Talk:Rwandan genocide

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Former good article nominee Rwandan genocide was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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February 28, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of February 28, 2007.
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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Rwandan genocide:

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    France as perpetrator[edit]

    There is an issue currently with the list of "perpetrators" in the infobox on this article. 50.101.244.184 has inserted three times now, the inclusion of France in the list. This has already been discussed above, and I believe the consensus there is that it is WP:UNDUE to include an assertion that France participated in the genocide. Some sources in Rwanda have been known to assert that, for example [1], but the vast majority of reliable sources do not include France as a direct participant in the genocide. Many more sources do accuse France of assisting the regime or failing to act, but that's a different question, and would not merit inclusion in the "perpetrators".

    As far as I am concerned this is a fairly straightforward case, the inclusion of France is unsourced and violates WP:NPOV, but I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I'm bringing the issue here for discussion. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:53, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

    Number of death people in genocide , something cant be correct[edit]

    The article says, that up to 1 million people were killed in 1994. So why did the population jut drop for 60.000 from 1994 to 1995 The shrinking of population number already begun 1990.

    1990: 7,2147 Mil Einwohner

    1991: 6,9737 Mil Einwohner

    1992: 6,5451 Mil Einwohner

    1993: 6,0663 Mil einwohner

    1994: 5,7285 Mil Einwohner

    1995: 5,6638 Mil Einwohner

    So the polulation dropped altogether 1,6 million or 21 percent from 1990 to 1995,but the year,where the genocide happened, it just dropped 60 thousand. Can there be a fitting reason for that, or is something wrong about the whole story?

    Source of my numbers is the Worldbank:

    [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.47.174 (talkcontribs) 10:56, 14 April 2015

    Data is not complete, it uses estimates when actual data is not available. David C 15:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
    @85.176.47.174: I'd have to check the exact numbers to figure out what's going on, but one possible reason why the actual population may not have actually dipped much in that period is that as the RPF took control of the country, a large number of Tutsi refugees, who had been living in Uganda for 30+ years, returned to Rwanda and settled in the areas won by the RPF. This influx may have been enough to offset the numbers killed. I'll have a bit more of a look at the figures later on. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

    The segment "Death toll" says:

    Out of a population of 7.3 million people–84% of whom were Hutu, 15% Tutsi and 1% Twa–the official figures published by the Rwandan government estimated the number of victims of the genocide to be 1,174,000 in 100 days

    According to Worldbank ,7.3 million is indeed nearly the population of 1989, not the number from 1994 before the genocid officially started. So either the numbers of the Worldbank are wrong ,or the number of deaths during the masacre.So maybe everything just a propaganda lie? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.47.174 (talkcontribs) 19:32, 14 April 2015‎

    Yes, I think using the official Rwandan government figures is probably not the best approach, as it is not at all clear how they arrived at their figures. Gerard Prunier did a very detailed analysis in his 1995 book on the subject, and came up with a wide range of possibilities from 500,000 to 1 million. That is the headline figured used in the lead here, and across Wikipedia. The 1,174,000 figure should probably not appear as it is not scientifically sourced. But either way, saying "everything is just a propaganda lie" is taking it too far - all analyses I have seen points to a figure of at least 500,000 as a bare minimum.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

    Surly massacre of Tutzi is not propaganda lie, but something is deeply wrong with all numbers we can find on internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Rwanda Just one look on graph on this page..70% of population increase in just 7 years...sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.115.65.8 (talk) 09:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

    Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2015[edit]

    Current text: "...even though he had the authority to do so." (under "Preparation for Genocide") Suggested replacement: "... even though he had the authority to approve it." This should help to clarify the meaning of the statement MagikM18 (talk) 22:02, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

    Yes check.svg Done Stickee (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

    Citation?[edit]

    Where is a citation for this? "In the interwar period, the Catholic Church favored Tutsi enrollment in their mission schools, which taught French and key skills required for civil service and leadership positions." If there is none, it should be removed. 172.10.237.153 (talk) 06:11, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

    @172.10.237.153: I don't know where that sentence came from, it wasn't part of the original text as I wrote it, and is probably dubious. I've removed it from the article. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 16:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

    Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2016[edit]

    I suggest to add a "See also" section, and to include in this section the Bibliography of the Rwandan Genocide entry.Reneza (talk) 04:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC) Reneza (talk) 04:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

    Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per WP:NOTSEEALSO, As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes. Bibliography of the Rwandan Genocide is already linked to in the article as a hatnote underneath the "Media and popular culture" section. Do you have any other suggestions for potential "See also" links? Regards, Mz7 (talk) 06:06, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
    Thanks for the reply. The bibliography is not exclusively linked to Media and popular culture, I would suggest it would be primarily in the see also section, in order to attract more attention, because it is very useful to know where to go in order to know more about the subject. Reneza (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

    External links modified[edit]

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    Question? Archived sources still need to be checked

    Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 17:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

    revisonist accounts vs genocide denial[edit]

    I feel it would be useful to clarify two aspects :

    • historical debates about the genocide (which are primarily adressed by professional/academic historians)
    • genocide denial

    All massive killings and genocide give raise to denial on scope, number of people, identity of killers (see genocide denial). This is different from the on going historical debate on different aspects of a genocide. I suggest to have two separate sections one, the materials which are presently in the "revisionist accounts" section will have to be sorted out in each of the sections, according to their nature. Reneza (talk) 06:55, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

    @Reneza: do you have any feel for the best way to handle this? I've been gradually sifting through and rewriting the general narrative sections in the past year or two, with a view to a tilt at GA and FA status, but I have to admit I'm a bit at a loss what to do about the revisionist stuff, genocide denial, etc. stuff. I think one issue here is that scholarly sources differ widely in how they discuss these issues. Several highly reliable sources mention the possibility that the RPF killed up to 100,000 Hutu for example, although not necessarily ever referring to that as a "double genocide". This section needs to be handled quite carefully to maintain a neutral point of view.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

    External links modified[edit]

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    Add a link to the search engine to brwse ICTR Archives in External links[edit]

    - International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda Archives hosted by the Mechanism for International Criminal Tribunals which has an online search engine called JRAD for Judicial Records and Archives Database — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hieromnemon (talkcontribs) 08:06, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

    Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2016[edit]

    Add in External links the following:
    - International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda Archives
    - Gacaca Courts Archives

    Hieromnemon (talk) 08:10, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

    Yes check.svg Done EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

    External links modified[edit]

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    Requested move 26 March 2016[edit]

    The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

    The result of the move request was: moved. Number 57 13:00, 3 April 2016 (UTC)


    Rwandan GenocideRwandan genocide – There is no basis in sources for treating this as a proper name. The overwhelming majority of better sources (books) use lowercase, treating it a generic or descritpive phrase; per MOS:CAPS, so should we. Dicklyon (talk) 16:25, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

    • Support – It is clear that the lowercase "g" is favoured in sources. Furthermore, it is clear that "Rwandan genocide" is not a proper name, but a descriptive phrase. Per WP:NCCAPS, the "g" should be lowercased. There is no reason to retain the capitalisation. RGloucester 16:56, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
    • Support per above. Seems pretty straightforward. —Torchiest talkedits 16:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

    The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

    Title case[edit]

    @Dicklyon: the recent move has put this out of alignment with almost every other article on conflicts - Finnish Civil War, Bosnian Genocide, Dominican Civil War (1911–12), Silesian Uprisings, etc. I'm just wondering why you feel this one should use sentence case for the title while everything else uses title case? There is a WP:CONSISTENCY issue here. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

    Thanks for asking. Just before this, someone has asked to capitalize a different genocide, "for consistency". That failed, when I and others looked and saw that if consistency is needed it would be more sensible the other way. See Category:Genocides. I think only named military campaigns get treated as proper names; not so much uprising, rebellions, massacres, riots, genocides, and other troubles. Dicklyon (talk) 15:09, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
    @Dicklyon: Yes, you may be right. It might be worth looking at other articles to see which ones would benefit from a move to lower case. I guess this one caught me by surprise mainly because I've been staring at it for so many years while working on this article, that it just seemed wrong. But the ngram thing is quite compelling. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
    I would have supported title case as well. Everyone wants to capitalize things that are important to them or to their interests, but it's rarely reflected in broader usage. If I organize a company picnic next week, the flyer will probably say "2016 Company Picnic", but people at another company will not refer to it as "[that other company's] Company Picnic of 2016". This principle applies pretty broadly. Actual wars tend to get proper name treatment, but even this isn't universal, especially when the combatant sides call it something completely different and those external to the conflict come up with additional descriptive terms for it that don't promote one side or the other.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

    Twa[edit]

    Did hutu kill Twa in 1994 Genocide?--Kaiyr (talk) 11:06, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

    @Kaiyr: many Twa were killed collaterally, although they weren't specifically targeted. I will see about inserting a new section detailing who exactly was killed, or incorporating that into Death Toll, because it's not clear at the moment. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

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