Talk:Richard Williams (RAAF officer)

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RAAF personnel in Europe in Australian units[edit]

Nice expansion, Ian. I'm not sure if it was you who added: "Williams maintained that RAAF personnel in Europe should serve in Australian units to preserve their national identity, rather than be integrated into RAF squadrons, but he was overruled"(?) I'm just curious -- separate squadrons were a key aspect of Article XV and I was under the impression that the RAAF were quite keen on it, but they just didn't jump up and own about it. Or was Williams proposing that they should jump up and down about it? Cheers, Grant | Talk 04:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate. Yes I added that, this is pretty much a complete rewrite of everything that was there before as well as expansion since the previous version was largely a straight copy of RW's AWM bio. Thanks for picking up on this - it shows the value of peer reviews as my wording was a bit lazy. As the EATS article states, "Under Article XV of the training plan, graduates were supposed to be assigned to squadrons from their own air forces or with a specific national designation, which were under the operational control of the Royal Air Force (RAF). [...] However, in practice — and technically in contravention of Article XV — most personnel from other air forces, while they were under RAF operational control, were assigned to British units." What I was implying in the Williams article is that he was unhappy that the Article XV provisions were not often followed in practice - the "overruled" part is an oversimplification. Suppose I reword the RW article to something like: "Williams maintained that RAAF personnel in Europe should serve in Australian units to preserve their national identity, as per Article XV of the Empire Air Training Scheme, rather than be integrated into RAF squadrons, but in practice most served in British units." Cheers, Ian Rose 08:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Director General of Civil Aviation[edit]

1946 to 1955 is about nine years, not 20 as stated.Grahamec 02:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Appears to have been best part of 10 years but, in any case, mea culpa and thanks for spotting it. Cheers, Ian Rose 03:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


He appears to have briefly held an RAF commission per "no. 32078". The London Gazette. 8 October 1920. p. 9816. Retrieved 2008-06-08.  Check date values in: |date= (help) - worth mentioning? (he also listed under the RAF for his OBE, albeit with (AusFC) after his name) David Underdown (talk) 09:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Now also found the original notice of the RAF commission "a temp, supplemental commn. as Lt.-Col. (A.). 28th June 1918.", "no. 31380". The London Gazette. 3 June 1919. p. 7070. Retrieved 2008-06-08.  Check date values in: |date= (help). Presuambly the end of his RAF commission coincides with his return to Australia. David Underdown (talk) 10:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh, I've just found out why he had this additional commission - so that as an Australian he could exercise discipline over the British units under his command while OC of No. 40 Wing RAF! In itself, I thought mentioning the RAF commission would be a bit confusing - now that we know the reason for it, it's definitely going in... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Richard Williams and the Palestine Brigade[edit]

The following comments have been copied from my talk page and are listed here for continuity's sake:

Hi mate, I'm dubious about the Palestine Brigade appointment if RAF Web is the only reference - I've used that site often in B/GA-class articles but to be honest I doubt it cuts the mustard as a reliable source at FA level. None of my other refs mention Williams as anything higher than 40th Wing commander so unless there's further authoritative citations somewhere I think we should delete it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Confirmation of Williams appointment is on the Australian Dictionary of Biography ( which states that "After a brief period as temporary brigade commander, Williams was appointed O.B.E. in January 1919." The rafweb reference and this one are good enough for me. What do you think? Greenshed (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Heh, fair enough! I even used the ADB when writing the article yonks ago but obviously didn't immediately associate 'temporary brigade commander' with the Palestine Brigade mentioned earlier 'cos it wasn't spelt out. I still think RAF Web could be challenged as a reliable source at this level, as I'd equate it with The Aerodrome, which has been challenged at A-Class. For that reason I'm happy to leave this now but will add ADB as another citation; reckon we should also spell out 'temporary' commander. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
BTW, you planning to make good on those red links soon? Do you want to do one and me the other - I agree they should have articles, I just like to get rid of red links as soon as possible...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Rafweb is almost always reliable although I have seen a couple of errors there (even published paper sources are subject to this sort of low frequency error rate). The author, Malcolm Barrass, has used the London Gazette along with a wide range of other sources but we don't know exactly where each snippet of information comes from. As regards red links, I agree and I am working on RAF Palestine Brigade at the moment. Any assistance would be gratefully recieved. I will try and help if you set to work on No. 40 Wing RAF but I will be away from WP for much of this weekend though. Greenshed (talk) 22:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Yep, don't get me wrong, I think RAF Web is great, sober and unsensational, a real labour of love that I've used many times. It's just that being private and not employing citations clouds its benefits a bit as far as A/FA-level articles go, similar to The Aerodrome (though every now and then that one does cite its sources). Anyway, good talking, I'm taking a bit of break as well after a solid month in Feb... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)