Talk:Resource-based economy

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Resource Based Economy[edit]

The term and meaning of a Resource Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco. It is a holistic socio-economic system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resource; our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.87.211 (talk) 04:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC) '

Hey, I suggest we put a mention about Fresco´s RBE in the text because now this article is very misleading. Mmaybe the elite is a bit afraid if this Fresco´s ideology will spread? I suggest we put a mention as above to the article and links to Venus Project. In the end, it is information that matters. What do you think? 85.76.87.31 (talk) 14:42, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no 'elite'. That is conspiracy theory. Fresco's idea is not mentioned in the article because he did not coin the term 'resource based economy' and he is not notable in regard to the term either. This article is about resource based economies in the mainstream meaning of the term. Earl King Jr. (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The two terms mentioned should be separated, as it is misleading. S1id3r0 (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Article[edit]

Enano best you slow down. You are making a lot of mistakes calling names like vandal in your edit summary of another editor and edit warring against what ever small consensus there is. If you have an issue you believe then ask for a Request for comment or bring it to one of the boards for them to deal with. Your current approach is tendentious and its a big mistake to go to war over something so insignificant as a redirect. Wikipedia should never be used for name calling or anger and accusation in the way you have done WP:NOTBATTLE. Please take a breath and change your approach, now. Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:53, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

