Talk:Romani people in Hungary

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Duplicated material[edit]

Косовска Митровица, the material you re-inserted is copied from the Hungary article and is duplicated within this article. There is no reason for the information to be presented twice. If you disagree with my edits, please feel free to discuss here rather than reverting. // Chris (complaints)(contribs) 18:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Chris I agree with your edits. Now the article is in better shape. Косовска Митровица (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Tone and style?[edit]

I'm not sure I agree that this article is in good shape at all - at least not the section before the list of Contents (and actually why is it before the list of Contents?). It is strongly POV (easy for "us" to criticize? easy for who?) and the tone is not encyclopaedic at all. There's plenty of good information in there but it's not currently written in an appropriate way. Tobycek (talk) 00:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian discrimination section vs. objectivity?[edit]

Guys, I visited the page because I was searching for actual useful information but what I found was a disaster. Obviously there is discrimination against the Roma/Gipsy people of Hungary, but the section looks like unconnected parts were copy-pasted from newspaper articles of faraway countries, full of sudden sketchy opinions and unsupported claims... Moreover, a large part of the section is not about the title at all - eg. parody is not discrimination, even if it contradicts good taste. Also, a lower percentage in higher education can have multiple contributors other than discrimination... Not really encyclopedia-like.


My suggestion is to rewrite the section somehow like the following:

0. First of all the title is a vast personal opinion and discrimination in itself. It is indeed common to talk about Hungarian vs. Roma conflict, but Roma often consider themselves as part of the Hungarian nation, and therefore talking about attitudes of the majority towards the Roma/Gipsy minorities would be much better. (To make myself understood, the current title sounds like "discrimination of Americans against black people", excluding the minority from the nation).

1. The legal status of the Roma/Gipsy should be made clear first, ie. that all citizens are equal by law, no ethnic group can be discriminated against by constitution, minorities are protected by different laws etc.. (For instance, all citizens have to fulfill the same condition to get into state-funded higher education, contrary to what the article suggests.)

2. Tensions between the majority and the Roma/Gipsy. Different cultural roots and therefore different social status. Typical views on each other.

3. Consequences of the differences and views. Actual discrimination can come here (a Roma person denied of a job interview because s/he is assumed to steal, etc..) For the general statements there should be reliable references. For particular stories it would be important to quote different opinions. (The current article generally suggests that the Hungarians in general, uniquely hate/discriminate Romas) The political acts of certain parties/individuals should be put in this context too.

I don't feel my knowledge would be enough to rewrite the section with proper references but I'm positive it shouldn't look like this... Comandanteej (talk) 16:29, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Discrimination?[edit]

Im sorry that you people cannot read this : http://nagyszenas.jobbik.hu/content/egy-tan%C3%A1r-tanuls%C3%A1gos-levele-cig%C3%A1ny-di%C3%A1kokr%C3%B3l-olvas%C3%B3i-lev%C3%A9l It is the experience of one teacher. They threaten the teacher so much, he or she wouldn't even dare to tell her name, not even the city, because there has been several cases where teachers have been beaten up for a kid failing at class. the parent's don't instruct their children to learn, they let them watch porn movies at the age of 6 at nighttime, and instead they are screaming at the teachers. They steal at the age of 6! One of them pees on another girls bag in class. Oh and the original Gipsy language doesn't contain a word corresponding tho the word: 'work'. That should explain a few things... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:630:201:F1F5:64B4:1D68:9394:6817 (talk) 09:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a joke. Majority of Roma people in Hungary don't want learn and work. 'Discrimination' of many Hungarians isn't racism, it's experience. Assimilated Roma people are valued member of the Hungarian society. Rovibroni

What about the crime they doing? I don't see anything about the problems. The "discrimination" is just a side-effect. The gipsies killed 39 people in 2007. 25 were Hungarian victim. Crime, terror, massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.149.150.252 (talk) 05:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is 100% US and roma are untouchable, writers from America have a romantic vision of the this people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.65.13 (talk) 16:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Discrimination[edit]

The discrimination of gipsies is called AFFIRMATIVE ACTION nowadays, i think. It is also known as POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION, afaik, and no matter what personal opinions, i.e. lies - and why - are expressed here, a student of gipsy *i personally do not see why it would be better for gipsies to be called romas, as a gipsy, i personally hate being called a euphemism* origin can now enroll to schools with LOWER ACHIEVEMENT scores than non-gipsies. Zolibacsi (talk) 10:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zolibacsi

Language[edit]

