Talk:Republic of Macedonia

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Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2017[edit] (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
No per WP:MOSMAC and bad spelling in the request. There already is a page Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, but it's a redirect (as it should be) back to this page. --Taivo (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

First sentence[edit]

Is there a reason for the article to begin "Macedonia, officially the Republic of Macedonia..."? When an article title is the same as the subject's full name, it normally begins with that name. For example, we don't have "Harry Truman, officially Harry S. Truman..." in the Harry S. Truman article; we have "Harry S. Truman [years] was an American statesman...", and likewise it seems to me that this article should be something like "The Republic of Macedonia is a country...". Am I missing something? The hatnote should be sufficient to distinguish it from the Greek region, the general area of the south Balkans, and other issues that have prompted the naming dispute. Nyttend (talk) 20:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Good point. The current wording is a relic of the days when the fight was over "Macedonia" versus "FYROM" and "Republic of Macedonia" became the compromise article title after WP:ARBMAC2. --Taivo (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually, the present format seems to be in line with a lot of other European country articles that have both a plain name and an official constitutional title involving "Republic of" or the like (cf. Germany, Poland, Croatia, Greece and others). That said, something needs to be reduced about the number of glosses/translations/transcriptions; there are now no fewer than ten name variants listed before the definition sentence even starts. Fut.Perf. 09:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
It seems there is a good momentum between the current governments in both countries for resolving the name dispute within 2018; needless to say, in the event of a solution, the abbreviation FYROM should be removed alltogether from the lead and have it mentioned only in the history section or where appropriate. --SILENTRESIDENT 17:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not objective[edit]

The name dispute is not a matter of self-identification but a matter of hetero-identification. There is no connection between Slavic speaking countries and Macedonia. Ancient Macedonians Spoke Greek. Modern Macedonians Speak Greek. “The Macedonia naming dispute is a political dispute regarding the use of the name Macedonia between the southeastern European countries of Greece and the Republic of Macedonia”. When you call FYROM “Macedonia”, you have chosen FYROM’s side. D.M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:23, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This has been settled over at WP:MOSMAC. PepperBeast (talk) 08:49, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Albanian Language[edit]

For an information, this Law is not signed by President and it is not effective yet, so as relevant source is Official Newsletter of the country, and not news. As every Wikipedian language version, English one have to wait for this. Also, it is not so precise that this means Albanian is second official language. --Ehrlich91 (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. The law has not been signed yet and it does not make the Albanian a second official language, it extends its usage in the institutions. For the Albanian to become second official language the Constitution must be changed. As of today, I'd like to rely on the Constitution when adding citations, not some websites with sensationalist headlines. Macedonicus (talk) 19:24, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
I agree, especially as both Albanian and Macedonian media have been reporting it in sensationalist ways one way or the other. Until the final law is in place (if it even gets there), only then can this issue been worked out more clearly for wiki pages on Macedonia etc. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Even it the law is signed, that does not make Albanian official as Macedonian. The law is about all minority languages and it just improves the usage of the languages. The constitution is not changed, hence the Macedonian is sole official language. Best--MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:02, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Let's wait about the final juridical solution of that issue. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 10:07, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
ok. Even if not made as an official language throughout the state, but it relates to greater institutional usage of Albanian, a few additions on that will be needed as updates to some articles on Macedonia and its Albanians after whatever happens in the courts etc. Best.Resnjari (talk) 10:22, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Of course, the info about all languages and their improvement regarding the state affairs should be updated. However, the only official language is MK.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The information about the Albanian language should be updated as soon as it is promulgated in the Public Enterprise Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia. It will be effective several days after (usually a week). From what I see in the draft of the law it will be official language throughout the state, not just regionally. It will not have absolutely the same status as the Macedonian language, but it will be definitely the 2nd official language of the state. Note that "Official languages" parameter of the template is not only for the languages recognized in the constitution, but for the ones recognized in legislation as well. It will be good if the section "Languages" is extended, explaining the agreement from 2001, the laws from 2008, 2011 and the current one including the differences between Macedonian and Albanian regarding it's coverage. Maybe a table with the data will illustrate that best. --StanProg (talk) 15:33, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
The President Ivanov has vetoed the law. Jingiby (talk) 04:38, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Albanian editors may not like what i say, but as President Ivanov vetoed the law and following parliamentary procedure it will have to go back for a vote, along with there being a challenge to the supreme court, its best to hold off on any big changes in Wikipedia. The supreme court may be a big indicator of the future of the language law in what form it finally takes as parliament will need to make sure it aligns with its decision and the constitution. This matter still has some way to go before it resolved. Until that time as editors we should just watch the situation until there is certainty from all sides, so as to avoid any headaches here with editing. Best.Resnjari (talk) 04:19, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

The proposed law will make Albanian an official language throughout the country. Parliament will soon vote on the law again. If parliament passes the law for the second time the President will be forced to sign the bill. At this point, the official languages section must be updated to include the language. Many biased users may try to remove the language from the official languages so please watch for this.Vepton (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

@Vepton, until its enacted and not subject to further challenges etc, we wait and keep track of proceedings via the media. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:40, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2018[edit]

Andrew1456 (talk) 18:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Please Do Correct the title and everything wrongly mentioned and not with the official name which is: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, F.Y.R.O.M. as you are also writing inside.

