Talk:Rite of passage
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- 2 Islam Rite of Passage
- 3 Thracian Crastolo?
- 4 North American Coming of Age
- 5 Modern/Western rites of passage
- 6 Order of "Coming of Age in America 20th CEN"
- 7 Coming of age in U.S. folklore in the late 20th century
- 8 Three stages of RoP
- 9 Schoolies Week
- 10 Should not redirect from "right of passage"
- 11 File:20050921circoncisionB.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
- 12 This isn't right
- 13 Replaced intro
- 14 Confusion about the Intro
Why are divorce and retirement being called "rites"? Sometimes some rites accompany retirement, but retirement often occurs even when there is no such rite. Not to say they couldn't exist, but I've never heard of any rites accompanying divorceItalic text.
- It is not necessarily a "rite" as you may be thinking, involving a socially recognized ceremony. However, a divorce does not just happen. There is something that grants formality, public and social recognition. A person can't just walk out of the house and decide "I think I'm divorced now". Society (and the law) has placed certain steps that dictate how a divorce must occur. Aside from legal wrangling, there is also the moment when some one decides to remove the wedding ring, and there is the highly symbolic and emotionally laden "signing of the papers". These are smaller events that lead a person from one state of being (married) through the liminal state (separation) to the end point, when he or she is recognized as being in a completely new state (divorced), which is often symbolized in some significant though often idiosyncratic way, such as going out socially with bachelor friends or going on the first date after a divorce is final. Each of these steps are rites, as an individuals passes from one state to another, thus it is a "rite of passage". Boneyard90 (talk) 23:52, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Islam Rite of Passage
i removed the part where circumcision is thought to be rite of passage in Islam. Where is your reference? circumcision is done in Islam for hygiene (cleanliness) only as instructed by religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 14:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
- Here are several references. I don't know the Wikipedia citation rules, and I'm not suggesting that these are legitimate references in the Wikipdia sense. But collectively they suggest that circumcision is a rite of passage in Islam. I think this part should be restored. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 01:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Anyone know/want to research whether this is a real phenomenon or a vandalous/joke edit? I can't tell. (If the person who added the information wants to cite sources, that would be great.) Hbackman 04:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Here is the guilty material:
Thracian Crastolo: in ancient Thrace, a boy, upon reaching the age of thirteen, was given his first spear. He was then sent out into the hills outside of his village for a week or sometimes more. The boy would create his own shelter and live out in the hills until he was able to fully accept his role in society, after which acceptance he would return to the village. He would be greeted with a large meal prepared by the entire village, consisting mostly of roasted lamb and pancakes flavored with onions and served with a garlic butter made of goats' milk or cheese, similar to the Jewish latke. He would then be danced for by older men. They would perform the "Thracian Fire Dance" or Anastenaria and dance around fires with torches. When the fire died down they would tread upon the ashes of the fire, finally inviting the boy to join in. He was then presented with a newly forged sword, if he was to be a mercenary, or a pickaxe if he was to become a miner.
- Amusing that he fooled us for a whole year. But if anyone can show this is for real, post it back with proper citations, and I'll eat my hat. Haiduc 06:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
North American Coming of Age
- First obtained driver's license
- First learned to ride a bicycle
Do North Americans tend to forget how to ride a bike, so there is at least a second learned to ride a bicycle, and is it common to obtain several driver's licenses...? --Abdull 14:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
- You make a good point about the bicycle example, it was worded poorly; but "Learning to ride a bicycle" is a rite of passage in North America. As for the driver's license, I would say yes, it is fairly common to obtain more than one. Each state has its own laws regarding licensing, so each time you move to a new state, you have to apply (and sometimes take a test) for a new license. Licences are also different for motorcycles or other vehicles, so a person can have several types of driver's licenses. Because of these reasons, I've had 5 or 6 driver's licenses in my life. Finally, if you break the law and have the license revoked, you may have to apply and test for a new license. Hope this answers your questions.Boneyard90 (talk) 21:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Modern/Western rites of passage
Retitled to "Modern rites of passage". Those rites of passage described there aren't confined to North America, or even to Western society - not everyone outside the United States is a disabled, mute, uneducated, unloved, non-working, teetotal, unmarried person without any children living with their parents (I think that covers everything on the list). Makaar 21:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- That is NOT the point- do non-Western societies consider these 'transitions' so typical and important as to choose them as rite of passage, or do they prefer some alternative, which may be inspired not be presnet practical considerations but by their ancestral way of life, religious traditions etc., ord o only westernized sections (e.g. educated young generations)? Fastifex 16:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- "Western"? "Modern"? I think that this list actually is north-american centered, because it lists moments that aren't so important elsewhere, even in the west. For example, I don't know what this "prom" thing is all about (seen it only in american movies?), and much less this "dorm" thing (That one is even more alien)--220.127.116.11 16:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else find it a little bit silly that birth and death are listed as rites of passage, let alone uniquely American rites of passage?
