums/singles which do not exist in Physical CDs and yet have their way on Wikipedia as usual. Do we seem to have came to an understanding? HimuTheEditor (talk) 20:21, 3 October 2021 (UTC) Also, please see [[1]] where it clearly mentions the 2 versions 4:23 length and 1:30 length. Basically, Yoshiki created Red Swan song feat. HYDE. (4:23 Length) He released it but it did not topped charts, The song was edited to 1:30 length and used as AoT season 3 Opening. So basically we have Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - First released - 4:23 length Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - TV Edit - 1:30

Red Swan re-released again with an extra instrumental track and new cover. Red Swan (feat. HYDE) Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - Instrumental

and after my edit the page represents them all including the original one which was already there. No matter what we do but the thing is it's artist wish how he releases the song and how they are published. We here are to write that information and convey it to the readers in the best way possible. Do you agree with my point of view now? and as for editing this, it's already mentioned that Poorly sourced/not sourced stuff will be challenged and removed. So here my references seems to be a better fit and reliable as you can see for yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HimuTheEditor (talk • contribs) 20:31, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The amazon product you linked is the physical "Attack on Titan Version". Please keep your comments neat, I don't understand the rest of your comment. What do you mean by "the website reference isn't clear" and "no definite way to confirm"? Everything has a reference and nothing is missing from your edit. The songwriter and artist are the same for every version of the song, we don't have to list them 6 times. The article explains that the television edit of the song was published digitally. Please just say specifically what information you think is missing. Xfansd (talk) 20:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

I just checked the page and it's almost correct, there are few changes I'd like to propose which are correct There are 3 tracklstings you gave, Change name of 1st heading to Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - Standard version Changed name of 2nd heading to Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - Single

The reason for 2nd heading as it is Attack on Titan version and instead of adding AoT name in their heading they just published it as a single with the cover. Do you agree with my changes? HimuTheEditor (talk) 05:11, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

"HYDE" should be Hyde. English Wikipedia uses proper capitalization, it doesn't matter if that is how he wants his name written. Changing the 2nd heading to "Single" doesn't make sense because the first two tracklistings are both singles. Japanese artists typically do "standard" and "limited" editions of their single with the limited having more songs, but in this case they use "Yoshiki feat. Hyde Edition" and "Attack on Titan Edition" instead. You can see that on the English version of the single's website. Xfansd (talk) 21:36, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Xfansd Alright, Guess it's solved then. You can edit the titles as you suit. I utterly apologize for my immature behavior in the past, guess we learn something each day. I'll remove those irksome messages I posted on my talkpage or elsewhere. I may add the TV Edit cover later on under the alternative cover. Thank you, Stay safe and have a good day! :) HimuTheEditor (talk) 07:32, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Discussion for new tracklisting

User:Xfansd After researching thoroughly and deeply I am proposing this final edit. 1). As you can see the paragraph you wrote "Background and release" on the article, it says the song was released on CD and Digitally in 2 different versions and hence they are to be taken into account while writing about tracklisting. Those 2 versions released digitally are – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) and Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - TV Edit. and hence, the justification for my track listing.

2). Now, about the capitalization of the artist HYDE. For that matter, you may refer to Some Nights and Blood Harmony, See how either it be an album or an artist, they are mostly written in the way they are stylized. You can also check the description of the Official Lyric Video of the song and see how in credits how HYDE is stylized.

Please note – I utterly respect your contributions towards the page, but you see no matter how you dig in and Google it, there's nothing you can find on Attack on Titan versions or anything like that. Now as you say may say, a reference to the Official artist's website, You can see if you buy it on CD it shows only 2 versions which I mentioned above.

As for the cover art, Please see, Bad Habits When the song was initially released, it had its own album art but as soon as it was announced that it is to be appeared on the album, the cover art changed everywhere, On applemusic, wikipedia, CD, Artist's site et cetera. Hence, it is the case for this song too. and we're facing this conflict in the first place as we have not created 2 pages differently one for the Single and one for the Single album as done everywhere. But it would not make sense as even though it was released on CD/Digitally as Single album the tracklist is almost the same as there are only 2 songs.

Above, by Single I mean a track released individually and by Single album, released on album but called Single as their total length is less than 10 minutes.

I can assure you the tracklisting as of now, is Digitally as well as CD published. So the tracklisting is valid.

Also, Yoshiki created this song with HYDE. They introduced the song to the public via a music consert. When it was the time to publish the song digitally and on CD, The below tracklisting took affect.

I've now completed the page by appropriate track listing.

Do you agree? or is there something that you'd like to add that I missed? As you see Wikipedia says Poorly sourced material may be challenged or removed, the only reference you provide for your tracklisting is the website which is not clear. Please provide any other references if you have for your edit.

--Here are the references that support the current tracklisting,
Discogs:

• [2] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE)
• [3] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) [TV Edit]

Allmusic:

• [4] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE)

Deezer:

• [5] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) See the album art and album information in the playlist.

Spotify:

• [6] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE)
• [7] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - TV Edit

YouTube Music:

• [8] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE)
• [9] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - TV Edit

Apple Music:

• [10] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE)
• [11] – Red Swan (feat. HYDE) - TV Edit

Please note, if the track is only digitally published it would not have any Copyright information on Discogs/Spotify stated with circled C and would not have circled P which is for Phonogram symbol and if that's not enough you can see discogs clearly stating that they are available as CD. I have provided all the proof for the track listing I provided is correct, both digitally and CD published. The tracklisting you provide is like a rough diagram and hence not correct.

