Talk:Richard Dawkins

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Views on multiculturalism[edit]

I totally understand why people may view these edits as undue weight, but surely Dawkins' criticism of multiculturalism should be included in this article? Especially as editors keep removing Category:Critics of multiculturalism from this article, due to this content not being mentioned. – Zumoarirodoka(talk)(email) 17:25, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think that a short mention with source would be okay, like you did with this addition. But then you added this lot, which was quickly reverted here by I am One of Many. I propose we restore your first sourced addition. Ok with you, One of Many? - DVdm (talk) 17:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with your analysis! --I am One of Many (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you both very much! I've restored the edition you suggested Face-smile.svgZumoarirodoka(talk)(email) 17:56, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
You beat me to it. I had an edit conflict doing exactly the same Face-smile.svg. Cheers - DVdm (talk) 17:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Richard Dawkins#Criticism of multiculturalism looks like rubbish—the ref shows Dawkins objecting to creationism in schools. Does the video show anything by Dawkins to support the text in the artcle? If Dawkins really objects to "multiculturalism" I would expect to see him say so in print. Johnuniq (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I've looked at one article used as a source, and I think a reasonable interpretation of Dawkins's comments is that he is objecting to both creationism and multiculturalism. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
The section has two refs: 1 and 2 (video), plus a tweet. I have not watched the video. Please quote some words which show Dawkins is meaningfully a critic of multiculturalism. Has an independent source made that claim? All I can see is the standard stuff—Dawkins objecting to schools failing to present rigorous science. Johnuniq (talk) 23:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
In the Telegraph article, Dawkins is quoted saying, "Teachers are bending over backwards to respect home prejudices that children have been brought up with. The Government could do more, but it doesn't want to because it is fanatical about multiculturalism and the need to respect the different traditions from which these children come." Again, the reasonable interpretation is that Dawkins is being critical of both multiculturalism and creationism. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
That reasoning obliterates the meaning of "critic". Presumably there is some encyclopedic purpose for Category:Critics of multiculturalism, and I would expect that people in that category have said something that is clearly equivalent to "I oppose multiculturalism", or where independent secondary sources have stated that the person is such a critic. The above quote shows that Dawkins is objecting to what children are being taught in schools, and he is criticizing the government for abandoning education. Where is the source showing that Dawkins objects to multiculturalism? Editors should not interpret the above as placing Dawkins in the critic pigeonhole—doing so is WP:SYNTH (original research). Johnuniq (talk) 00:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
That Dawkins is critical of multiculturalism is the obvious, natural interpretation of his comments - the overwhelming majority of people would understand them that way, and they would be right to do so. This has nothing to do with synthesis, which involves using multiple sources to draw novel conclusions. It is just false to claim that someone has to say something exactly equivalent to "I oppose multiculturalism" for a "Critics of multiculturalism" category to be applicable to their article. Your position would make applying such categories all but impossible in most cases. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:45, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
One passing mention of multiculturalism in a quote is not enough to justify putting Dawkins in that category. Without reliable secondary sources it would be original research and also give undue weight.Charles (talk) 21:08, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to mention some of Dawkins' views on how science is taught, but I am not sure it is appropriate to put him in Category:Critics of multiculturalism. He seems to be saying that the truth of science overrides the variation of other beliefs in a multicultural society. I do not think that the sources support that he objects to multiculturalism itself. --Bduke (Discussion) 12:05, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree with that. Perhaps we can keep the text of this edit, but remove the category, and replace the section header with Multiculturalism". - DVdm (talk) 13:17, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
According to Criticism of multiculturalism, calling Dawkins a critic of multiculturalism means he "questions the ideal of the maintenance of distinct ethnic cultures within a state". Does anyone know of a reliable source connecting Dawkins with that or with any of the items discussed at Criticism of multiculturalism#United Kingdom? Two sources have been presented to verify the critic text: The Telegraph and Video

Would someone more patient and trusting than me please outline how the video is relevant. The first source shows Dawkins objecting to the acceptance of creationism in schools with an extremely thin mention of multiculturalism. I suppose the article could have a "Mentions of Dawkins" section where the current news-of-the-day is listed, but the multiculturalism section should be deleted as WP:SYNTH until a secondary source asserts that Dawkins is in any sense a meaningful critic of multiculturalism. True to form, Dawkins is objecting to the presentation of creationism in schools. Johnuniq (talk) 06:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I can't help totally agreeing with all this too Face-smile.svg. - DVdm (talk) 11:21, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the multiculturalism section is pure synthesis and should be deleted. --I am One of Many (talk) 14:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Culture: “the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time of an ethnic group”. [Merriam-Webster]

Multiculturalism: “the presence of, or support for, the presence of several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society.” [Oxford Dictionaries (UK)].