There doesn´t seem to be an argument here, all he Enano Humano is asking is for you to put up real sources and if you have any sources, please put them up. Otherwise remove the self promotion, and relax with the attitude because you are looking like a fanatic only stirring up conflict to defend an unvalid source. jjmr247 5 January 2014 (UTC)
jjmr247, did Enano Humano ask you to edit here, or are you the same person? If so, that would be a Bad Thing. bobrayner (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks jjmr247. If you can see in this article, you can find people who are trying to ingnore the real biography about RBE concept. So, they hope the people believe in the words of Fresco without any sources, investigation or any real evidence and like say the USA paten office "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" for services incorrectly set forth as "Association services, namely, promoting the interests of alternative social sustainability and design." However, it appears that the proposed mark "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" is a pre-existing phrase in the socio-economic literature discussing economic models, a pre-existing phrase with a fairly widely known meaning." see more: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs) 04:17, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Funny how your English suddenly improved and now you sound just like the other guy almost, Enano and Jjmr247 oddly you sound like the same person now, could it be that you are a sock puppet, meat puppet? I guess. Also, stop posting that ridiculous Internet Archive thing. Apparently that is part of your internet feud you two are having with Fresco. Yes, it appears you have some nasty war of words with your group, the Promethean's your group wrote some over the top uncitable and non notable unauthorized rant, placed it on Internet Archive and now are trying to quote from it, not good, not good at all. Cease posting this ridiculous link [1] it is not usable here in any form. It is apparent that the two of you are in some group that is highly anti Fresco but this is the wrong place to bring your fight. Go make a blog or something but just stop editing here before some Admin accidentally views your work and gives you and the meat or sock puppet the boot. I am trying to explain this stuff to you now. Earl King Jr. (talk) 08:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Earl We are NOT the same person. Once again I will ask you to stop the Auto-Promotion. I think Enano has been clear with you of why you can not Redirect to the Venus Project page. For one The Venus Project does Not have neither a model nor an Economic Theory on their part, it is not a credible source since it has not sources other than Themselves claiming to have coined the Term, which is absolutely FALSE. Second as per the link Enano gives is to the US Patent office Telling the Venus Project that they can NOT do such thing. At the same time other sources Do show real and serious work about the topic. Again all this auto promotion has no work to back it up, only Plagiarism on the Venus Project's side otherwise show some real sources behind Fresco's work. jjmr247 (talk) 9 January 2014 (UTC)
It's clear that those accounts are operated by the same person, and 3rr will probably be enforced on that basis. Tom Harrison Talk 22:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Hey Tom, please don´t support Earl, you must be impartial and you must moderate this article, please check the sources posted by me, Earl don´t have any real argument he only want do auto-promotion to venus project and his ideas like a real reference (he is a fanatic of venus project), but if you check the venus project website they only expose a idea but no a economic theory. Please take the sources and make a comparative study, like me in the past! By the way I don´t need use others profiles, and if you are a real admin of wikipedia I guess you can see the IP adresses, e-mails and others stuffs! Enano Humano, 9 January 2014
Again the sources:
- Response from Patent office of USA to venus project over RBE: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP (RBE can´t have owner)
- Legal process about rejection RBE patent: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html ( venus project can´t prove the authority over RBE)
- Article. Debunked the venus project: http://theoverthinker.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/8.-Spirit-Of-The-Times-2012_issue8_web.pdf (venus project get money from activists to make a movie but they never made this movie and the money is lost)
- Real Bibliography from academic books:
* Barry C.Field (2000), Natural Resource Economics, McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-231677-2.
* Thomas H. Tietenberg (1988), Environmental and Natural Resource Economics, Scott-Foresman. ISBN 0-673-18945-7.
* Philip A. Neher (1990), Natural Resource Economics: Conservation and Exploitation, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-31174-8.
* Steven C. Hackett (2001), Environmental and Natural Resources Economics: Theory, Policy, and the Sustainable Society, M.E. Sharpe. ISBN 0-7656-0682-8.
* Erhun Kula (1992), Economics of Natural Resources and the Environment, Springer. ISBN 0-412-36330-5.
* Juan C. Suris Regueiro, Manuel M. Varela Lafuente (1995), Introducción a la economía de los recursos naturales, Civitas. ISBN 84-470-0613-1.
* Pere Riera (2005), Manual de economía ambiental y de los recursos naturales, Thomson. ISBN 84-9732-369-6.
* Carlos Romero(1994), Economía de los recursos ambientales y naturales, Alianza Editorial. ISBN 84-206-6811-7.
* Alan Randall, Ricardo Calvet Perez (1985), Economía de los recursos naturales y política ambiental, Limusa. ISBN 968-18-1727-3.
* Roxana Barrantes (1997), Hacia un nuevo dorado: Economía de los recursos naturales, Consorcio de Investigación Económica. ISBN 9972-670-00-7.
-
Tom Review all "debate" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resource-based_economy#Auto_promotion_to_TVP_in_this_article
PD: Like say the USA paten office: "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" for services incorrectly set forth as "Association services, namely, promoting the interests of alternative social sustainability and design." However, it appears that the proposed mark "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" is a pre-existing phrase in the socio-economic literature discussing economic models, a pre-existing phrase with a fairly widely known meaning." see more: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP PLEASE Don`t ignore this source Tom, Earl and everybody!
If you need to corroborate this source please check with the serial number onto the last doc shared in this web site: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html
Enano Humano, 9 January 2014 —Preceding undated comment added 00:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I already explained to you that you could bring your internet feud elsewhere. You are repeating the same nonsense information which has no bearing on anything, like that Internet Archive thing you keep posting here, which is not a source and barely coherent, no author, just something thrown up there. I asked you to stop posting that several times. Its pointless. Also calling another editor a fanatic is too much. For what its worth I told you already that its just a redirect. The auto promotion,? That is kind of ridiculous and you have repeated that now about twenty times. Could you stop? Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Earl you are explain nothing, you only try to ignore the relevent info about Resource Based Economy concept because you belive in venus project, like a church and of course you acting like a fanatic, Why don´t talk about the rejection patent RBE concept to venus project? Why do you use this argument "Are you a disgruntled ex Venus Project member? Why the attitude?" ? Why do you fear Earl?
Earl please don't fool us with a redirect, in this redirect you only have auto-promotion to venus project and you know that, maybe because you must be a active member of the venus project, and maybe because you create this profile in wikipedia to promote the venus project. Everybody can check the history of this article, since march 2012 Earl put his hands on this to manipulate the info: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Resource-based_economy&offset=&limit=500&action=history SO PLEASE STOP YOU EARL! Enano Humano, 10 January 2014 —Preceding undated comment added 16:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I could care less about Venus Project or Fresco. Its just an article I watch because it is subject to a lot of problems. Apparently you are not going to listen to anyone and like a broken record, want to keep on edit warring with your meat or sock puppet, over nothing and calling people names. So be it. I told you originally that we who edit the article all know that the trademark or patent of the phrase R.B.E. that he wanted to do is a nonstarter because it was rejected, so that is also a non issue. The article on Venus Project mentions that even. Your broken record of auto promotion to Venus Project is annoying. Its a redirect, but now I think you seem unable to understand this. Perhaps you are just not understanding how an encyclopedia works and maybe can not understand that your editing style and approach is not working. Tendentious edit warring and turning the talk page into a ridiculous blog against your apparent enemy Fresco is wasting every ones time. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I restored the hatnote per Wikipedia:Hatnote. I have no particular opinion on the Venus Project, Fresco or who patented this or that. I simply point out that there is another article that mentions another meaning of RBE, and as a service to our readers we should provide a link to make it easier for them to find what they are looking for, if it's not in this article. Sjö (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Sjö the reference is auto-promotion to venus project and a fake reference, because if you follow the links and read the info containded in the website of the venus project they only are trying to say this: "The term and meaning of a Resource Based Economy was originated by Jacque Fresco.". Because they are trying to be the main source, but if you review the links shared, this is totally false. Please review the response of the Patent Office of USA: "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" for services incorrectly set forth as "Association services, namely, promoting the interests of alternative social sustainability and design." However, it appears that the proposed mark "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" is a pre-existing phrase in the socio-economic literature discussing economic models, a pre-existing phrase with a fairly widely known meaning." see more: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP PLEASE Don`t ignore this source Sjö, Tom and everybody! Remember the auto-promotion is forbiden. (Enano Humano) —Preceding undated comment added 21:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)