I do find it silly that they are listed as uniquely American rites of passage, but not that they are listed as rites of passage. A rite of passage is a collection of rituals that are common in a given culture when an individual or group moves from one social status to another. The way many culture groups act when a new child is born or a member of the group dies do qualify as rites of passage. An example is funeral rites in American society. The deceased is moving from the social group of "living" into the social group of "dead". Following the terms Arnold van Gennep used to describe rites of passage, the "separation" occurs when the individual dies (though in cases of long-term illness this could be said to begin once the disease is diagnosed). "Liminality" occurs while the individual is being embalmed, this is the point where he or she is, as Victor Turner would put it, "betwixt and between" the two social groups. Finally, incorporation comes during the viewing and the burial service when the individual is presented as a dead person ready to be buried, and finally laid to rest.
Order of "Coming of Age in America 20th CEN"
Why is "losing one's virginity" listed after marriage and so obviously out of place?!?! Besides, we don't really have rites of passage in the dominate American culture!!! --Carlon 01:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Coming of age in U.S. folklore in the late 20th century
This part of the article is questionable given the lack of sources. It needs to be verified or else this can be construed as original research.
Since when has Death become a Coming of Age Ritual in North America? Does any other culture regard death as a right of passage? A milestone yes, coming of age, hardly. Grifter tm (talk) 08:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
On second thought, since the whole section isn't sourced, I'm taking it out. A lot of people in the US might not agree, but since there are no sources that can be used to verify the whole section, it might be taken as original research. Grifter tm (talk) 02:44, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Three stages of RoP
Given that liminality is discussed on another page, this page seems to contain a pretty decent summary. On the other hand, the three stages need their own subsection separate from "History of Term", and need to be cited. Furthermore, the History of Term presented is imprecise, as the term was originated by Arnold van Gennep as the title of his book in which the concept was first presented. Victor Turner, Mary Douglas, and Joseph Campbell largely based their theories on his ideas, and if there are no objections I'm going to change the article to reflect this. Josterhage (talk) 09:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
An IP removed the reference to Schoolies Week. I read the article, and I feel that it DOES fit the description of a Rite of Passage. However, without a verifiable source describing it as such, its inclusion may constitute Original Research. So, I'm going to leave it as is unless someone can find a source describing it as a Rite of Passage. Josterhage (talk) 20:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Should not redirect from "right of passage"
"Right of passage" should not redirect to "rite of passage." They are two quite different things. "Right of passage" is a term in international law, meaning (approximately) a country's right for its ships to pass through coastal straits. (See, for example, http://www.seerecht.org/wegelein/iptext.htm .) There's at least one instance in Wikipedia which links to "right of passage" using this definition. See the "Geography" section of the "Bosnia and Herzegovina" article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina .
Someone needs to create (or restore?) the "right of passage" article. It would be better for it to link to nothing, than to link to "rite of passage." As a side note, a Google search does return a number of hits where "right of passage" is misused in the meaning "rite of passage." 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
File:20050921circoncisionB.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
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This isn't right
I was just reading Gennep. The view presented here is not right. Gennep says that society is divided into a great many subgroups. A passage is when individuals change subgroups. It is marked by various sorts of rituals, and he goes on to define them. Growing up, initiation, and all that, is only one aspect of a passage and the attendant ritual. So, the article does not pay attention to basic definitions. It is not comprehensive in scope. I do believe Gennep devised the term, but that needs to be checked. We are talking French terms here. Rite de Passage is nothing you would say in English if it did not already exist in French. Groups also can change subgroups. I tired to check the editor's refs, but he has a convenient system of avoiding them and making it look right. Very clever. Might have been easier just to learn the way to do it. He sets up what looks like a harvard ref in a footnote, so you do not expect a complete ref there. However, you may not get the complete ref in the Bibliography, either. Neither chapter nor pages might be specified. He does not say where in Gennep all this stuff comes from. In fact, nowhere. Gennep has a different idea. This is not a bad article; in fact, I like it. No one can be expected to do everything right. I think though we need to begin with basic definitions. What is a Rite of Passage, who defined it, and when? Why is it called rite of passage or is that just something any sophomore would be expected to imbibe through the skin? As a handmaiden to this effort we need correctly formatted and filled out references, just like in a real academic article. So, I will at some point start on this, since I am looking at the Anthropology of Religion articles. The French article is better, I think, but let's see what we can do.Botteville (talk) 21:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
"is a ritual event that marks a person's transition from one status to another. Rites of passage explore and describe various notable milestones in an individual's life, for any marked transitional stage, when one's social status is altered.
The concept of rites of passage as a general theory of socialization was first formally articulated by Arnold van Gennep in his book The Rites of Passage to denote rituals marking the transitional phase between childhood and full inclusion into a tribe or social group. Van Gennep's work exercised a deep impact on anthropological thought. Milestones include transitions from puberty, junior, middle and high school, coming of age, marriage, family and death."
My reasons are, it is unreferenced, unencyclopedic and wrong. I apologize for any upset such a statement may cause you. Do you hate me? Transition from one social status to another. Gennep does not mention any social status. That is editorial interpretation. In Gennep, people pass between groups. The passage might be a milestone and it might not be. What's milestone? A planned success? Let's use Gennep's language. Not all milestones are ritualized. A murderer is executed while praying. Is that milestone? It is a rite of passage. Gennep is not describing a debutante ball here. The milestone might not be notable. Moreover, rites do not alter anything, they only celebrate alteration. Moreover, Gennep's purpose was not to denote rituals marking the transition between childhood and full inclusion. He tries to be quite general. Any sort of a passage in the sacred sphere will do. Maybe the worst item is the the general theory of socialization. Rites of passage have nothing at all to do with socialization. You have to do that independently. Let's take infant baptism. Exactly what socialization takes place there? Or, the Bar Mitzvah. If you can't already read your Hebrew or have an idea how to behave as a man in the Jewish religion, you don't get the Bar Mitzvah. It's a rite not a socialization. We don't educate our children with rites of passage. Now, the deep impact. You don't say? How deep? Are you able to say at this point? Non-encyclopedic and obvious. Well, I need to get more of the new intro in there. Ciao.Botteville (talk) 17:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC).
Here's another removal:
"Initiation ceremonies such as baptism, akika, upanayana, confirmation and Bar or Bat Mitzvah are considered important rites of passage for people of their respective religions. Rites of passage show anthropologists what social hierarchies, values and beliefs are important in specific cultures."
I'm following the principle that whatever says nothing can't be encyclopedic The editor seems to have intended some fluff, or fill-in, but I think we are better than that.. The examples of initiation, those are given in a distinct section below. The editor seems fixated of statuses and social hierarchies - social climbing - but the book is not about social climbing. You could follow a similar course in describing, say, the decline of an alcoholic: the loss of a job, the divorce, the court hearings, the expulsion from the clubs, the associations with the organizations intended to help alcoholics, the prison sentence, etc. Those are groups too, those are rite of passage too. This is a general model here, which is so life-like it was immediately recognizd as true.Botteville (talk) 00:07, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Confusion about the Intro
I guess the intro featuring 'a monkey raping a patato' is a hoax. It may have replaced the original short definition and description that are easy to understand at first glance, which is the most important part. Can anyone locate the original first part and fix that? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TMA-1701 (talk • contribs) 10:35, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Van Gennep 1909.
- Garces-Foley 2006: 230.