|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rosicrucianism article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Rosicrucianism is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.|
|Rosicrucianism has been listed as a level-4 vital article in Philosophy. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as Start-Class.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 A reference to the Rosecrucians in J. Locke's Essay
- 2 what does this sentence mean?
- 3 from the page - this is too general
- 4 Concepts
- 5 Material I've just removed from 1313
- 6 Martin Luther's Seal - Removal Request
- 7 A little vague
- 8 Merrifield
- 9 David Stevenson
- 10 Possible source of the text
- 11 See also
- 12 Misnamed article
- 13 Invisible College
- 14 Bocetes no bueno
A reference to the Rosecrucians in J. Locke's Essay
Locke refers to the Rosecrucians in his Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Book II, Chapter I, Section 19. Perhaps this should get a mention in this entry?
Locke wrote, "This some may suspect to be a step beyond the Rosecrucians; it seeming easier to make ones self invisible to others, than to make another's thoughts visible to me, what are not visible to himself."
The context of the quote is Locke arguing against the view that the soul always thinks. Specifically, he is arguing that, for one man to say that he knows that another man was always thinking during a sleep, even though the other man has no recollection of thinking (or dreaming) in that sleep, is more mysterious than the Rosecrucians making themselves invisible to others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 16:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
what does this sentence mean?
- Syntax suggests writer may not be a native English speaker. Perhaps the intended word was "vehiculated," which has some specific scientific uses. *My opinion: The writer meant to say that René Guénon conveys this same idea in some of his works. Brlittle (talk) 16:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
from the page - this is too general
Note: One of this pages moderators can sort this out. I think that the Rose Cross symbol from the Byzantine 'Herbaville Triptych' used by the Templars? is earlier than Dante's Divine Comedy which is often considered the source of Rosicrucianism. Some one can investigate if they like - Jean de Cabalis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Note: Okay, FYI "The Elder Brothers of the Rose-Croix (Les Freres Aînés de la Rose-Croix) (FARC) still operating, see http://www.haguratelier.com/ FARC so named by Roger Caro, the French alchemist, as a continuation of various Templar and Catholic transmissions - Jean de Cabalis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 08:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Alchemy, astrology and healing
Alchemy (the ancestor of modern chemistry), is often thought to mean the science of creating gold from base metals. The true alchemists, or philosophers of the fire, often disparagingly refer to people attempting such a feat as blowers, meaning all those who were simply interested in the creation of gold and the purely material aspects of alchemy.
In his laboratory, the alchemist works on the materia prima and uses, among other tools, a furnace called an athanor. In Spiritual Alchemy, the materia prima is the human soul, and the athanor is the physical body and the subtle bodies. The latter maintain the life of the most dense one and assure the connection with the soul. The laboratory is human existence during which the soul can learn to perfect itself, achieving the transmutation of vices and defects (the vile metal) into virtues and qualities.
The first Rosicrucians practiced alchemy in the laboratory, which was in vogue at that epoch, of interest even to popes and kings. The Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz is a major written work which clearly makes reference to this work. Current-day Rosicrucianists direct their concentration toward the work of spiritual alchemy. Many people put modern Freemasons, who do not construct cathedrals anymore, in this category.
According to the early Manifestoes, the Rosicrucians were a "secret" Order. Their members believed or could demonstrate healing powers that were seen as a gift from God: Spiritual Healing. In the outer orders these powers were explained by Egyptian mysteries and again, differently in the hermetic Order. Members were admitted on this basis alone and the "membership" was very selective. The writers, philosophers and people of the time became curious and infuriated because they were excluded. Most of the writings of the time are biased or speculative for this reason. Many modern Rosicrucian organizations hold the belief that these God-given powers may be used to help others.
Some interpretations are described as being Rosicrucian. They are used as an idea or icon by persons or groups either Gnostic Christian or syncretists who use a great deal of Christian elements. An example would be a cult that centers on the Virgin Mary yet openly or secretly identifies her to the Virgo constellation of the Zodiac.
Some modern Rosicrucians believe in the study of Spiritual Astrology as a key to the Spirit, to aid spiritual development and self-knowledge, as well as an aid to healing through Astro-Diagnosis.. While other groups may respect Astrology, it is not a focus of their Rosicrucian work.