50% Romany language? It's false. 70% of Hungarian Roma people are Romungro (Magyarized Roma people). They speak only Hungarian. In 2001 91-92% of Hungarian Roma people speak only(!) Hungarian.[1] --Rovibroni (talk) 19:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality problems[edit]

This article has serious POV problems. The Gypsy point of view completely predominates, slanted language is used - especially the Hungarian discrimination and Romani exodus section, the point of view of Hungarians is not taken seriously: for example the section on gypsy crime and the "lack of debate regarding the subject". I'm not very familiar with the subject, so it would be best if someone with more knowledge tried to fix some of these problems. Kostja (talk) 10:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

so you have a proof that Roma people involment in "gypsy crime" is far much bigger than of the white hungarian crime.And please do not use term Gypsy because it is insulting,racist and derrogative name for Romani.If you continue to use that frase a will be forced to report you as a racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.246.54 (talk) 16:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Total nonsense, I've known many Hungarian Roma, and "Gypsy" is exactly how they all refer to their own ethnic group when speaking in English - it is not regarded as a derogatory term. The bigger problem is getting them to admit they are Roma/Gypsy at all - they know their ethnic group has a bad reputation and the name you call it will not change that. (This is also why you see the wildly varying population numbers - I would suggest the higher figures are correct.) The dynamics of the situation are complex - large numbers of Roma seem to make a conscious decision to assimilate and identify simply as Hungarian, especially within the major cities, whilst a rump remain left behind, living largely segregated lives in Roma villages and poorer "ghetto" districts of cities. These poorer and more deprived communities are where the "gypsy crime" originates from. The situation is similar to that of black people in America. Like America there are racists on one side and peddlers of politically correct bullshit on the other, both obstructing serious discussion of a genuine social problem. 82.8.181.40 (talk) 22:19, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

This article is a parody. Under "Hungarian discrimination against Roma" it lists things like gypsy crime, their poverty and school segregation, all of which is solely Gypsy fault and in fact they discriminate the majority. Segregation is just result of their low average intelligence which is largely innate, estimates are around IQ ~70.--Me ne frego (talk) 01:14, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

this text is written in the Nazi style[edit]

"There are problems related to the Romani minority in Hungary, and the very subject is a heated and disputed topic."

"Objective problems"

Obviously this text is written in the Nazi style ("the Jewish problem"). The text should be read carefully by a native English speaker, who should note the facts, and then re-write the whole article in a modern way. 188.157.230.192 (talk) 11:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I want to add that there are a lot of useful facts here, it's just written in a very out-of-date and foreign way. If no one else volunteers, and reading the above "Tone and Style" issues, I can offer to do it. 188.157.230.192 (talk) 11:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Fire ahead. Be bold! RashersTierney (talk) 11:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, first of all, the "Roma in Hungary" are Hungarian citizens, born in Hungary, and speak Hungarian fluently. So the article title itself is not written in idiomatic English, it would be like having an article "Negros in America" or "Jews in America" (the latter is a good example because Jewish people can also speak another language, Hebrew or Yiddish). Actually I just Googled "Jews in America" and we do have an article about it, it's called "American Jews" (and not "Jews in America"), thereby proving my point exactly. That article begins:
"American Jews, also known as Jewish Americans,[3] are American citizens or resident aliens of the Jewish faith and/or Jewish ethnicity."
By the same token,
1. The present article should be entitled "Romani Hungarians" (or "Hungarian Romani")
- or equivalently "Roma Hungarians" or "Hungarian Roma"
2. The present article could simply begin with the same sentence: '"Hungarian Roma, also known as Romani Hungarians, are Hungarian citizens or resident aliens of Roma descent."
If you would please make these two changes immediately, I will "be bold" as you suggest and improve the rest of the article.  ::: If, however, even these obvious changes cannot be made, I'm not going to waste my breath and someone with better connections has to do it. 188.157.230.192 (talk) 11:37, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and made the change to the first sentence. I just want to see if it will lead to some stupid edit war with a person who can't speak English properly and insists on the Nazi style. I don't know how to change the title of the article: can you please change it to "Hungarian Roma" in line with the reasoning above? 188.157.230.192 (talk) 11:42, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the article is intended to be only about Hungarian Roma, but also Roma from other countries in Hungary, per Romani people in Spain, Romani people in France and Roma in Greece - however there does appear to be some inconsistency accross the project and the matter certainly could be debated, perhaps at a centralised page. However, making your editing conditional on such a prior change isn't likely to be taken up. RashersTierney (talk) 11:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Fine, I'll just edit it. The article is about Roma who have Hungarian citizenship and speak Hungarian (this might be unclear from the present state of the article). Would you please change the article title while I edit? Thanks for your help. 188.157.230.192 (talk) 11:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I did what I could for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.157.230.192 (talk) 12:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I am a poor Hungarian, with little English,sorry, but I find it inconsistent, when the article says that there is political discrimination of romas, then the other part shows their political representation/roma autonomy, self governence. Hungary sent two roma deputies to the Eurpoean Parliament, (Viktória Mohácsi, Lívia Járóka). What is more - how interesting! - there are roma MPs in the Hungarian Parliament! Am I the only one, who found this a little bit confusing: on the one hand, they are discriminated politically, on the other hand they are represented, they have the right to speak, etc. (Please, note that, not the romani people sent these deputies to the EP - their political activity is low -, but the "gadzso" (romani expression for non romani, meaning "peasants, servants") voters, and their parties!).