And let me add that whether the Venus project has a viable theory has absolutely nothing to do with hatnotes. Sjö (talk) 21:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

You are ignoring complety the sources about the manipulation from venus project and his fans in this article ( they don´t have a economic model o theory, please visit the website of venus project and read ), you can block me if you wish, I don't care if the proposition from venus project is ok or not, I am scared because they are trying to fool us, trying to be the principal source about RBE! Wikipedia must be impartial . . . you are making a mistake! :/
See more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resource-based_economy#Auto_promotion_to_TVP_in_this_article
Please check, Again the sources:
- Response from Patent Office of USA to venus project over RBE: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP (RBE can´t have owner)
- Legal process about rejection RBE patent: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html ( venus project can´t prove the authority over RBE)
- Article. Debunked the venus project: http://theoverthinker.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/8.-Spirit-Of-The-Times-2012_issue8_web.pdf (venus project get money from activists to make a movie but they never made this movie and the money is lost)
- Real Bibliography from academic books:
* Barry C.Field (2000), Natural Resource Economics, McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-231677-2.
* Thomas H. Tietenberg (1988), Environmental and Natural Resource Economics, Scott-Foresman. ISBN 0-673-18945-7.
* Philip A. Neher (1990), Natural Resource Economics: Conservation and Exploitation, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-31174-8.
* Steven C. Hackett (2001), Environmental and Natural Resources Economics: Theory, Policy, and the Sustainable Society, M.E. Sharpe. ISBN 0-7656-0682-8.
* Erhun Kula (1992), Economics of Natural Resources and the Environment, Springer. ISBN 0-412-36330-5.
* Juan C. Suris Regueiro, Manuel M. Varela Lafuente (1995), Introducción a la economía de los recursos naturales, Civitas. ISBN 84-470-0613-1.
* Pere Riera (2005), Manual de economía ambiental y de los recursos naturales, Thomson. ISBN 84-9732-369-6.
* Carlos Romero(1994), Economía de los recursos ambientales y naturales, Alianza Editorial. ISBN 84-206-6811-7.
* Alan Randall, Ricardo Calvet Perez (1985), Economía de los recursos naturales y política ambiental, Limusa. ISBN 968-18-1727-3.
* Roxana Barrantes (1997), Hacia un nuevo dorado: Economía de los recursos naturales, Consorcio de Investigación Económica. ISBN 9972-670-00-7. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs) 22:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring[edit]

