|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Rudi Dutschke article.|
|WikiProject Biography / Politics and Government / Science and Academia||(Rated C-class)|
|WikiProject Germany||(Rated C-class, High-importance)|
I am having a hard time translating this quote, Dutschke's diary entry from Easter 1963, from the German version of this article. Perhaps someone can help with the second sentence:
"Jesus ist auferstanden, Freude und Dankbarkeit sind die Begleiter dieses Tages; die Revolution, die entscheidende Revolution der Weltgeschichte ist geschehen, die Revolution der Welt durch die alles überwindende Liebe. Nähmen die Menschen voll die offenbarte Liebe im Für-sich-Sein an, die Wirklichkeit des Jetzt, die Logik des Wahnsinns könnte nicht mehr weiterbestehen"
--Erauch 04:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(sorry for the late reply) the 2nd sentence means about this: "If all people accepted this love (of Jesus), this reality (and) the logic of madness wouldn't continue to exist" (clem 07:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC))
- Even later: A better translation - even if not quite idiomatic - might be: "if people accepted fully the manifested love for its own sake, the current reality (and) the logic of madness could not exist anymore." --188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Assassination and "culprit"
"...a young unskilled worker who was influenced by the massive propaganda campaign of the mass media owned by Axel Springer..." -
I agree with the content, but it sounds a lot like POV to me - where's the proof, references that this was the case? (clem 07:32, 12 August 2005 (UTC))
I wholeheartedly agree. Somewhat biased. More suitable for the Tageszeitung, nicht?
- I have found an article in The Nation, which corroborates this. The evidence presented at the trial of Josef Bachmann also tends to corroborate the allegation. However, I've not named Bachmann in the article. I've also stated that this was a widespread belief among radical students and that it led to street-fighting in many German cities, which I think is relevant information, since it shows how important people considered Dutschke to be. --Mia-etol (talk) 23:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Rudi Dutschke's name; role of Springer Press in assassination
Being Rudi Dutschke's wife I have his birth certificate and thus his birth name, Alfred Willi Rudi Dutschke. His name was never Rudolf. At the trial against Joseph Bachmann, the main argument of the lawyer Horst Mahler was that it was not so much Bachmann, but rather the Springer Press that was guilty in the assasination. I do not have the documents from that trial, but they must be available for anyone interested in that question.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by GretchenD (talk • contribs) 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Is there a way that you could make this information verifiable for us by providing a source we can access? The German article also has "Rudolf". Kusma (討論) 00:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I have published this information in my book about Rudi Dutschke called Rudi Dutschke: Wir hatten ein barbarisches, schoenes Leben by Gretchen Dutschke published 1996 in Koeln. I have changed Rudi's name in the German article a number of times but someone always puts it back. I'll try again.
// Hello all,
I just checked book catalogues online. That book apparently appeared in two edtions, first by Knaur publishers (German article) in München ("Munich" by English tongues) in 1998, and then by Kipenheuer & Witsch publishers (German article) in Köln ("Cologne") in 2007; both times with 511 pages. Both are large well-known publishers in large German cities. It is also available at quite a number of large libraries (including University libraries) in various regions of Germany, as well as in Austria, France and Britain (yes, I DID check the European catalogue network myself just now, so that isn't based on hear-say). So it seems to be a reliable and available source of information and hence meet your requirements.
The author even has a small article about herself on German Wikipedia (German article on Gretchen Dutschke). Her books are also offered by online book sellers' catalogues in Germany, where one can find them described.
PHOTOS OF RUDI DUTSCHKE
A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO I put several photos of Rudi Dutschke which I took myself in the Wikipedia photo archive. One of them was also on the Rudi Dutschke page. They seem to all have been removed. Please return them to the archive and the one that was on the RD page should be returned to the page. These photos were taken by myself and I explicitely gave WIKIPEDIA the right to use them when I put them in the archive. They should not have been removed.
I have deleted references to Dutschke's role in the founding of the Green Party. There is only one short paragraph to support the claim, and it is nonsensical.
"Rudi Dutschke recovered almost sufficiently [sic] to play an essential role in the 1980 formation of the Green Party of Germany by convincing the former student protesters (including Joschka Fischer) to join the Green movement. As a result in October, 1979 the Greens were able to reach the 5% limit required to obtain parliamentary seats in the Bremen provincial election."
This passage has the Greens winning seats (1979) before it was formed (1980).
"...recovered almost sufficiently to play an esential role"? "Almost sufficiently " means that he did not recover sufficiently.