A way through which the alchemical work on the "Path of Initiation" has been expressed to the world, according to occultists such as Corinne Heline (1882-1975), is through classical music. To wit, the nine symphonies of Beethoven (1770-1827) were divided into two groups. The first, the third, the fifth, and the seventh are vigorous, powerful and of command, representing the intellect. The second, the fourth, the sixth and the eighth are elegant, ternurent, gracious and beautiful, representing the heart (intuition). They culminate in the symphony with human voices, the ninth symphony, in which the equilibrium between mind and heart or the "Chymical Wedding" ritual, where the Christ Within – the Adept – is born ("consumatun est"). Johan Herde speaks of Beethoven as "... God acts on earth through evolved men..." and Beethoven speaks of himself as "... I do not have friends, that is why I must live alone, but I know from the deepest of my heart, that God is closer to me than to others. I come close to Him without fear, because I have always known Him...".
Rebirth versus transmigration
Some interpretations by practitioners of eastern religions state that the reincarnation process in mankind could happen in an interchangeable way with the animal, plant (and sometimes even mineral) kingdoms ; this theory is called transmigration or metempsychosis.
However, according to the Rosicrucians, as stated in the Western Wisdom Teachings, the eastern sacred teachings do not support an inferred belief in transmigration; meaning that, according to this western mystery tradition, each life wave has an independent evolution process and each one of these life waves is at a different stage in the evolutionary path. For example, according to the Rosicrucians, mineral life is the first and lowest level of spiritual evolution on earth; then comes plants, with actual life, then cold-blooded animals, then warm-blooded, and finally humans. This is also taught in The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception. In practice, the beings belonging to each life wave either evolve through the work of the individual Spirit or are yet evolving under a group spirit, have a different state of consciousness, and have acquired more or less subtle bodies, according to the development stage of each life wave.
The eastern sacred text Kathopanishad refers in Chapter 5, Verse 9, that some of the souls, according to their deeds, return to the womb to be reborn, but others go into "the motionless" (Sanskrit word "STHANU", meaning "pillar"); allegedly the same concept is claimed to be found in the Bible (Book of Revelation) that mentions: "Him that overcometh, I will make a pillar in the house of my God, thence he shall no more go out." However, orthodox Christian biblical theologians dispute that application and reject any connection between the symbology of the Bible and occult teachings in any form. Rosicrucians interpret both references with the meaning that when humanity has reached perfection, there will come a time when they will not be tied to the wheel of births and deaths, but will remain in the invisible worlds to work thence for the upliftment of other beings. This too is another concept taught by occultists, but one which orthodox Christian biblical theologians regard as explicitly representing the "spirit of antichrist" from the epistles of the apostle John (1 and 2 John); yet it is perceived, by pupils and students dwelling into this western mystery tradition who have been described as "undaunted spirits who refuse to be fettered by either orthodox science or orthodox religion", that men and women having a pure mind and a noble heart may see these same Esoteric Christian teachings as coming from the "Spirit of truth" mentioned in John 16:12-15.
Last, if one takes into account the existence of earlier epochs in the development of human beings - as described also by the Theosophy and interpreted also as being mentioned in a veiled form in sacred eastern and western religious writings and by earlier philosophers (e.g Plato) - then, only at the current Aryan Epoch, the fifth one, it has started the event 'death' as we are conscious of it (not the death process of the physical-biological body itself, but the full awareness of the physical death event, with man having simultaneously lost the awaken awareness, or the inner contact, of the spiritual worlds). This conception, together with other related factors theorises that the entire rebirth process (i.e. during the activity period between two physical lifes), which works through the individual accountability for his own deeds, is a recent process when seen from the perspective of the whole human evolutionary scheme till now (including the long involutionary period and the "recently" started evolutionary one).
- "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change".
The philosophical interpretation of Sacred verses may vary widely since such texts are directed to the higher or inner consciousness of the individual along his path of spiritual unfoldment. As such, quotations as this one may not even be a direct reference to transmigration, or to rebirth, but a reference to the process of transference to a subtle body occurring at the event death - described not only in esoteric teachings, but also in near-death experiences - and the consequent change in one' state of perception (not to be confounded with a literal change to a higher state of consciousness or awareness).