You are edit warring Enano Humano and also have broken the frequency of editing guidelines about reverting [2] It seems you care little about consensus or Wikipedia guidelines. Your internet feud with Fresco has no place here. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Earl are you mad? RBE is not venus project, RBE in not Fresco. What happend with you? Why do you still trying to ignore all the others and real sources. Why do you try to fool us? None of the others sources talk about Fresco, because he is only another guy who are trying to make belive to everybody he have the right or authority over RBE concept. Where are your sources Earl? YOU DON`T HAVE SOURCES, YOU ONLY SOURCE IS A WEBSITE WITHOUT ANY STUDY, INVESTIGATION OR REFRENCES TO OTHER AUTHORS ABOUT RBE. Earl you only make auto-promotion to venus project and obviously you are a member of this project and a fanatic person. Please don´t support to Earl because he is trying to fool us with this fake reference on the article, so again the sources:
- Response from Patent office of USA to venus project over RBE: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP (RBE can´t have owner)
- Legal process about rejection RBE patent: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html ( venus project can´t prove the authority over RBE)
- Article. Debunked the venus project: http://theoverthinker.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/8.-Spirit-Of-The-Times-2012_issue8_web.pdf (venus project get money from activists to make a movie but they never made this movie and the money is lost)
- Real Bibliography from academic books:
* Barry C.Field (2000), Natural Resource Economics, McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-231677-2.
* Thomas H. Tietenberg (1988), Environmental and Natural Resource Economics, Scott-Foresman. ISBN 0-673-18945-7.
* Philip A. Neher (1990), Natural Resource Economics: Conservation and Exploitation, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-31174-8.
* Steven C. Hackett (2001), Environmental and Natural Resources Economics: Theory, Policy, and the Sustainable Society, M.E. Sharpe. ISBN 0-7656-0682-8.
* Erhun Kula (1992), Economics of Natural Resources and the Environment, Springer. ISBN 0-412-36330-5.
* Juan C. Suris Regueiro, Manuel M. Varela Lafuente (1995), Introducción a la economía de los recursos naturales, Civitas. ISBN 84-470-0613-1.
* Pere Riera (2005), Manual de economía ambiental y de los recursos naturales, Thomson. ISBN 84-9732-369-6.
* Carlos Romero(1994), Economía de los recursos ambientales y naturales, Alianza Editorial. ISBN 84-206-6811-7.
* Alan Randall, Ricardo Calvet Perez (1985), Economía de los recursos naturales y política ambiental, Limusa. ISBN 968-18-1727-3.
* Roxana Barrantes (1997), Hacia un nuevo dorado: Economía de los recursos naturales, Consorcio de Investigación Económica. ISBN 9972-670-00-7.
-
Everybody review all "debate" here and the arguments of Earl Jr. King: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resource-based_economy#Auto_promotion_to_TVP_in_this_article
PD: Like say the USA paten office: "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" for services incorrectly set forth as "Association services, namely, promoting the interests of alternative social sustainability and design." However, it appears that the proposed mark "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" is a pre-existing phrase in the socio-economic literature discussing economic models, a pre-existing phrase with a fairly widely known meaning." see more: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP PLEASE Don`t ignore this source Tom, Earl and everybody!
If somebody needs to corroborate this source please check with the serial number (77829193) onto the last doc shared in this web site: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs) 01:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Your what hurts? Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
lol Do you only can say this? Earl you don't have any argument, you are only a fanatic. Yoy only want use wikipedia to make auto-promotion to venus project. Where are your sources? Where are the sources of the venus project? Where is the economic model or economic theory of the venus project? Very sad Earl. Enano Humano, 21 January 2014
Yes, I love Fresco. He is the greatest genius of all time. He is better than Jesus Christ or Keith Richard. I get turned on at the thought of Fresco and his girlfriend in those domes giving lectures. I hope to god I can meet them one day and pledge my allegiance to them forever and forever. Auto promotion is a path to god. Thanks for understanding. Earl King Jr. (talk) 08:12, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Please keep calm, everybody. Any argument here needs to focus on the issue, not on persons. Also, it needs to be grounded in Wikipedia rules, like WP:HAT. Enano Humano, would you please make your argument why, according to WP:HAT, that hatnote shouldn't be in this article? Sjö (talk) 09:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Sounds good Sjo. Its beyond me why this person is left to edit here. Suggestion, alert an Admin. He is way beyond what is usually allowed. He violated basic guidelines here. Earl King Jr. (talk) 12:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Guys check the response from the US patent office https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP Try to make an any asociation of the term with venus project is Auto-promotion by Eal King, is so evident! This project is not a relevant source, please check an make the analysis! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs) 19:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Propose also using Natural-resource-based economy[edit]

The first reference used the phrase, "Natural-resource-based economy". I propose adding this as a redirect and explaining that both these phrases are used interchangeably.—68.7.95.95 (talk) 06:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