Not done Per WP:MOSMAC NeilN talk to me 18:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 January 2018[edit]

Change from Theomech (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NeilN talk to me 00:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2018[edit]

Official name of the country in the United nations is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia also known with the abbreviation FYRoM

Please change Republic of Macedonia to Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, officially F.Y.R.o M

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (/ˌmæsɪˈdoʊniə/ (About this sound listen) MAS-ih-DOH-nee-ə; Macedonian: Македонија, tr. Makedonija, IPA: [makɛˈdɔnija]), officially F.Y.R.o M. Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Macedonian: About this sound Република Македонија (help·info), tr. Republika Makedonija), is a country in the Balkan peninsula in Southeast Europe. It is one of the successor states of the former Yugoslavia, from which it declared independence in 1991. It became a member of the United Nations in 1993, but, as a result of an ongoing dispute with Greece over the use of the name "Macedonia", was admitted under the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia[10][11] (sometimes abbreviated as FYROM and FYR Macedonia), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union,[12] the Council of Europe,[13] and NATO.[14]

Extended content

The issue of the name of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is not just a dispute over historical facts or symbols. It concerns the conduct of a UN member state, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which contravenes the fundamental principles of international law and order; specifically, respect for good neighbourly relations, sovereignty and territorial integrity.

The name issue is thus a problem with regional and international dimensions, consisting in the promotion of irredentist and territorial ambitions on the part of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, mainly through the counterfeiting of history and usurpation of Greece’s national, historical and cultural heritage.

The name issue arose in 1991, when the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia and declared its independence under the name “Republic of Macedonia”.

Historically, the term “Macedonia”, which is a Greek word, refers to the Kingdom and culture of the ancient Macedonians, who belong to the Hellenic nation and are unquestionably part of Greek historical and cultural heritage.

Geographically, the term “Macedonia” refers to a wider region extending into the current territory of various Balkan countries, with the largest part of the region being in Greece and smaller sections in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania. The core of what was ancient Macedonia lies within contemporary Greek borders, comprises the northern portion of the Greek state, and is called Macedonia. Some 2.5 million Greeks reside in this region today and they and their forebears have considered and called themselves Macedonians through the centuries.

The roots of the name issue go back to the mid-1940s, when, in the aftermath of the Second World War, Commander in Chief Tito separated from Serbia the region that had been known until that time as Vardar Banovina (today’s Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), giving it the status of a federal unit of the new Socialist Federal Republic of Macedonia, renaming it, initially, the “People’s Republic of Macedonia”, and, later, the “Socialist Republic of Macedonia”. At the same time, he started to cultivate the idea of a separate and discrete “Macedonian nation”.

Tito of course had many reasons for making these moves, the main one being to lay the foundations for future Yugoslavian territorial claims in the wider region of Macedonia and secure an opening on the Aegean. Tito’s intentions in the wider Macedonian region had been confirmed as early as 1944, when he declared publicly that his goal was to reunify “all the sections of Macedonia that were broken up in 1912 and 1913 by the Balkan imperialists.”

A December 1944 State Department dispatch to the U.S. authorities, signed by the US Secretary of State at the time, Stettinius, noted, among other things, that “This [US] Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonian "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece.”

Against this historical background, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia declared its independence in 1991, basing its existence as an independent state on the artificial and spurious notion of the “Macedonian nation”, which was cultivated systematically through the falsification of history and the exploitation of ancient Macedonia purely for reasons of political expediency.

Greece reacted strongly to the theft of its historical and cultural heritage and the treacherous territorial and irredentist intentions of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and the issue came before the UN Security Council, which, in two resolutions [817(1993) and 845(1993)] recommended that a settlement be found quickly, for the sake of peaceful relations and good neighbourliness in the region.

In 1993, following a recommendation from the Security Council, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was accepted, by decision of the General Assembly, into the United Nations under this provisional name, until such time as an agreed solution is reached.

In 1995, Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia concluded an Interim Accord, which imposed a binding “code of conduct”.

Based on the Interim Accord, the two sides began negotiations under the auspices of the UN. These negotiations have continued to this day.

In the time that has elapsed since the signing of the Interim Accord, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has systematically violated the letter and spirit of the Accord, as well as the obligations deriving from it:

• by promoting territorial designs against Greece through the portrayal on maps, in school books, in history books, etc., of Greek territory as being within the territory of a “greater” Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, in violation of articles 2, 3, 4 and 7.1;

• by supporting irredentist claims and inciting nationalistic feeling within Greece, in violation of article 6.2;

• by using the name “Republic of Macedonia” in international organizations – including the United Nations – that it has joined under the condition that it use the provisional name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia”, in violation of the relevant commitments provided for in article 11.1 (even from the podium of the 62nd UN General Assembly, the then-president of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Branko Crvenkovski, stated that “the name of my country is and shall remain the Republic of Macedonia”);

Andrew1456 (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

No, per WP:MOSMAC. --Taivo (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
@Andrew1456: Wikipedia is not ruled by the United Nations, it is ruled by the WP:consensus of its editors, based on the preponderance of WP:reliable sources. And, the consensus says it is Republic of Macedonia. Vanjagenije (talk) 19:52, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2018[edit]

Marcuspenney (talk) 08:04, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)