Talk:Rolf Harris

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Kids Can Say No![edit]

This film was released in the UK in 1985, not 1989 as the article states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:D401:5B00:55E:FA10:49E9:6CC9 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Fixed General Ization Talk 18:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Vanessa Feltz and Linda Nolan[edit]

Re this edit: WP:BLPCRIME applies here. The BBC News article only claims this, and he has never been charged or convicted over either of these claims. This has been discussed before, and some people have expressed surprise that Vanessa Feltz and Linda Nolan did not make these claims to the police after Harris was arrested. Unless a British person had been living down a coal mine or taking an extended holiday on Mars, they could hardly have failed to notice that Rolf Harris had been charged with sexual offences.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:45, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with your opinion, and was thinking the same when I saw the edits. It is difficult to type the next sentence due to BLP, so feel free to redact if need be. If Harris did feel Feltz's thigh whilst she was an adult, it palls into insignificance compared to what he was actually convicted of. I think WP:BALANCE is a reason to keep this out unless there is specific allegation made to the police, or an attempt to prosecute. Martin451 20:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Martin, London24.com has the Harris hand "inside the elastic of her knickers in front of millions of viewers, with his wife Alwen in the room": [1]. But, of course, this probably shouldn't appear in the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
I got the details wrong on her allegations, and if Vanessa is reading I apologise. I still think this is not close to what he was convicted of, and an allegation not backed up by a complaint to the police or courts is not suitable to be included given the seriousness of what he was convicted for. I wonder if Vanessa knows this, which is why she has not made a complaint. Feel free to redact if needed. Martin451 22:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
As the BBC News source explains, Feltz put her trust in the "Great British public", rather than the police... and got a whole truck load of abuse as a result. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:13, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

These issues are sourced to the BBC website, normally a reliable source. PatGallacher (talk) 22:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The BBC sourcing isn't a problem. What is more of a problem is the WP:BLPCRIME angle. Vanessa Feltz and Linda Nolan decided to air these allegations in the media without pursuing them in court. They probably wouldn't have done this until Harris had been convicted due to the risk of setting off a libel action. As BLPCRIME says, "Allegations, accusations, investigations, and arrests on suspicion of involvement are not a conviction."--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 04:45, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
This is getting into dangerous waters, getting judgemental about the reasons that victims of sexual assault may have had for being reluctant to publicly air their allegations. PatGallacher (talk) 12:09, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
I wasn't trying to do that. For whatever reason, they didn't raise the issue until after the trial. The risk of setting off a libel action is one of the reasons why the British media never reported the Duncroft allegations during Jimmy Savile's lifetime. Harris now has no reputation left to lose. Since he is in prison after being convicted for things that a jury found that he did do, there is little point in including the allegations by Vanessa Feltz and Linda Nolan which are untested. Ann Leslie made a similar allegation about Nicholas Fairbairn.[2] Maybe she just couldn't be bothered with all of the hassle and publicity that taking it to court would have entailed; Fairbairn had been dead for 13 years when she wrote this in her autobiography.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:14, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
At least Leslie wasn't "left-wing scum" (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Opening sentence (again)[edit]

Is Harris still an entertainer? Does this depend on him resuming his career as entertainer if and when he is released? Was he even "an entertainer" before his convictions and imprisonment? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:01, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

My feeling is yes. For example, his songs remain available on outlets like Spotify for those who are willing to look past his convictions and be entertained by his performances. I don't think it depends on him resuming performing or recording. Harper Lee, for example, was referred to as a writer even though she hadn't written anything in decades. Entertaining is what Harris has mostly been notable for throughout his life until his convictions. It remains his main claim to notability. Had he not been in the public eye as an entertainer in the first place, it is very unlikely that there would be an article about him at all. Harry Let us have speaks 18:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

A comment not on the sentance but his profile picture. Surely it should represent his modern day image? I.E after his conviction? Just a comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.102.178 (talk) 21:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Categories[edit]

Why is he not showing up in any of the many categories he's supposedly in. I've checked about 15 of them - nothing. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:48, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I have just checked more than half of them and he appears in all of those. MilborneOne (talk) 17:42, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Early Career[edit]