Thank you, Yours sincerely HimuTheEditor (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

For capitalization, see MOS:ALLCAPS. That's the end of that discussion. As I said before, everything in my version of the article is sourced/has references. All the "references" you linked above are websites selling or streaming music digitally, so yes, they use the digital version. You said "there's nothing you can find on Attack on Titan versions or anything like that." You are wrong: Discogs - standard edition, Discogs - says "Attack on Titan CD Edition", Barks - both "Yoshiki feat. Hyde Edition" and "Attack on Titan Edition", geki-rock - both "Yoshiki feat. Hyde Edition" and "Attack on Titan Edition".

"Now as you say may say, a reference to the Official artist's website, You can see if you buy it on CD it shows only 2 versions which I mentioned above" I don't understand this. You acknowledged above that the official website sells the two physical CD versions under the section titled "INFORMATION". Now you're pretending it doesn't?

Unfortunately Template:Infobox_album#cover doesn't say anything about which album cover to use aside from "the original version." Do you agree with me that the "TV Edit" released on July 23, 2018 should not be considered "the original" because it is not the full song? So then we have to decide between the other two. As I explained above, Japanese artists typically do "standard" and more expensive "limited" editions of singles where the limited edition has more songs. For Red Swan the artist or record label decided to do something unusual/special, and used "Yoshiki feat. Hyde Edition" and "Attack on Titan Edition" as the titles for the different versions. I believe the infobox should use the standard edition that most people buy and not the more expensive limited edition, which we can assume is bought by the more hardcore fans. Do you understand this logic? Xfansd (talk) 21:00, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• User:Xfansd I get it, but you are not trying to even understand.

The track listing I provided is Official, published DIGITALLY and CD both. So say my track listing is tracklisting A and yours is B Both are official, it's not like if you dont wanna write A you can just merge them or something.

You say, Japanese singers propose Standard and Limited Editions, it's not exclusive to them, all singers do it. See ÷ by Ed Sheeran, See how the most latest and appropriate track listing takes place just beside the infobox and other French and deluxe limited editions are written at the bottom.

What you're saying is like Attack on Titan Essentials too should be here from Apple Music. The case's similar to yours.

I'm currently updating the page, Before editing please speak here what you think is wrong. and for that Discogs reference you provided it says Instrumental is of 4:23 length when its 4:20 and yours write 4:20 here, Discogs can be edited. and for the CAPS of HYDE, Stylization is a thing, it exists in this world just in case you have never heard of it. If you won't mention the singers with the name they want with then what is the point for them telling public also known as or stylized as. All Wikipedia pages respect the stylization process.

I was also missing something before I wasn't adding the track listing you were providing, so here it is now. The new tracklisting that contains all the tracklistings. HimuTheEditor (talk) 09:17, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The first tracklisting and the third tracklisting need to be combined because they are completely identical (they only have different cover art), for a total of three tracklistings, like I already had in my version. All that had to be done was change the headline to "Yoshiki feat. Hyde and digital editions".

Wikipedia does not respect special stylizations. I literally just pointed that out to you by linking MOS:ALLCAPS, which is an official Wikipedia Guideline and says "Avoid writing with all caps (all capital letters), including small caps (all caps at a reduced size), when they have only a stylistic function." That is why when you go to Hyde's own article it uses correct capitalization. So that will be changed. Xfansd (talk) 23:45, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Xfansd, I do understand your concern regarding Hyde's stylization.

and that is why when he is mentioned in the paragraphs we mention him using Hyde and for infoboxes and credits we mention him using HYDE. MOS:ALLCAPS, which is an official Wikipedia Guideline and says "Avoid writing with all caps (all capital letters), including small caps (all caps at a reduced size), when they have only a stylistic function." read the last line.

and for the edition thingy that you say they must be merged, they should not. The point here is to educate readers on track listing. Merging them would just make readers think that there are only 3 editions ever released and if we merge them we would have to explain it before track listing that there are 2 editions released but with different covers. So I suggest let them be and instead we shall add back the alternative cover in the infobox. Thank you! HimuTheEditor (talk) 07:21, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Uh, yeah, "only a stylistic function" describes what you are doing exactly because there is no grammatical reason requiring Hyde to be capitalized. "for infoboxes and credits we mention him using HYDE", no. That guideline lists examples of exceptions to the rule, and that is not one of them.

"Merging them would just make readers think that there are only 3 editions," no it would not. Most people who use English Wikipedia understand the English language. If the headline reads "Yoshiki feat. Hyde and digital editions", English speakers know that the use of the word "and" and the addition of an "s" to the end of the word "edition", tells people this one tracklist covers two different editions. You might not understand that, but most people reading the article do. Xfansd (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Xfansd

haha, can't say if (You might not understand that, but most people reading the article do.) that's a fact or an insult. But anyway I get your point. I already made the required edits to the page before so go on and give the page a final edit and refine it. It was fun arguing with you though. Have a good day & stay safe!

P.S.: Thank you for spending your precious time arguing with me. Thank you! HimuTheEditor (talk) 05:15, 10 October 2021 (UTC)