And I really don't understand: why is it a discrimination, that they don't go to secondary school? It is not prohibited for them (c.f. afroamericans in the USA in the 1960's.)! The hungarian state provides them with schoolbooks, meals, etc - free of charge. There are many reasons, they don't go to secondary schools, as the article enumerates some of them.For example: teenage marriage is their nomadic tradition - lots of romani girls give birth at the age of 14. Shall we prohibit a part of their heritage? So this is strange too.

Seeing that there is a "Hungarian discrimination against Roma" article as well, shall I write an article on the Antidiscrimination activity of Hungary? I found the "Hungarian discrimination" title a little bit racist - I worked for an anti-discrimination governement agency for 3 years, I never discriminated anyone! --Ltbuni (talk) 00:55, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Roma culture[edit]

It would be positive to add a section about the contribution of Roma in Hungary to culture - perhaps especially music. I am not qualified to write this myself though I've seen many Roma Hungarian bands over the years. Kolya Gelsin (talk) 11:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

History[edit]

the history & discrimination sections seem quite incomplete to me - for example "During World War II, 28,000 Roma were killed in Hungary.[18" - does this mean that the Hungarian government avoided perpetrating Nazi genocide of gypsies rather more than they did for Hungarian Jews? were these 28,000 killed by the Nazis or fighting with Hungarian troops or killed as civilians in the bombardment of Hungarian cities or/

and what was the situation of gypsies under communism?

Kolya Gelsin (talk) 11:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Possible plagiarism[edit]

See Talk:Roma (Romani subgroup)#Possible plagiarism --Tgr (talk) 06:55, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Number of Roma people[edit]

The article originally states "Various estimations put the number of Roma people between 5 and 10 percent of the total population.". User Hortobagy has changed this to "Most estimations put the number of Roma people between 6 and 11 percent of the total population." by citing this [2]. However, this source talks about 7%, so it does not support the changes he made. That's why I have reverted it. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 17:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you want to start an edit war. You perfectly know that estimation are between 600,000 - 1,000,000 in Hungary which corresponds to 7-11% from 9,900,000 total population.Hortobagy (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Dear Hortobagy, I suggest that you should read more carefully our community rules, including WP:NOR. Do not refrain from adding information to any of the articles based on reliable sources, but please remember that Wikipedia is not the proper place to present our original research. Borsoka (talk) 20:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Hortobagy: WP articles should not be built upon what we think is true, but only on sourced material. I do not have any problem with changing those percentages, but you should provide valid, reliable sources. So far you have failed to provide sources which would support your edits. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 21:23, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
How many are them? After your sources? Hortobagy (talk) 05:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Officially (according to the latest census), about 3.2% of Hungarian citizens declared themselves Roma. However, this should only be treated as a lower estimate and there are many other estimates available. For example, this one [3] talks about 7%, and that one [4] talks about 8-10%. On the other hand, this [5] soruce talks about 5%. Thus, as you can see, various sources use different estimates. If you want to use the 11% as an upper estimate, then you should cite reliable sources which support this. Otherwise, the original percentages will be restored. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:40, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
10,5 % you can estimate as 11% isn't it right? Hortobagy (talk) 14:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
If you have sources which support your numbers, please, bring them forward. Otherwise, don't waste our time. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 14:51, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/sept2009/hungary-roma.html Hortobagy (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
The above source confirms the estimation of 10% (ten percent). Borsoka (talk) 15:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
But you know it's from 2009, today is 2013 and Roma in Hungary increased. Hungary's population decreased. Hortobagy (talk) 15:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Please read WP:NOR. Borsoka (talk) 15:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I put back the original sourced estimates, but of course, the issue can be reopened anytime, if reliable sources are provided. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 18:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPOV[edit]