No. The article is not a plaything of primary sources from Zeitgeist or Venus project. Resource-based economy is different than the Faq's material you want to interject from Zeitgeist. The call for editors from your group non-with-standing we can not let the article reflect your primary source. Earl King Jr. (talk) 07:48, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Look again. 'The first reference used the phrase, "Natural-resource-based economy".' Look before you leap[3].—68.7.95.95 (talk) 09:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Again this article is trying to be used to auto promotion, Venus Project is not the source. The evidence: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs) 19:35, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Hatnote, again[edit]

Enano Humano has repeatedly removed the hatnote with links to "the economical ideas proposed by The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project". That link is there to comply with Wikipedia:Hatnote since it "help readers locate a different article they might be seeking". The phrase "resource-based economy" is used by both The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project and it's very likely that someone entering the phrase in Wikipedia's search field is looking for information about one of those. We should help that person find the article they are looking for. That has nothing to do with promotion, but everything to do with building an encyclopedia. Please note that any argument to remove the hatnote must be based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and so far I haven't seen any of that. Removing the hatnote without a valid reason is in my opinion vandalism that can lead to loss of editing privileges. Sjö (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

You are ignoring complety the sources about the manipulation from venus project and his fans in this article ( they don´t have a economic model o theory, please visit the website of venus project and read ), you can block me if you wish, I don't care if the proposition from venus project is ok or not, I am scared because they are trying to fool us, trying to be the principal source about RBE! Wikipedia must be impartial . . . you are making a mistake! :/
See more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resource-based_economy#Auto_promotion_to_TVP_in_this_article
Please check, Again the sources:
- Response from Patent Office of USA to venus project over RBE: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP (RBE can´t have owner)
- Legal process about rejection RBE patent: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html ( venus project can´t prove the authority over RBE)
- Article. Debunked the venus project: http://theoverthinker.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/8.-Spirit-Of-The-Times-2012_issue8_web.pdf (venus project get money from activists to make a movie but they never made this movie and the money is lost)
- Real Bibliography from academic books:
* Barry C.Field (2000), Natural Resource Economics, McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0-07-231677-2.
* Thomas H. Tietenberg (1988), Environmental and Natural Resource Economics, Scott-Foresman. ISBN 0-673-18945-7.
* Philip A. Neher (1990), Natural Resource Economics: Conservation and Exploitation, Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-31174-8.
* Steven C. Hackett (2001), Environmental and Natural Resources Economics: Theory, Policy, and the Sustainable Society, M.E. Sharpe. ISBN 0-7656-0682-8.
* Erhun Kula (1992), Economics of Natural Resources and the Environment, Springer. ISBN 0-412-36330-5.
* Juan C. Suris Regueiro, Manuel M. Varela Lafuente (1995), Introducción a la economía de los recursos naturales, Civitas. ISBN 84-470-0613-1.
* Pere Riera (2005), Manual de economía ambiental y de los recursos naturales, Thomson. ISBN 84-9732-369-6.
* Carlos Romero(1994), Economía de los recursos ambientales y naturales, Alianza Editorial. ISBN 84-206-6811-7.
* Alan Randall, Ricardo Calvet Perez (1985), Economía de los recursos naturales y política ambiental, Limusa. ISBN 968-18-1727-3.
* Roxana Barrantes (1997), Hacia un nuevo dorado: Economía de los recursos naturales, Consorcio de Investigación Económica. ISBN 9972-670-00-7.
-
Everybody review all "debate" here and the arguments of Earl Jr. King and now Sjö: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Resource-based_economy#Auto_promotion_to_TVP_in_this_article
PD: Like say the USA paten office: "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" for services incorrectly set forth as "Association services, namely, promoting the interests of alternative social sustainability and design." However, it appears that the proposed mark "RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY" is a pre-existing phrase in the socio-economic literature discussing economic models, a pre-existing phrase with a fairly widely known meaning." see more: https://archive.org/details/IntentoderegistrodelaEBRporTVP PLEASE Don`t ignore this source Sjö and everybody!
If somebody needs to corroborate this source please check with the serial number (77829193) onto the last doc shared in this web site: http://trademarks.breanlaw.com/77829193-resource-based-economy.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enano Humano (talkcontribs)
What you write has absolutely no bearing on whether there should be a hatnote in the article. Linking to another article about a concept wit a similar name is an important service to the reader. Sjö (talk) 08:10, 17 July 2017 (UTC)