When Dawkins said “Teachers are bending over backwards to respect home prejudices that children have been brought up with. The Government could do more, but it doesn't want to because it is fanatical about multiculturalism and the need to respect the different traditions from which these children come”, it is abundantly clear that he was objecting to "prejudices". To accuse him of being against multiculturalism in its broader aspects is outrageous and insulting.Ericlord (talk) 15:53, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I removed the "Criticism of multiculturalism" text. Would anyone wanting to add it please respond to the points raised above. In particular, what is in the video and how does it verify that Dawkins fits the descriptions at Criticism of multiculturalism? What independent reliable source has described Dawkins as a critic of multiculturalism? Johnuniq (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I think your edits were a mistake. The category clearly does apply, just on the basis of common sense. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I asked a couple of simple questions which should be addressed. If something is "common sense", there should be a source mentioning it. Johnuniq (talk) 05:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
@Johnuniq, I'm glad you removed the text, not only is it WP:SYNTH, but I also think WP:BLP applies given Ericlord comment above. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I too am glad it is gone. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Same here. The presence of the category and the section header were inappropriate. At most we could mention his criticism of the Governement's fanaticism about multiculturalism, but I don't see where. Or why. - DVdm (talk) 17:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Feature article nominator please?[edit]

This article has languished for over five years as a Good Article. Could some appropriate person please Wikipedia:Be bold and nominate this article for featured article status? Short of that, then at least another peer review.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 23:48, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Some feedback from a user's talk page:
I had a quick look and it needs some work before a nomination. The reference area needs some work to bring it up to FA standard, such as names of newspapers need to be in italics should be done by moving the |publisher= to |work= field of the reference. Dates are in various formats –day first, month first & ISO–need to be all in day first format, which is appropriate for the article. Keith D (talk) 09:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A suggestion: examine Reese Witherspoon and ask yourself why her BLP is FA and not this one. We need secondary sources. Not Dawkins' own CV, which we use in several places. Not YouTube videos or MP3's of which there are many. What we should focus on is Dawkins' career and what news (controversial or otherwise) that he has made in the past ten years. That will get this BLP to FA.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I withdraw my suggestion that somebody nominate this article for FA. When you examine other FA BLP's like Witherspoon or Hillary Clinton, you see a chronological history of events and accomplishments that made the news. This article does not follow that pattern and, I suspect, will thus never be FA.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 03:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

One sided[edit]

It would be helpful if some of Dawkins' more unsavoury statements were included, e.g. his comments on "mild rape" and "mild paedophilia", and numerous others. This reads like a secular hagiography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.39.159.74 (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

It is already in the Political views of Richard Dawkins article. The problem is that the "Other fields" section already has six choppy paragraphs and this article will never be brilliant prose or FA with the kitchen sink of one-liner paragraphs thrown into the "Other" sections.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 03:15, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I added a paragraph cited by this current event: Richard Dawkins dropped from science event for tweeting video mocking feminists and Islamists. From that, the reader should get the picture that Dawkins might be slightly out-of-touch with current social sensitivities.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 03:19, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Lots of archiveurl's[edit]

There are a lot of archiveurl's in the citations. I wonder if we can somehow update some of these url's with newer web pages. It seems to be a part of why this article has not been nominated for FA in a long time.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 03:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Secondary sources[edit]

I feel that this article should be re-worked to avoid citations pointing to http://richarddawkins.net/, the subject's CV, YouTube videos and other such sources. We should be searching the news for sources. I caution us not to add one-liner paragraphs to the "Other fields" section. Again, look to Reese Witherspoon for an example of an FA BLP.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 03:55, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Science first, then atheism and the rest[edit]

The organization of this article should be:

  1. Deal with the subject as a scientist
  2. Deal with his atheism
  3. Deal with the rest

The lead now reflects this order. Let us move the other sections around to do the same so that the article appears more orderly to the reader. BTW: The Foundation is a science thing since it is primary about evolution, at least according to the lead.--130.65.109.103 (talk) 22:52, 10 February 2016 (UTC)