Are we sure that a proper article on the Romas in Hungary must only concentrate on discrimination? Are we sure that an article can be written on them without referring to their history, culture or their role in the Hungarian culture, economy? I think this article should be rewritten based on reliable sources. I emphasize that discrimination against Roman is an existing problem in Hungary, therefore it should be properly presented. However, we should not discriminate a whole population by suggesting that their only role is to be subject of discrimination. Borsoka (talk) 11:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. Several data are missing or not properly presented, while the section about discrimination against Roma (which is certainly an existing problem) is a bit over-represented compared to the whole article. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
But you can only do a separate article like discrimination against Roma people in Hungary Hortobagy (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
What happened to the discrimination against Roma people in Hungary? Can we open a discussion here about what this article must contain?--Ltbuni (talk) 21:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

New sources for the article[edit]

I think that this is a rather important article. However most of it only contains events, or grievances, but not structural analysis. I think we should upgrade it ASAP. Seeing that almost every single effort incited harsh reaction (deletion and calling others names) on both side (pro- and anti-roma), I would like to invite the editors concerned to have a discussion about the possible new content of the article. I am not against description of events, so I don't want to delete anything, but I propose, that the following things/issues must be in or must be detailed more in the article:

1. Racist crimes, murders, hate speech against the Romani, the judicial procedure against the accused persons

II. State policy towards minorities on national and on EU-level

III. Situation of Romani in Hungary

IV. The so-called gypsy crime: the notion / what the others see as gypsy crime

Opinion? Other sources? --Ltbuni (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

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Violence Against Ethnic Majority[edit]

The article currently contains a section titled, "Romani violence against the ethnic majority," which consists entirely of this passage:

On October 15, 2006 Roma mob lynched an ethnic Hungarian teacher in front of his two daughters in the village of Olaszliszka.

Beyond the obvious problems with this sentence (its faulty English grammar and misrepresentation of the event, which was not carried out by a mob, but rather the family of a girl who had been brushed by the teacher's car), I wonder why it is included in this article. Is this article a list of individual crimes committed by Romani people in Hungary? And why is there an entire section entitled "Romani violence against the ethnic majority"? Does one particular incident constitute a pattern of violence against the Magyar majority? This section, "Romani violence against the ethnic majority," strikes me as purely inflammatory, and it doesn't add anything to the article, which is broadly about Romani People in Hungary, not a compendium of every event that has ever involved a Romani person in Hungary.