Preservation period after death
Some Rosicrucian groups practice methods of caring for the dead, regarding death as a birth into the spiritual worlds which should be prepared for with the greatest care, requires a "post mortem interval", or preservation period, of the physical body for three and half days (84 hours), for life review purpose (in a pacific death; not in a sudden impact such as: shock, accident, catastrophe, heart attack or suicide), before cremation or any other way of body disposal.. Other groups do not specify such methods, leaving this up to individual members for their own cultural practices.
Someone added a mention of Rosicrucianism to the 1313 page that covers historical events in that year. Then someone else added a note to the effect that the Rosicrucian self-narrative is not regarded as historically correct, and someone else wanted the note to be wikified. So I found the 1313 page in the articles needing wikification. I just took out all the reference to Rosicrucianism and have moved the reference and note here for your information. I'll also leave a message on the fringe theories noticeboard. You can refer to the history of 1313 for who said what.
Addition to 1313
- The Order of the Rose Cross (Rosicrucian Order) is originally founded, according to the Rosicrucian Fellowship. According to major occult writers, this Order was for the first time expounded in Dante's The Divine Comedy (1308–1321) Dante Alighieri himself a member of a Templar Order called 'La Fede Santa'. (see references). This Order has been referred to as 'Reres Aines de la Rose+Croix' the 'Elder Brothers of the Rose Croix' by various. Reputedly the Order founded by Gaston de la Pierre Phoebus as an esoteric Templar Order successions the French House of 'De Lusignan' Ref's Jeremiah Hackett's Roger Bacon: His Life, Career and Works and Roger Caro's Legenda des Freres Aines de la Rose Croix.
Note from another editor
NOTE: Roger Caro's 'Freres Aines de la Rose-Croix' group has since been found to have no tangible history going back further than the late 1960s, when Caro first developed the idea of the group with the cooperation of a Templar researcher and gnostic priest named Forest Barber and with the assistance of Philippe de Cherisey of 'Priory of Sion' fame.
Researcher Timothy Carmain in 13 October 2004 on the 'Grailseekers' MSN group detailed how his grandfather, Jack Duese, had agreed to act as one of Caro's purported grand masters - for the period from 1916-69, when he supposedly received the honour from an 'A.Croweey' (presumably Aleister Crowley).
Duese also possessed certain family documents from the 17th century detailing the transfer of tax exemption rights down through the centuries - these were interspersed with forged esoteric documents to give the impression that what was being handed down was not mundane tax concessions, but a Templar lineage. The documents were shown at a convention of fringe occultists at Liege, Belgium, in 1973 and the FAR+C was launched.
Ergo so called 'historical figures' like Gaston de la Pierre Phoebus have no basis. As Carmain recounts
'Names of historical persons from whom land and usage rights were acquired were turned into "Templar hermeticists" like "Gaston de la Pierre Phoebus", who was in fact Count Gaston II of Foix, father of Gaston III "Phoebus" - hence "Gaston, le pere de Phoebus". '
An explanation to the above issues, correctly raised by editor Itsmejudith and a previous anon editor, was recently provided at the discussion page of Wikiarticle 1313; the initial-original content was restored in a manner that i hope to be more clarifying to the readers. Tx! --188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Martin Luther's Seal - Removal Request
I do not think Martin Luther's Seal should appear without adequate explanation/evidence. The Rosicrucian Rose, although similar to Luther's, appears over 100 years after Luther's. Luther's seal is different, whereas Luther's colors are different, as is the heart a different shape. Martin Luther also explained, in writing, a thorough interpertation of his seal, which has nothing at all to do with Rosicrucianism. The whole connection uses "Davinci Code"-esque conspiracy theory type logic. I'll see if anyone else agrees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ModestMouse2 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
As a response to this, I will leave a Martin Luther quote: From Martin Luther's 'Table talk' in Lyndy Abraham's 'Dictionary of alchemical imagery'.