We bought our first TV at the end of 1956. I have a memory from the first year or two that we owned a TV that Rolf Harris appeared fairly regularly in a programme called "The house that Jim built" on Childrens's TV on ITV. He used to paint a big picture on a blank wall, then tell a story or sing a song about it, playing the guitar. At the time I thought he was a pretty talented artist and singer,and quite a nice guy. This was earlier than some of the other things mentioned in the article. (PS Comedian Charlie Drake appeared in the same programme) 86.157.139.30 (talk) 14:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

This drew a blank on the IMDb entries of Rolf Harris and Charlie Drake. IMDb is good at listing exhaustively everything that a person has appeared in. Nothing in a Google search either. Bit of a mystery, as it would need some sourcing to be mentioned in the article.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, found something mentioning it here.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

"Rushed to hospital"[edit]

In The Standard, but sourced from The Sun where at least we get "SICK SICKO Jailed peado". I think it's already disappeared as a real story. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

It's one of those "sources said" type of news stories. If true, it has WP:NOTNEWSPAPER issues at the moment. Remember the chocolate overdose in November 2015, nothing much came of this.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:44, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Appeal/conviction review[edit]

Could we please insert a reference to the effect that Rolf Harris plans to appeal his conviction in December? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.132.186.239 (talk) 13:54, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

This is in the news here but there is an element of WP:CRYSTAL so it is best to wait until it happens. Harris had previously said in December 2014 that he would not appeal against his June 2014 convictions.[3]--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:42, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Mention of Savile[edit]

The allegations were not linked to those made against Jimmy Savile...

But why would they be? Nobody suggested they were hunting in pairs. Valetude (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Operation Yewtree originally started as an investigation just into Savile, it later expanded to three strands, only one of which involved people unrelated to Savile.LM2000 (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
The Guardian cite says "The individual falls under the strand of the investigation we have termed 'others'. These are individuals who have come to police attention as part of the Operation Yewtree investigation into Jimmy Savile but whose alleged offences are not connected to Savile."[4] There were no close links between Savile and Harris, so maybe it isn't necessary to say this.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:33, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Date of Havant incident[edit]

Re this edit: It involves Witness A, and as far as the judge was concerned in his sentencing remarks, it occurred in 1969.[5] However, it proved to be impossible to pin down an exact date for this incident, or even to prove that Harris had been to the Portsmouth area at around that time, despite checking the local newspaper archive. This was previously discussed at Talk:Rolf_Harris/Archive_2#Ages_of_victims_as_given_in_article. Witness A said that Harris sang "Two Little Boys" but this was not released until late 1969, so 1968 seems implausible.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Seems fair. Does the article need further clarification, perhaps? He could, of course, have just been "testing the water" with "Two Little Boys". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:55, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
When Harris was charged over Witness A, it was said to have occurred in 1968 or 1969.[6] However, by the time that he had been convicted and sentenced, it had morphed into a fixed date of 1969. Unlike the Star Games incident in Cambridge, where the video of the show was able to pin it down to 1978, the date of the Havant incident has no independent corroborating evidence. 1969 is pure guesswork IMAO, but that's another story. The wording of the article could be tweaked.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
So just to be 100% clear here - Harris was convicted on a charge, over an assualt, the date of which was unknown by anyone but the victim? And what the victim herself said was slightly contradictory? But we need to report a date, that the judge thought was "most likely", as a fact? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:03, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
As I said at Talk:Rolf_Harris/Archive_2#Ages_of_victims_as_given_in_article, the judge pinned it down to 1969 during his sentencing remarks even though it wasn't possible to produce any corroborating evidence. While this is not unusual in cases of historic sexual abuse, it is worrying that nobody could find any local newspaper cuttings of Harris visiting the Portsmouth area in 1969. Bearing in mind that the Star Games witness got the date wrong by a margin of three years (she estimated around 1975 when it was actually 1978) the Havant incident could have occurred over a time span of several years after 1969, which was when Harris released "Two Little Boys". I'm not sure what convinced Nigel Sweeney that the Havant incident was in 1969 when the evidence is far from clear on this issue, but if m'lud says so, it must be true. Or perhaps not as the case may be. It would be WP:OR to contradict him.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Perish the thought. Petercook123 (talk) 10:40, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Nationaility[edit]

There was a previous discussion in Talk:Rolf Harris/Archive 1#Nationality? The consensus seems to be just "Australian", unless, any new sources have appeared? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:11, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

This is reminiscent of the argument over whether Terry Wogan was Irish or British. I'm not an expert on nationality law, but Australian seems to be preferred by most sources.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:54, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Checked but some no longer work - e.g. "rolfharrisentertainer is dead". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:22, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Have you guessed what it is yet? Yes, very tasteless[edit]