Also, there is no citation for the assertion that Dutschke "convinced" student protesters. The way it is written this passage does not at all support the assertion made at the top, that Dutschke "was one of the founding members of the Green Party of Germany."
If one wishes to re-assert Dutschke role as a "founder" of the Green Party, please provide valid support: get the dates straight and cite sources.
Additionally, the article contains unsourced POV, which has been marked by citation tags. This is an article, not a eulogy.
— J M Rice 19:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Hello, Mr/Mrs Rice.
I have not written any part of that article, nor am I a party member, employee or activist.
Your problem is easy to solve: The facts are stated correctly, taken one by one, but the order in which they appear above is confusing. "The Greens" started as a somewhat loose federation of activists. They organized themselves in steps. So they could take part in a local election early. In 1979 they apparently managed to actually win seats in an assembly (the so-called "5% hurdle" in German elections) for the first time. They also took part in a European parlament election pre-1980 ('just read that in the German WP article about the party). Inspired by growing support they then took the decisive step to officially form the federal party ("Bundespartei" in German) at the date mentioned.
I added a few links to the statement above, for easier reference by all interested readers.
The "almost..." apparently simply was a linguistic mistake by a non-native speaker of English.
That Rudi Dutschke was an important mind behind the formation of the party is, I understand, common knowledge (among people interested in the matter) in Germany today. I don't have a reference at hand (and one in which language would do the job IYO ?); politics is not a major field of interest of mine, and I was a minor in those days, and only "stumbled" into this article-cum-discussion a few minutes ago.
Also, could you specify what portions of the article you object to and want to have changed or references added to ? (I agree that in general many use WP for advertising purposes of all sorts; in this case, I haven't even read the whole piece yet.) That may make it easier for others interested in the matter to contribute in a constructive way.
Press role in precipitating assassination
I was present in Berlin as a student from February 13, 1968 and was paying attention to political events and media coverage. Shortly before the assassination attack, I think in March, an "Aushang" or advertising poster appeared on newspaper kiosks throughout Berlin (well, I saw many), purporting to be an enlargement of the current headline on a tabloid-like magazine, [Deutsche?] National- und Soldaten-zeitung, in at least 5 cm.-high letters, which you could see half a block away:
- Stoppt Dutschke jetzt -- sonst Bũrgerkrieg!
Bũrgerkrieg means "civil war." I do not know this publication to have been affiliated directly with the Axel Springer Verlag, but the latter was said to control 80% of the newspaper circulation in Berlin and presumably had some sort of veto power over anything that appeared on the kiosks.
On April 4 the news arrived of the killing of Dr. Martin Luther King. That is believed by some to have precipitated a "copy-cat" act (April 11) by Bachmann (age 25) who was reputed to have a Hitler portrait on his wall. He later sent an apology to Gretchen Dutschke and then committed suicide.
I am enough of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if someone in West Germany hadn't urged forces in the U.S. to "move" on King, on the speculation that it would nudge a suggestionable character to "help take care of Germany's problem" similarly. After the attack on Dutschke, the CDU-CSU majority in the Bundestag-- opportunistically?-- pressed for passage of Notstandsgesetze-- emergency laws-- written in such a way as to suppress student protests!
This was one of the most interesting proposals of the SDS under Dutschke. German professors have been notoriously domineering in the classroom-- or more often lecture hall, and were accused by progressive students of pushing a "wertfreie Wissenschaft" -- valuefree technology, i.e. dry didactic information or skills useful to a corporate employer, without concern for social justice (let alone the environment, the Greens addressed that later).
Dutschke's organization set up a network of students who formed alternate teaching groups, generally located in a nearby apartment, where students from a certain lecture course could meet, review and criticize the teaching of the professor.
The demented assassin in April 1968 apparently got the job done, for after brief student rallies (surrounding the brown glass Springer skyscraper poised at the Wall like a crusader or chesspiece ready to spring into the east), intimidation gradually set in and the "kritische Universität" idea faded away.Tokerdesigner (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Rudi and the Springer presse
Every time I've come across the name 'Rudi Dutsche' I've also come across some references to the newspapers owned by Springer. While I can see on this discussion page that there are different views on whether or not they actually contributed to the assault on Rudi, there seems to be strong public opions on the matter. This article should include some of the things that have been said on the springer-dutsche relationship, and of course both sides (atticles, books, whatever). Not including any information on the subject whatsoever is just confusing. Anyone, preferably german, who feel up to the task of assembling some balanced information on the matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)