I've tried to remove the passage, but I've been reverted twice, without the reverters giving a rationale as to why the passage belongs in the article. So, why does this one particular crime deserve an entire section in an article that broadly covers Romani People in Hungary, and why is the section title, "Romani violence against the ethnic majority," appropriate? -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:34, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I see that Borsoka has reshuffled the relevant section, removing the subsection headings and placing the sentence about the Hungarian school teacher above the paragraphs about violence against Romani people. Unfortunately, that sentence has gotten even more mangled in the process. I'm still not sure why it's even in the article. Why are we mentioning this one particular crime? -Thucydides411 (talk) 03:15, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I do not understand your above remark. Why do you think it should not be mentioned? Borsoka (talk) 04:42, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry Borsoka, but you'll have to try harder than that. Don't revert my edits again without first discussing here. I'm putting back the subtitle, and then you can engage here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:27, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Why do you think that a serial killing against six Romani is much more important, which has to appear in this article, while a lynching of a Hungarian teacher by a Romani mob (not only the family, anyway...) is marginal. Plase, consider your double standard. Just an example, I am using your "argument": "So, why does this one particular crime deserve an entire section in an article that broadly covers Romani People in Hungary, and why is the section title, "Violence against Romani people," appropriate?" Both crimes are notable (most notorious) events and well covered by media. For instance, a play even based on the Olaszliszka murder, first published in 2015. --Norden1990 (talk) 22:06, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Norden1990, the reason why the section on violence against Romani people is appropriate in this article is that there is a significant history in Hungary of racism and violence against Romani people. The serial killings perpetrated by organized fascist gangs, covered in the article, are just a part of that history. That history is significant enough that it warrants inclusion in an article that generally discusses Romani people in Hungary. However, a single crime committed by a small number of Romani people in Hungary is not significant enough to be in an article that broadly discusses Romani People in Hungary. To give a comparable situation, we might expect an article on the Jews in Russia to discuss the pogroms, but not to list one particular crime one Jewish person once perpetrated. Violence against Romani people by far-right elements has been a major issue in Hungary, which is why it merits inclusion in this article. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:01, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
You may not know, but that "single crime" caused a real shock in the Hungarian society in 2006: the teacher was murdered because he hit a Romani girl (who, thanks to God, survived the accident). Sorry, I do not understand your reference to the progroms against Jewish people in Russia. Do you think that thousands of Romani people have been murdered during organized progroms almost each decade of the last 300 years in Hungary? If you think that this is the case, you should read some books about the history of the Romani people before editing articles relating to them. Borsoka (talk) 08:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
Borsoka, I think you understand my analogy with an article on Jews in Russia perfectly. I think it's a show of bad faith to constantly claim not to understand my posts. Again, you'll have to explain why you think this particular crime (yes, a "single crime") deserves space in an article that broadly covers Romani people in Hungary, and why the heading "Romani Violence against the Ethnic Majority" deserves a subsection heading. Is that a phenomenon that is significant enough to merit a subsection in this article? It looks like it's simply been shoved into the article as some sort of counterweight to the section, "Violence against Romani People." But the single crime included under the heading doesn't merit its own section. I'd also like to point out, for the third time, that the article describes that crime using a completely ungrammatical sentence. -Thucydides411 (talk) 06:55, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
(1) Sorry, I think, bad faith can only be demonstrated on your side. No, I did not understand your analogy. Your comparison demonstrates that your knowledge both of the history of Jews in Russia and of the history of Romani people in Hungary is highly limited. (2) I have not stated that the heading "Romani violence against the Ethnic Majority" should be preserved. I only stated, that specific crime should be mentioned, because it caused a real shock in the Hungarian society. Borsoka (talk) 07:57, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Okay, I'll go ahead and remove the second heading then. If you want to mention the crime against the schoolteacher, then you should do two things:
1. Find a better place for it in the article. It doesn't belong in the section about anti-Roma violence.
2. Fix the grammar of the sentence.
And for the record, I think my analogy with Jews in Russia was entirely clear. Do you not agree with it, or do you really not understand it? There's an important distinction there.
-Thucydides411 (talk) 18:14, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Just for the record. Yes, your analogy with Jews in Russia clearly demonstrates that your knowledge on the subject is limited. Please try to find a consensus before removing text from the article. Borsoka (talk) 02:33, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Look Borsoka, you can think whatever you'd like about my knowledge of the subject. It's irrelevant to the discussion here. As for removing the heading, "Romani violence against the ethnic majority," you yourself said you're not advocating it be preserved. Since you don't care for its preservation, since neither you nor Norden1990 have articulated a reason for having that subheading, and since it's a racially inflammatory subheading, I've removed it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Violence[edit]

I don't understand why "Violence between Romani and the majority" title was reverted - the most neutral title possible...--Ltbuni (talk) 11:54, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I reverted it because it's a POV title. You inserted it because you don't like mention of anti-Roma discrimination. There is a long history of anti-Roma violence in Hungary, which you're trying to relativize by including every instance of a Romani person committing violence that you can. You've inserted a number of individual crimes committed by Romani people, moved them to the top of the section, and then changed the title of the section. This is all overtly POV editing. Wikipedia isn't the place for you to play out your political fights. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
That was chronological order, that is why I added them on the top....!!! An article should cover the widest scope possible of the facts. There is the phenomenon of tension between majority and Romani. It is a sociological fact. What is more: both sides suffer from it. What You suggest doing, is ignoring one side of the story. What do You propose, in which article should we insert these facts, You feel irrelevant here? Should we drop the Romani Self-Governement, EP -members as well, because it does not fit in Your perception? --Ltbuni (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
Ltbuni, you've made numerous posts now across Wikipedia about your political objective in editing here. You frankly shouldn't be editing on topics that you're unwilling to approach neutrally, and that includes Hungarian-politics-related articles. Combined with your blatant canvassing, you're way out of line here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
You are not in a position to decide who can or can not edit Wikipedia. So drop Your Social Justic Warrior attitude and try to understand other people's point of View. --Ltbuni (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Notability in Violence Section[edit]

The violence section should deal with the general issue of violence, rather than being a list of every act of violence ever committed against or by a Romani person. To that end, for each of the incidents raised in the article, editors should show below why they are notable, in a general sense. I fear that the section, as written, is just a tit-for-tat list, where if some editors include a violent incident against Romani people, other editors feel the need to find violent incidents by Romani people against Magyars in order to balance out the section. But do all of these incidents belong here? Are they all notable and relevant to the general subject of Romani people in Hungary? -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:03, 26 December 2016 (UTC)