This is in the news today. An ideal opportunity for tabloid outrage.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:29, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, great to see Wikipedia's favourite newspaper shamelessly raiding the news coffers of an even more honorable source. It sounds like the riotous Cromer Carnival has really outdone itself this year. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
It's not an original idea either, based on this way of spending £27.99.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Does that come with a real Havana?? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:11, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Quashed conviction in lede[edit]

Should we remove mention of the conviction related the the eight-year-old in "1968 or 1969" given that the conviction has since been quashed?LM2000 (talk) 05:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

This is a good point, as leaving it in the lead may give a misleading impression. The 8-year-old was the youngest alleged victim, but nobody could find any credible evidence that Harris had been to Portsmouth in 1969, and the male witness who supported this (now dead) turned out to be someone who claimed to have served in Korea in the late 1960s and had convictions for dishonesty. As Lord Justice Treacy said: "That might have been thought to be somewhat odd since the Korean War took place in the early 1950s."[7] The lead should not contain excess detail, but probably shouldn't imply that he was convicted of assault on an eight-year-old when it was subsequently quashed.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Re this edit: the previous wording is simpler and Harris's reputation is by no means rehabilitated by the fact that one of the convictions was overturned. It is notable, however, that if the police and the CPS had done some basic background research, the Portsmouth charge would probably never have come to court in the first place. Lord Justice Treacy described this a "significant failing". Also, there is no need to mention the criminal convictions in the infobox, past consensus is against this as Harris is famous for things other than criminal convictions.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:47, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

info box and others[edit]

his conviction details should be in the info box re other convicted celebrities. His jail term should be in the lead, no reason at all why it isnt? The age of the victims at the time of the offences should be stated, not their ages when he went to trial? All of these are common sense and valid wiki policiesSimply-the-truth (talk) 13:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Dear STT: you are rapidly becoming a pest with your desire to insert "the truth" into articles. There is no need to use the wording that was reverted and your editing pattern is WP:TENDENTIOUS. Please find a new hobby other than grinding axes on Wikipedia. Past consensus is not to mention the convictions in the infobox, because they imply that his 2014 convictions are his chief source of notability. They are obviously important, but he is famous primarily as an entertainer. If it weren't for his fame as an entertainer, he would not have an article in the first place.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:43, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
please remain civil, because I disagree with you doesnt mean you are correct? I will bow to your much superior experience re the infobox, even though I think it should be there. But the length of his sentence should be in the lead? Simply-the-truth (talk) 20:44, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

proposed rewrite of the lead[edit]

It looks clunky and not well written because of recent changes. I propose the following re-write:

Rolf Harris (born 30 March 1930) is an Australian entertainer whose career has encompassed work as a musician, singer-songwriter, composer, comedian, actor, painter and television personality.[4] Harris is widely known for his musical compositions "Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport", which later became a Top 10 hit in Australia, the UK, and the United States, and "Jake the Peg". He often used unusual instruments in his performances: he played the didgeridoo; is credited with the invention of the wobble board; and is associated with the Stylophone.[5]

During the 1960s and 1970s, Harris became a popular television personality in the UK, later presenting shows such as Rolf's Cartoon Club and Animal Hospital. In 2005, he painted an official portrait of Queen Elizabeth II.

Harris's career as a popular entertainer ended when he was convicted and imprisoned for sexual offences. In 2014, at the age of 84, he was convicted on eleven counts of indecent assault that took place between 1968 or 1969 and 1986, on four female victims aged between 13 and 15 at the time of the offences. He was jailed for 5 years and 9 months and was released in May 2017 after serving nearly three years.

As a result, he was stripped of many of the honours he had been awarded during his career, including the AO and CBE