"The science of alchymy I like very well, and indeed, 'tis the philosophy of the ancients. I like it not only for the profits it brings in melting metals, in decocting, preparing, extracting and distilling herbs, roots; I like it also for the sake of the allegory and secret signification, which is exceedingly fine, touching the resurrection of the dead at the last day."184.108.40.206 (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- And to finish the above quote from Luther so it's not taken out of context, "For, as in a furnace the fire extracts and separates from a substance the other protions, and carries upward the spirit, the life, the sap, the strength, while the unclean matter, the dregs, remain at the bottom, like a dead and worthless carcass; even so God, at the day of judgement, will seperate all things through fire, the righteous from the ungodly. The Christians and righteous shall ascend upwards into heavan, and there live everlastingly, but the wicked and the ungodly, as the dross and filth, shall remain in hell, and there be damned."ModestMouse2 (talk)
A little vague
This article is EXCELLENT when it comes to detailing this history, but personally, I was more interested in the specific philosophies and beliefs of this group, and what defines them, their core tenets. Its a very nice article, I just thought I'd add my suggestions. --Pstanton (talk) 03:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I am a little at a loss to understand why Uirdhein in the edit of 02:08, 12 November 2006 added to the list of publications/sources the citation to: Merrifield, Mary P. (2004) The Art of Fresco Painting in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance Dover Publications, which was originally published in 1846 as The art of fresco painting, as practiced by the old Italian and Spanish masters with a preliminary inquiry into the nature of the colours used in fresco painting C. Gilpin, London. Uirdhein only made two edits, this one and one that appears to be spurious under frescos. Merrifield's book is available full text from Google books, here. I did not find any references to Rosicrucianism or other key words pertinent to this article. I have removed the citation. If anyone has a pinpoint citation to an important fact, they can always place it in an appropriate note. --Bejnar (talk) 06:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
If David Stevenson's ideas on the possible influence of Rosicrucianism on 17th century Freemasonry in Scotland are to be included, I'd suggest that we should source them directly to his book, The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland’s Century 1590-1710 (Cambridge University Press, 1988), rather than to a review of the book on the Contra Mundum website  as at present. The reviewer for Contra Mundum seems to hold strong Reformed views on Freemasonry, and may not be the best source for Stevenson's thoughts on Rosicrucianism. Furthermore, it is over 20 years since the Stevenson book cited, and we would do well to expand upon how subsequent scholarship in this area has confirmed or contradicted those initial findings. Regards, Carminowe of Hendra (talk) 22:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think Stevenson is outdated, and some newer material needs to be referenced in his stead. By the way, the statement previous (also made by Stevenson) about Rosicrucianism being Lutheran appears to be a side note, but I would think it would be an obvious result given the religious climate. Therefore, it's really pretty major and needs to come from somewhere else other than a book review. MSJapan (talk) 23:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Possible source of the text
The text can be found at the bottom of this page:
Most probably the Wikipedia text is copied from the other Internet page. Is it right to copy text into Wikipedia in this way? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 08:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
This article is "History of Rosicrucianism." Nothing in this article actually describes the organization or beliefs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 22:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The article Invisible College concentrates on the actual history around Robert Boyle's verifiable associations. In terms of contemporary history - revisionist - what is said in this article is problematic. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:16, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Bocetes no bueno
Please provide a translation for bocetes used in the last paragraph of section "Rose-Cross Degrees in Freemasonry". Google translate knows nothing of such a term, in either Portuguese or Spanish. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 12:39, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
- Rosicrucianism: Alchemical philosophical texts of 17th century from Alchemy web site
- Further study: Anes, José Manuel, PhD, 33º. Scottish Rite, Os Jardins Iniciáticos da Quinta da Regaleira, Ed. Ésquilo, Lisbon, Nov. 2005
- See online Spiritual Astrology library by The Rosicrucian Fellowship
- Cited by Corinne Heline in Beethoven's Nine Symphonies (1963), New Age Bible & Philosophy Center, Sta. Monica - CA
- Reincarnation and Samsara by Heart of Hinduism
- Diagram The Four Kingdoms by Max Heindel
- Diagram The Consciousness of the Four Kingdoms by Max Heindel
- Diagram The Vehicles of the Four Kingdoms by Max Heindel
- Weber, Charles, Rosicrucianism and Christianity in Rays from the Rose Cross, 1995
- Heindel, Max (1909), The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception, p.519
- Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, texts 12-13
- Article The Rosicrucian Method of Caring for the Dead by The Rosicrucian Fellowship