My reasoning: Not really relevant where he lived for so many years, and defo not needed in the lead. No need to mention the one offence against the 8 year old, as this was later overturned so shouldnt be in the lead and is covered in the article. The ages of the victims should be in the lead, and not their ages when he was convicted. His friends daughter was 13 for example when the abuse took place, that was what he was found guilty of. His sentence should be in the lead as it is for all other cases and is an important fact. Where he was released from is not an important fact. Hope this all makes sense, I am simply trying to make the lead read better, please lets work together on this and no-one push what they want as a final decisionSimply-the-truth (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I see no need to alter the first two paragraphs. I agree that the eight-year old should not be mentioned. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
So where he lived should be in the lead, but not his sentence? Where he was released from should be in the lead as well? Surely they are not that important? Plus as he is now innocent of the crime against the 8 year old, should that really be in his lead? And, again, I am not trying to annoy anyone here, just giving my opinion. If others disagree, thats fineSimply-the-truth (talk) 21:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Martinevans123 I see you have added where he lived again to the lead, sorry, but I just dont see why that is important enough to be in there?Simply-the-truth (talk) 21:05, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Many celebrities live in many different locations across the world. I think the fact that Harris lived quietly, indeed comparatively modestly, in one place for so long, is quite notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the update, much appreciated. Thats a reason for sure. I dont think relevant enough for the lead, but I suppose no harm there. This wiki stuff is very confusing! Thanks againSimply-the-truth (talk) 21:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, quite confusing. One often gets complete strangers appearing on one's Talk page and then disappearing within minutes. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry about that mate! No offence meant. I was trying to explain a different thing I did wrong to a different ediidor, not you. Wont happen again!Simply-the-truth (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
The WP:LEAD has been discussed extensively in the past. Harris's primary source of notability is is his 50-year show business career, which was wrecked by the 2014 convictions. There have been attempts to erase all of this in favour of saying "he is a paedo" or similar in the opening sentence, but this runs into problems with WP:DUE and WP:NPOV.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
agree with most Ian, but the subject wrecked his carear and achievmenst himslelf, so it must be covered in the lead imhoSimply-the-truth (talk) 20:40, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Two little boys[edit]

how was that NOT in the lead!! Obviously what this man has been found guilty of is disgusting imho, but I have to admit I love that song!Simply-the-truth (talk) 21:31, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

But Ghmyrtle is just getting silly now, that stairway to heaven was so so so bad! :)Simply-the-truth (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
and now we have Martinevans123 taking the Michael, with what he thinks are "essential" facts! lol. Try actually listening to it, then say its worth writing about!Simply-the-truth (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
You do realise, S-T-T, that the more jokey asides you write here, the less likely anyone is to take you seriously. It may be boring, but we are here to write an encyclopedia, not give personal opinions. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
In my opinion Harris's rendition of "Stairway to Heaven" was one of the highlights of his musical career and in a different league to the mawkish sentimental musical-hall trash of "Two Little Boys". But that is just my opinion. We still have to place "Two Little Boys" in the lead of this article as it was No.1 in the UK charts for six weeks. By the same token, however, any single which reaches No. 7 in the charts, like "Stairway to Heaven" did, deserves to have its peculiar instrumentation noted. We don't include items in articles on the basis of personal worth, but on the basis of factual notability. Unless you can grasp this basic concept, Wikipedia is probably not the place for you. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:18, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2017[edit]

Advertising[edit]

He featured in for many brands throughout the world including Irish meat company Denny (1986-1994), Toffee Crisp in 1990 and many more.--86.40.7.12 (talk) 18:40, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Not done You'd need to provide some sources. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC) p.s. Denny, the Irish meat company, does not yet have an article, and so that advert, whenever it was, is unlikely to be considered notable. Here he is emerging from a kangaroo pouch for Toffee Crisp, but I don't think this would be a suitable source.
It's true, here he is advertising Denny in 1991. However, it runs into problems with WP:DUE because it isn't very well known or sourced. The only product that is strongly associated with advertising is the Stylophone.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:21, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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Honours[edit]

It says that his MBE, OBE and CBE were removed. I understand his CBE was removed but does it mean the MBE and OBE were removed. Perhaps we can have clarity on this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.29.40 (talk) 00:09, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Good question. According to Order_of_the_British_Empire#Current_classes, I don't think that a person can be a CBE, OBE and MBE at the same time. They can be only one. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge of the byzantine British honours system can confirm this. According to this source, only the CBE was revoked in March 2015.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me)

His television adverts[edit]

He featured in many adverts for different brands in the world throughout time including Irish meats company Denny (1986-1994). --86.42.125.110 (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be an article about that company, so it's unclear if it is notable. Do you have any sources for Harris' involvement? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
See above Talk:Rolf_Harris#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_3_December_2017 with the same request. Unfortunately there isn't enough sourcing for this, although it is correct that he appeared in television commercials for Denny in Ireland.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 05:33, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Oh yes, it was the same wasn't it. And to think I used to enjoy a Toffee Crisp. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)